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-- The Sniper and Gun Control
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quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter ... The sad truth is that guns are very much tied to the culture of the US, and simply banning them is not a viable solution to the problem of gun-related violence. ...

thanks for saying this.

one problem i have with others outside of the US judging how 'moronic' or whatever we USers are for having guns fails to realize that no other nation was created in the same way as the US. it goes all the way back to the 15th century, when people started coming here enmasse. while not directly correlatable with feudalism, the lack of a European or Indo-European history here meant it was a blank slate for those early settlers. we all know the Constitution 'protects' gun owners here, but that was an early construction, that due to our culture has pervaded society to this day.

the reason there isnt a 'problem' with guns elsewhere is that these nations werent built on them. im not pro-guns, as i have stated - but that doesnt make them any less of part of who i am and the society i live in. i cant even tell you when the last time i even SAW a non-video game gun...but that statement in itself is prolly incriminating to some staunch republican senator...whatever, and there is of course the flipside, people who go everywhere with guns...its reality|


oooh...nice post Cortex, all further inquiries to this post should be directed there!

Theres quite a few more guns circulating in the UK at the moment however my view on guns in the US, as your saying JM about criminals getting guns yes they probably will, but the guns will be harder to find if an arms dealer knew they'd get 3 years in prison they might stop or keep their services at a minium.

Gun control would probably stop some nut going a rampage in a supermarket or something after catching his wife fucking her fitness trainer. It would stop some kid getting his dads hunting rifle and magnum and opening fire a bunch of fellow students at their school just because someone took the piss out of him. With Gun control it would probably help sto[ these random homocides that are carried by ordinary people, the types of people who you work with, the type of person who's your next door neighbour, their the sort of people who if the government said your caught with a gun your getting 18 months in nick, would happily hand all firearms they posses over to the authorities.

With the criminals yes criminals do kill ordinary people and its sad, but mostly in your worst area's of your city who usually ends up getting killed every night on a pavement or in a house? its usually a criminal, who was killed by a rival gangster, or a crack dealer over some money or disrespect of some kind.

If you did banish guns which you won't you'd probably have more people killed by axes and knives, however theres this mentality about guns and I do understand it, people want to protect themselves from the scum in society because they live in terror that they might end up in a bodybag. To make people feel safe you need to get the criminals by the root, when their young for an example, they need to be taught right from wrong, they need to learn you can make easy money via crime, but theres a chance your going to get caught and all it will lead to is a bodybag or prison. The social problems are what lead to the criminals, how about more resources being pumped into the projects and ghettos, better policing, better security, better teaching, better facilities for the area, more employment the government needs to do them sort of things, even if it took from a group of 200 criminals in a district 50 away from that number its a result.

Also if the police don't dare venture into certain areas of cities, how about the glorius army? you know a group of cops with 9 mm handguns up against some criminal with a fuck off AK 47 don't really work or would intimidate the criminals, if the criminals knew they were up against highly trained, highly motivated, highly mobile, well equiped opponent, I'm sure most of them would give up their criminal career. It would never happen this, as their would probably be a riot, but I'm sure on the gun control issue, a criminal would shit themselves if a unit of 10 well armed soldiers kicked down their door to look for weapons.

quote:

Originally posted by Juricimo i'm looking at it from a "life or death" point of view, but you're looking at it from a "please don't kill me" point of view. i REFUSE to bargain. >JM<

I'd look at it more like you're looking at it from a worst-case scenario "This guy is clearly out for blood, and if I don't act I'm dead" point of view.

Meanwhile, I'm looking at it from a "Why would someone come up to me like this, and what's the best way to escape alive?" perspective.

Basically, IMHO, I'm not giving in to irrational thought about the situation like you seem to be doing. I mean, maybe you can shed some more light on this, but I just don't see the possibility of being spontaneously attacked, for no reason, with no hope of negotiation, as a very likely scenario.

Maybe West Seattle is a rough area, but I've been in pretty seedy neighbourhoods in Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Detroit, and I've never had anything remotely like that happen to me, nor do I know anyone that something like that has happened to.

People act for reasons, granted, those reasons can be out of whack, but I just don't think this "life or death because no negotiation is possible, so shoot while you can" scenario really comes up all that often unless you go out looking for it.

Someone approaching you with a gun is doing it for a reason, if you can understand what their reasoning is you can likely get some sort of resolution without getting plugged along the way. If you pull a gun you're going to immediately make them react emotionally as well, which, as I said, doesn't seem to be increasing the liklihood of surviving the situation, which I assume is what we'd be aiming for.

On a related note, I just saw Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" movie this evening, and he brings up a good point in that the US culture is permeated by fear, fear of being randomly raped, murdered, and so forth. Fear of having your kids stolen, fear of terrorist attacks, fear of minority ethnic groups (helped along by lovely crap on Fox like "Cops") even going down to the corporate inspired fears of having pimples, or of wearing "uncool" clothes, and so forth.

People are buying and keeping guns largely out of that fear. Gun sales spiked over 70% in the wake of the 11.09.01 attacks, and people seem to be taking Juricimo's attitude, that other people are to be feared and distrusted, that the best policy is to have a gun, because then you'll be in control if anything goes wrong...but, IMHO, (and I'll steal a line here) it's nothing but an illusion of safety.

Not to mention the fact that a nation full of paranoid and afraid people are the last group that *I'd* want to see armed en masse...

DJ O'Callaghan brings up a good point as well, that if people don't own guns to begin with, you don't have spontaneous crimes committed with them like your crimes of passion, like your school shootings, and so forth.

I know people tend to bring up the possibility of other murder weapons in these debates, but I still defend my stance that guns are one of the most impersonal killing devices ever created, and it makes it a little too easy for my tastes, it doesn't give you a chance to think about what you're doing like a knife, garotte, and so forth would.

Finally, a brief thought on Biznology's post which mentioned the right to bear arms...Moore brought that up in his movie as well, and what he had to say was interesting to me, the comparison is a little extreme, but it serves as an illustration.

Basically, he was talking with James Nichols, the brother of Terry Nichols, aka, 1 of the guys who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma.

Anyhow, they got onto the right to bear arms piece, and Mike brought up the fact that that doesn't clearly line out the fact that "arms" = "guns" like seems to be assumed lately.

Moore's example was that you could easily define weapons grade plutonium as "arms", but no one in the country (well, most rational people at least...) would argue that the constitution gives people the right to hold onto that.

Once you agree, that yes, there *can* be limitations, for public safety, then you can see how that particular argument has some holes when it's applied to guns as well.

Just food for thought, honestly, if the public opinion turned against guns tomorrow it's not as though an amendment in the constitution would stop gun control. Amendments only exist because they're still popular, and they regularly end up being sacrificed in the name of safety, I don't see any reason why guns couldn't be yet another in a long line of such sacrifices if the people were up for it.

In any case I have to recommend the movie to anyone who's been involved in this debate. It's still fairly obscure, but another very interesting piece by Moore which makes you think, and rethink things.

the argument that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" has its valid points, but another issue about guns in the US is registration. i don't see why everyone is so against registration. even if it were to curb violent crime by a fraction it would be well worth it. the nra wants everyone to believe that registration is some kind of infringement on their right to bear arms but how ridiculous is it for the government NOT to control something that is designed to kill things??

is it an infrigement of rights to register your car? your business? then why is it such a big deal for the government to know how many guns you own? if law abiding citizens are using guns for self defence then why would they have anything to fear from gun control?

i don't understand how the government can have such a hard line against legalizing pot, but allow people to roam the streets with unregistered weapons. makes no sense.

You guys don't get it.

I have a gun, a very nice one, actually. Mine is a Desert Eagle .45. I seriously doubt many cat burglars have a larger gun, but does it matter if they have a larger one? lol.

Anyway, I did not get my gun from fucking Wal-Mart. I got mine through a connection. Yes, off the streets. I have my gun for my protection. I have things in my apt. that people should not and will not fuck with. And I deal with things that requires people being straight with you. I have no intention at all of killing anyone.

Now if there was a law that said, with the exception of military and law enforcment, no one could own, buy, or sell guns...guess what...I'd still have mine! My 3 friends that have them would still have theirs!

So find it VERY hard to beleive that the sniper would go to Wal-Mart and be like... "What? I can't get an assult rifle? Damn, I guess I just won't go on that killing spree"

BULLSHIT!

"The Right to Bear Arms" I'm sure our forfathers knew what the fuck they were talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by SpykeChyld You guys don't get it. I have a gun, a very nice one, actually. Mine is a Desert Eagle .45. I seriously doubt many cat burglars have a larger gun, but does it matter if they have a larger one? lol. Anyway, I did not get my gun from fucking Wal-Mart. I got mine through a connection. Yes, off the streets. I have my gun for my protection. I have things in my apt. that people should not and will not fuck with. And I deal with things that requires people being straight with you. I have no intention at all of killing anyone. Now if there was a law that said, with the exception of military and law enforcment, no one could own, buy, or sell guns...guess what...I'd still have mine! My 3 friends that have them would still have theirs! So find it VERY hard to beleive that the sniper would go to Wal-Mart and be like... "What? I can't get an assult rifle? Damn, I guess I just won't go on that killing spree" BULLSHIT! "The Right to Bear Arms" I'm sure our forfathers knew what the fuck they were talking about.

sure dude, and America has major problems with guns nowadays and Europe doesn't have major problems with guns, so can you tell me why that is??

You know what the problem is in America with guns.

I have been to America twice, a total of 6 weeks, once when I was 10 and once when I was 15. I live in Holland for 18 years now (minus the weeks I've been on vacation to other countries). I KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY A FUCKING GUN IN AMERICA AND I DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE WHERE I CAN BUY ONE HERE IN HOLLAND!!!!!

sad isn't it?

it makes me just damn pissed that some of you think it's cool to have a gun at home, you are going to use it eventually and that is just sick

I don't fucking think it's cool at all.

I have it because I live very close to a very bad neighborhood and I know half the people there have them and would have no problem at all putting a bullet through my head for my damn TV!

You've been to America twice? wow, I'm impressed! LOL. Yeah, there are gun stores on the corners! SO!?!? THATS NOT WHERE CRIMINALS BUY GUNS!

The gun stores are where people buy guns for hunting or protection. Someone does not go to the gun store when they are gonna go kill someone.

Honestly, thats why I have a gun off the street. Cus I know if someone fucks with me enough where I DO have to pull that trigger the gun is gonna be clean. Every criminal knows that.

Thats the whole point. As long as you can get guns off the street it doesn't matter how many gun shops there are or how many gun laws are made.

Look at weed! It is illegal here. You can't get it from a store. But guess what? That don't mean 1/2 the country ain't potheads!

it doesn't matter if the criminals buy their guns on the street, it is a combination off both, you can buy them on the street and you can buy them in a shop, both pretty easy

The U.S. made it tolerant having a gun, "So why not have one". The reason why there are so many shootings in the US is because loads of people have a gun, they even carry it with them on the streets, it is very easy to use that gun too, why not use it when you are REALLY pissed huh?

the most stupid thing is to use it when you get robbed (or something like that) they have a gun, you have a gun, you don't want to give them your money and you grab your own gun, you are killed because you tried to grab your gun, the man who want to rob you wouldn't have killed you when you just gave him his money. but because you have that gun you are dead

America shouldn't moan about the amount of cops being killed or about the amount of shootings they have, it is all their own stupid fault, and they can't turn it back anymore. in fact they shouldn't moan about the sniper-killings last month, a psycho can easily buy that sniper gun to kill people because of the absurd standing against guns from the government of the US of A

I realise that you don't see my point, you even own a gun yourself, so I am just going to stop wit this conversation about guns because it is useless

quote:

HAVE A FUCKING CLUE WHERE I CAN BUY ONE HERE IN HOLLAND!!!!!

I do. No problem.

But on topic: the times of the Wild West are 150 years ago. Get civilised! You get a 100.000 Euro (max) fine when they catch you with a gun here.

Pepperspray? 10.000 Euro.

A good thing. Guns are for warfare, not for personal use.

quote:

Originally posted by Juricimo guns dont kill people, people kill people. if someone does want a gun, they dont have to go through all the legal bullshit to get one. it is just as easy if not easier to get them illegally off the street. so criminals, those that want to shoot and kill, WILL shoot and kill regardless. yeah, i dont mind stricter gun-obtaining laws and such, but those that are legally able to possess one should have the right to. but like i said, criminals will get their guns and do whatever they want regardless. >JM<

I totally agree with you dude. It's not the guns - it's the people. Even if you restricted guns in the US, people would still find ways to get them, and use them in crimes. I am for strict gun laws and background checks, but in the end, is it really possible to ban guns in the US? Probably not..

quote:

Originally posted by jploveparade I do. No problem.

you live in Amsterdam, when I would live in Amsterdam I would probably know too, I meant where I live. I live in a small town with 30.000 inhabitants, and in the neighbourhood of 3 rather big cities, and I really don't have a clue where I can buy a gun in my "neighbourhood"

Actually, the best place to buy a gun is in Belgium.

But in Holland Yugoslavians have the best stuff. Just go into any place where they go (restaurants/clubs/cafe's) and talk to any guy with a leather jacket.

Prices: around 750 euro for a nice semi-automatic. A grenade is 25 euro.

In Amsterdam it's easy: Ask any dealer (Surinam) for 'the boss' and he'll have connections.

In my gabber period I was at the Red Light District a lot, got to know one or two of these 'bosses' (dont ask why)

Learned a lot about the scene, which is also very helpfull in my study

quote:

Originally posted by jploveparade I do. No problem. But on topic: the times of the Wild West are 150 years ago. Get civilised! You get a 100.000 Euro (max) fine when they catch you with a gun here. Pepperspray? 10.000 Euro. A good thing. Guns are for warfare, not for personal use.

10.000 Euro fine for carrying pepperspray and 100.000 for getting caught with a gun? Are you serious? Thats sick!

quote:

Originally posted by Blik you live in Amsterdam, when I would live in Amsterdam I would probably know too, I meant where I live. I live in a small town with 30.000 inhabitants, and in the neighbourhood of 3 rather big cities, and I really don't have a clue where I can buy a gun in my "neighbourhood"

so basically youre saying you live in someplace that is *nothing* like any bad part of America.

everyone here, by now, should realize that this ISNT an 'im right, youre wrong' thing. its cultural. ive said it before. no one in America is 'stupid' for having a gun if their life requires it. i certainly know some stupid Americans with guns because they *think* they need it, and its not the same thing. the same goes for you. we USers arent telling you youre stupid for NOT having a gun, cause we know you dont need it.

im not pro gun tho, remember that|

quote:

Originally posted by biznology so basically youre saying you live in someplace that is *nothing* like any bad part of America. everyone here, by now, should realize that this ISNT an 'im right, youre wrong' thing. its cultural. ive said it before. no one in America is 'stupid' for having a gun if their life requires it. i certainly know some stupid Americans with guns because they *think* they need it, and its not the same thing. the same goes for you. we USers arent telling you youre stupid for NOT having a gun, cause we know you dont need it. im not pro gun tho, remember that|

Amsterdam also isn't a bad place, at least when you stay in the centre of Amsterdam. the places where I've been in America also weren't bad places, and still you see a gunshop on the corner of the street

So in America it's like, "wherever you live you can easily buy a gun", In Europe it's difficult to buy a gun, wherever you live (when you have 'connections' it's easier though, but most people don't them)

10.000 euro is a maximum. 500 Euro is the normal fine for having teargas. But when you are caught a second time, you're in trouble.

Having a gun will cost you about 500o euro. But again, don't get caught a second time and the gun better be never used in criminal activities.

a lot of you europeans are sounding really hypocritical...
first my stance... i belive guns control should be greater increased (as in registration and such) here in the states but i still belive every man should have the right to own one.

ok heres why i see some of you not making much sense.
most people here i've see are for legalization of drugs. even though i do agree the should be, in my book i see drugs are illegal in order to save the lives of others... so that people who are high wont get into a car or do some other stupid act that would end up killing or hurting someone else. however you are for drugs cause you say every man has a right to do what ever he wants to his own body and that most people are responsible. how does this differ with guns? so by banning all guns you think it will solve the problem? has it worked that way with drugs? no the is strong power behing the "guns dont kill people, people kill people".

should we ban all alcohol just because a select irresponsible few drive home drunk and kill people? should we ban guns because a select irresponisble few use them to kill people?

I think that you under estimate the ability for someone to aquire a gun. I mean, drugs are illegal, but how hard is it to hook yourself up with some pot, crack, or even heroin? It's not. That's the problem. When there is a criminal demand for something like that, there will be supply.

see the hypocricy or do you think im blind?

Guns kill OTHER people, drugs don't

quote:

Originally posted by jploveparade Guns kill OTHER people, drugs don't

wrong again. drugs *in general* dont kill or affect other people. but drugs can lead you to kill other people(thru inebriation), or can be used maliciously to kill others.

guns fit that exact description. just like many guns never kill a single person, most drugs do not. when someone chooses to, or in an accident its the exact same way for both!

guns are a way of life here, and its a way that Europeans dont understand because the US is completely different that Europe, and being here on 2 occasions cant enlighten you. like i said, im not for guns, i believe them to be dangerous, but its just how USers are - regardless of what the rest of the world thinks.

weve been the most successful nation in our short run(to this point) and guns have been a part of it, so im not sure why its so terrible|

quote:

weve been the most successful nation in our short run

Succesfull in what? We are one of the smallest countries in the world but we're the 8th economy in the world.

Why? Instead of showing how bad ass we are with guns( like we did in the 17th century) we focused on our economy.

Dutch companies are one of the biggest investors in the world (Shell, Unilever, Ahold, Philips, ABN-Amro etc)

If we had gun laws like in the US in Europe, our continent wouldn't excist anymore.

The US attitude against Europe is way out of line. I used to support republican ideas, but the last 5 years it seems like American politicians are more stupid than ever.

Snipers, people killing kids at school, KKK who can say what they want, Police brutality.

What a place to live, America.

quote:

Originally posted by jploveparade The US attitude against Europe is way out of line. I used to support republican ideas, but the last 5 years it seems like American politicians are more stupid than ever.

Well, I can't disagree with your assessment of American politicians. But much of Europe seems to have forgotten the lesson we were supposed to have learned from World War II, namely that some problems cannot be solved without the use of force. And also, the self-righteous way that some (probably just a vocal minority) Europeans express their opinions while not contributing anything to maintaining international stability is irritating - and no doubt the source of the resentment many US citizens hold against Europe.

I won't attempt to justify all the foreign-policy decisions of the US government, because a lot of them don't make any sense to me either, but most European countries just appear to be the source of complaints - they either don't offer an alternative, or offer an alternative that can't be rationally justified. As much as I don't trust the politicians here in the US, at least they try to do what they think is right. Most European politicians just seem like they're to timid of being controversial to ever do the things that need to be done, so they just try to maintain the status-quo.

So true. But look at Eastern Europe. Did we use force to stop communism? The Hungarian, East-German, Rumanian and Czech people didn't need guns to start a revolution.

i thought they shot to death the romanian. over and over.
ciacescu or something.

gun control in america will not work because of the second amendment.
the wild west is over, but because of the the said amendment, which gives us the right to bear arms against oppressors - including the government of these united states - is a system of checks and balances against any government or powers that be, that try and limit, or infringe upon any of the rights of it's citizens. americans by and large are stupid because they don't understand how the government operates.

gun control in terms of a national or state gun registry can't be passed into law because gun owners have to give up their right to privacy. if worse comes to worse, and the citizens take up arms to throw george w out of washington, the government would have the upper hand because they will no who has the guns and take them out.

you want more government in terms of services and aids but at the same time you want less government looking over your shoulder, pay less taxes - you guys know that the top 1% pay less than the avg person, or nothing at all. how would you all react if in this global economy, they inserted chips in your computers to monitor for filesharing, pornography, scan your e-mail for suspected terrorism,...? but, being good law abiding citizens, we shouldn't have any worries about big brother looking over our shoulders. but what if said actions do occur, george w panics and sends snipers to shoot down all gun owners before an impending revolution. this isn't fair to all the gun owners who abide by the laws.

yes this country's messed up.
but that's how the government wants it. this way they get to be in charge with the masses confused, and killing each other. if we took a time out from killing and fighting other, and wise up to our government's actions, they'd be scared. the government gave us too many rights but for the most part are too dumb to use it.

$0.02

nice, never thought about it in a checks & balance way before... interesting to hear a valid arguement agianst gun registration.

jp you said "Guns kill OTHER people, drugs don't"
well drugs and their consequences can kill OTHER people and/or the users themselves, straight up thats a fact.
however, you're agianst outlawing drugs because you feel that the responisble people have a right to do what ever they like to their own body, especially when it makes them feel good (right?). i still dont see how that is different with guns. to some people having a gun makes them feel good. some like to shoot skeet in a farm, some like to hunt deer, some like the sense of security it gives them, other use it as a stress relief in a shooting range. should people give up the right to that kind of happeniness when it doesnt hurt anyone else? just becuase a select few use it for criminal acts does that mean we should ban all guns and take away that happiness from others? see where im taking this? maybe we should outlaw baseball bats form now on because in the hands of the wrong person they be used for vandalising and even to kill people....

quote:

Originally posted by jploveparade Succesfull in what? We are one of the smallest countries in the world but we're the 8th economy in the world. Why? Instead of showing how bad ass we are with guns( like we did in the 17th century) we focused on our economy. Dutch companies are one of the biggest investors in the world (Shell, Unilever, Ahold, Philips, ABN-Amro etc) What a place to live, America.

jp, we are where you were at in the 1600's. where the english was in the 17-1800-ish. you guys have been around a lot longer than we have. you've also had the time to learn from your mistakes. you didn't offer the british any help on their rise or how to stay on top, but took your money and invested in british enterprises to get richer through their hard work, pull your investments out, let them collapse, invest somewhere else...
this is not an attack on you, just going over history. back in the nineties the joke around here was "which downtown building was not owned by the japanese." it's business. our government, our society, we are learning as we go along. you guys in europe are just afraid that we're going to blow ourselves up and you along with us. heh heh..

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