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-- Religion in our Culture
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quote:

Originally posted by SpykeChyld Yes, I have one that I love. Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot move it? If he can then there is now a rock he can't move...boom...he isn't all powerfull. If he cannot then, well, he isn't all powerfull either.

That's actually a very rational argument. You're demonstrating the self-contradictory nature of a being that is "all-powerful" and thereby asserting that such a being could not exist, because it would form a contradiction.

btw... love the post Izzy

quote:

Originally posted by SpykeChyld Yes, I have one that I love. Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot move it? If he can then there is now a rock he can't move...boom...he isn't all powerfull. If he cannot then, well, he isn't all powerfull either. Too bad we don't have a christian in the forum to see his reaction

I'm not exactly a Christian but I can give you a Christian reaction to it, since this is a classic, classic question.

The answer, as given by Aquinas (?) in short, was that such a thing isn't possible, but that we shouldn't see that a limitation on God's power.

God can't make a rock that he can't lift, any more than he could create a triangle which had inside angles of over 180 degrees.

Similarly, God can't create a universe that wasn't created by God.

Such a thing is simply not possible, so to consider it a limitation is faulty logic.

:shrug:

quote:

such things are not possible. To consider it a limitation is faulty logic

To consider that question is to consider an oxymoron. If it is not possible, it is a limitation. No 2 ways about it, no questions. If it is not possible then it is a limitation.

quote:

Originally posted by SpykeChyld To consider that question is to consider an oxymoron. If it is not possible, it is a limitation. No 2 ways about it, no questions. If it is not possible then it is a limitation.

If God exists, He must transcend logic. He must be able to do the impossible. Such is the nature of a being defined such as He.

but why would god create such a rock?
to give himself a cranial hernia?

i'm probably missing something here.

^^^^^^


Assuming that God exists would have to basically prove everything thing that is, uhh... well, isn't.

Would this include God or would this just negate everything in the known universe EXCEPT God?

When faced with this logic you must ask yourself...If all was negated except God, but we are still here, would we all be part of God?

Then you move on to, Well, if I'm athiest and we are all part of God, then do I exist in the first place?



Or maybe I just think too much

The genuinely religous are without religion.

here's something to think about

First off, I am atheist (Whatever that means to you) I have no deity or god to preach about/practice too.
I respect other peoples choice in
religion, as long as they respect mine.I see neither race, colour nor creed as a social issue/boundry.
However, it is a fact that religion has caused more death/hurt/pain/controversy than anything else on the face of this planet.So the question begs, what do we do? Where do we go?
Faith is something most people have, what you have faith in, is your choice.

I choose music as my faith, I also think it should be a religion.
We are born into this world and one of the first things we experience is music, the sound of our first song is usually our first cry, the sound of
our mothers/fathers voices cooing and awwing is the first aria we
experience, the background harmonics of the people taking care of us is the first symphony. People singing to us to comfort, reciting lullabies to keep us calm and serene.
From there we are always surrounded by it, wrapped in its melodies and vocal caress, it is used to placate us into sleep, used to assist us rest our weary heads.

It is always something we find pleasant, and never does us any harm, we never fear it or shy away from it.

Music follows us throughout every part of our lives, it never leaves our side. Think about it for a moment, every major event in our lives has music involved somewhere, in one way shape or form. From birth, to birthdays, to graduations, weddings, funerals and most defining moments.
We celebrate to it, we commiserate with it, we wrap ourselves up in momentsof time, by remembering pieces of it, many memories are triggered from hearing it, we associate so much, and identify with it.
It defines where we belong, or who we belong to as we get older and develop our own personal taste in it.
Yes it can trigger memories of pain and emotion, but it can also bring us to euphoric joy.It envelops us it its arms, and never lets us go.
From birth to death it is a constant, when not much else can lay that claim.
Religion and gods are often not there when you cry Salva Mea,but it would not take long for you to track down a piece of music called the same.
Strange that most religions use music, yet it still is not allowed to
bridge the many differences between them.
I have seen a sea of thousands of people before me, celebrating in union 2the sound of there favourite dj's, dancing and screaming,
chanting out the words. No fighting, no bloodshed, all coming together
for the common cause.
To share in the music of there choice.
No holy symbol needed, just a soundwave bringing them together.
How many people get together at a weekend and go clubbing, getting
together surrounded by music, and happier for it. How many of these people have mental enhancing experiences getting lost in that music, loosing themselves completly too it, but benefitting from it in so many ways.

Maybe not the answer for everyone, but I know which one keeps me sane.
Young or old, does not matter, black, white, pink or green makes no
difference. Even deaf people can still feel music. It breaks down so many barriers and brings so many people together.
That is why I have music as my faith.
Works for me

One of the most puzzling thing I find about religious people, mostly christians in general, is that they say it takes faith and an open heart and mind to be a christian, yet their hearts and minds are completely closed to all other possabilities. Ive NEVER met a christian who would openly admit that there is a remote chance he may be wrong. They are convinced as if their religion is proven fact.

Anyways, religion in general is skewed. Can you really trust that over thousands of years and literally millions of translations, the bible and other holy books havent been warped around maliciously? You hear about televangelist scams and shit like that all the time. I cant recall much, but around the time Constantine took over rome, he modified a lot of the Christian religion to better control the masses. Hell, among other things, was added, and things like Jesus' talkings of reincarnation were taken out. This isnt bullshit, this is real history that took place. I cant remember much else.

Just some thoughts...

Re: Religion in our Culture

quote:

Originally posted by SpykeChyld OK. In the past 2 days I've had so many people come to me and tell me that I should pray for this and that God will do that and blah. Well, I am athiest. I'm a very nice athiest, but I'm athiest. This seems to make people very angry, lol. I guess all I'm asking in this thread is whether you all think that Religion should be pushed onto people.

Organzed Religion is evil, and lots of Scripture is mundane or nonsensical due to teh ye olde English... I mean, if you need the ten commandments to tell you that murder or stealing is wrong you're screwed up in the head.

However the idea of a god or gods, or goddess, etc, does not bother me. I dont believe in hell however, I find the idea of hell evil in itself.

It's sad in a way... Religion came up with some noble ideas to live up to, yet so many were killed in the name of religion, and that fact alone makes it difficult for me to endorse religion.

quote:

Originally posted by nrjizer Ive NEVER met a christian who would openly admit that there is a remote chance he may be wrong. They are convinced as if their religion is proven fact.

isn't this the case with most religions though? I'm sure it's not unique to the Christian religion.

lol @ Izzy. That made me laugh out loud, better than most of the things in the humour forum. You come up wtih that yourself?

everyone should start their own religion, you get a nifty tax-break

quote:

Originally posted by quddha lol @ Izzy. That made me laugh out loud, better than most of the things in the humour forum. You come up wtih that yourself?

no i wish i was funny enough to invent something like that it was sent to me by someone by email and i've kept it for the past year... finally found a good place for its use

quote:

Originally posted by Verona^My isn't this the case with most religions though? I'm sure it's not unique to the Christian religion.

Yup, the same is true for Islam. When I used to be Islamic, everyone (Muslims) would be saying that they FOLLOW the Qur'an as their "guide to life" and everything outside of it is wrong. You can't eat pork, have a girlfriend/boyfriend, etc. Who made all this up? CERTAINALY not what they call "Allah" (God in Arabic). It was all man-made thoughts. THAT'S ALL.

From a Christian

As a Christian I�m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this.

Religion is entwined in our history. During the early ages Christianity played a vital role. Monasteries were areas of knowledge and many monks spent their lives composing, translating and coping written texts. Literacy was very low and monasteries were the areas in which intellectual growth occurred.

Descartes is a well known philosopher who argued that God is real. Humans gain knowledge by experience and all that they know is what they have seen, done or heard. All these things are tangible. However God is not. So how do we know that a perfect being exists? God has instilled in each of our minds that He does exists because without Him doing so then we would not have an understanding of a higher power. Atheists claim they don�t believe in God, yet how would they know that a high power is with us if God didn�t instill these ideas.

Weber, a sociologist claimed that without Christianity Capitalism would not have come to be. When Luther posted 95 theses and broke away from the Catholic Church he created new denominations of Christianity. From this a man named Calvin derived from the Bible the idea in prep-destination. This means that God already knows those souls who are going to be saved. Not everyone would be saved however some people who be saved. The Calvinists figured that a way to find out if they were saved was be success while on earth. Many Calvinists began to enter the business sector and worked very hard to create lots of money. There were not interested in the profit rather they were interested in that if they got that profit which would tell them that they would be saved. Success on earth was a sign from God that Heaven would be their destination.

Having been an atheist who has �see the light� I understand both sides. I have no intention of promoting Christianity; rather I want all of you to be more informed about the religion. In fact, many Christians say they don�t belong to a religion because religion is a social construct. Rather it is a relationship with God that transcends everything.

I could quote the Bible yet that would have little effect on any atheists because most don�t understand that it is more then a book. Rather this quote puts every thing into perspective.

You can live a few days without water, a few weeks without food but not a moment without faith!!!

Hope my thoughts enter yours and you can see religion from a different angle!

God Bless,
Mark

Re: From a Christian

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave As a Christian I�m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this. Religion is entwined in our history. During the early ages Christianity played a vital role. Monasteries were areas of knowledge and many monks spent their lives composing, translating and coping written texts. Literacy was very low and monasteries were the areas in which intellectual growth occurred. Descartes is a well known philosopher who argued that God is real. Humans gain knowledge by experience and all that they know is what they have seen, done or heard. All these things are tangible. However God is not. So how do we know that a perfect being exists? God has instilled in each of our minds that He does exists because without Him doing so then we would not have an understanding of a higher power. Atheists claim they don�t believe in God, yet how would they know that a high power is with us if God didn�t instill these ideas. Weber, a sociologist claimed that without Christianity Capitalism would not have come to be. When Luther posted 95 theses and broke away from the Catholic Church he created new denominations of Christianity. From this a man named Calvin derived from the Bible the idea in prep-destination. This means that God already knows those souls who are going to be saved. Not everyone would be saved however some people who be saved. The Calvinists figured that a way to find out if they were saved was be success while on earth. Many Calvinists began to enter the business sector and worked very hard to create lots of money. There were not interested in the profit rather they were interested in that if they got that profit which would tell them that they would be saved. Success on earth was a sign from God that Heaven would be their destination. Having been an atheist who has �see the light� I understand both sides. I have no intention of promoting Christianity; rather I want all of you to be more informed about the religion. In fact, many Christians say they don�t belong to a religion because religion is a social construct. Rather it is a relationship with God that transcends everything. I could quote the Bible yet that would have little effect on any atheists because most don�t understand that it is more then a book. Rather this quote puts every thing into perspective. You can live a few days without water, a few weeks without food but not a moment without faith!!! Hope my thoughts enter yours and you can see religion from a different angle! God Bless, Mark

i follow much of what you are saying, insomuch as i understand it.

your 'facts' youve provided are only in support of Christianity. this is one of the issues that was just brought up, and one of the issues that concerns me with organized religion - and specifically Christianity. religion has ALWAYS been a part of human society, at least as long as culture has played a part. the same goes for storytelling, drug use, socialization.

it wasnt the 'breakthrough' of Christianity that spurred some great change in the world. to this point it has become possibly the most influential religion in the world, but that does not mean it was the only one - nor even 'correct'.

you point to Weber as influential in documenting the formation of capitalism in regards to Christianity, but this is negligible point. most Western philosophy has been heavily skewed Christian due to the roots of those writing, and having the ability to write about it. Christianity may have had a part in forming our economy, but it was not the only factor - just as religion is socially constructed, so are all our notions of 'economy'.

i see your reasoning, and its a clever one that takes into account the more philosophical aspects of religion without preaching. i just do not at all agree that one must have a Christian or recognized God in order to have 'faith'.

i think you can have faith in something or your own life without reverting to socially constructed fables and institutions.

thats a highly inflammatory statement to most believers, but it is what i believe


my question for you is: how/why would one 'see the light' and be drawn towards associating differently? (im interested as an agnostic/atheist/unassociated person)

Re: From a Christian

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave As a Christian I�m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this.

Religion itself is not evil. It is the notion of accepting things on faith that is evil. When one accepts something on faith, he or she cannot truly be analyzing it in any rational manner - if they were, it would not be faith. When people have faith in good, productive things, there is no problem. But faith can just as easily be used to cause people to do otherwise unjustifiable acts of violence and hatred. Manifested in such perversion of religion as the crusades, terrorism, and honor killings in Jordan and Pakistan, we can see that while religion can be a powerful tool for good, it is not worth the risk that it might be used for evil.

Imagine someone invented a machine that would allow one to control the minds of others. Clearly this machine would have a multitude of extremely beneficial uses, such as ending conflicts, promoting charity, etc. Used prudently and benevolently, it could solve almost all the worlds problems. Yet, the potential for it being abused is so great, and such a terrifying prospect, that I think we can agree that humanity is better off without this machine. For this reason, I think humanity is better off without religion.

Cheers,

Arbiter

Civilzation itself is based on this "machine". This shows that the machine isn't just something nice with bad side-effects but one of the hallmarks of what we are today. And remember the drug discussion where u pointed out that abolishing drugs due to the possibility of negative effects isn't a valid argument (kid burning himself analogy etc. etc.).
There will always be thieves but o cant abloish property nor legalize crime so u need institutions, laws to controll. Okay, in the case of religion thats impossible.
No point made, bye

What gets to me is that Christianity is based on a simple book, the Bible. Writen thousands of years ago, by men.
I find it interesting that females were not part of the writing of the bible.. perhaps things may be percieved differently under the views of a female.....?
But yeah, anyway, these words written in the Bible are supposedly the words of God, but still these words are writen by the hands of a human.. no doubt that Gods words are distorted, and interpreted incorrectly in some instances..
I mean, this point is proven with all the different types of Christianity. We have roman catholic, russian/greek/serb orthodox, protestant, 7th day adventist (or some shit).. Each group interprets the bible differently, so who's to say which way is right? I dunno, confusing topic...

I've got another "theory" too, which some of youz might find interesting.. What would you say that religion, in its current form, is the work of the devil??? I mean, it's obvious that religion has caused soooo much trouble throughout history, true? I dont think it's that stupid to think that the devil has manipulated the human race into turning to good words of God into the work of evil. i mean, it's not that hard for the devil to do, right?
Lets also remember the interesting point that the devil, and subsequently hell itself, was created by God himself... apparently anyway..

I dunno, this whole religion thing screws with my mind.. too complicated.
ciao

quote:

Originally posted by Dupz I've got another "theory" too, which some of youz might find interesting.. What would you say that religion, in its current form, is the work of the devil??? I mean, it's obvious that religion has caused soooo much trouble throughout history, true? I dont think it's that stupid to think that the devil has manipulated the human race into turning to good words of God into the work of evil. i mean, it's not that hard for the devil to do, right? Lets also remember the interesting point that the devil, and subsequently hell itself, was created by God himself... apparently anyway..

the same arguements can be used for a devil.

there is no proof for god just like there is no proof of a devil. when you die it is the end, get over it.

Re: From a Christian

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave As a Christian I�m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this.

Having been a former Catholic who has "seen the light," I too understand both sides.

The act of faith implies not knowing. Therefore, to put faith into a certain belief or method carries along with it the possibility of error.

quote:

Religion is entwined in our history. During the early ages Christianity played a vital role. Monasteries were areas of knowledge and many monks spent their lives composing, translating and coping written texts. Literacy was very low and monasteries were the areas in which intellectual growth occurred.

On the contrary, throughout history religion has always served the purpose of seperating people from people. Outwardly it brings about divisions between people, classifications, wars and destruction, which is obvious to anyone who is observant. Inwardly, this identification with an idea is a form of self-expansion. If I identify myself with the greater, it gives me gratification, a purpose, a false sense of well being.

quote:

Descartes is a well known philosopher who argued that God is real. Humans gain knowledge by experience and all that they know is what they have seen, done or heard. All these things are tangible. However God is not. So how do we know that a perfect being exists? God has instilled in each of our minds that He does exists because without Him doing so then we would not have an understanding of a higher power. Atheists claim they don�t believe in God, yet how would they know that a high power is with us if God didn�t instill these ideas.

Why does this "higher power" have to take a Christian form? In his search for the proof of God, Descartes actually seperated himself from the ideas and traditions of the church by trying to rationally prove that God exists based solely on logic. Infact, Descartes was one of the first figures in European history to do so. His "medidation discourses" started the rationalism movement, which has nothing to do with mysticism or Christian theology.

Also, Descartes did not succeed in proving that god exists. All of his arguments (ie Cosmological, Ontological) have notable objections. For one, check the nihilst argument which states that knowledge does not exist. This argument is somewhat extreme but it gives a good comparison. Also, check Guanilo's objection for the argument you mention.

take it easy,
-dave

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant And remember the drug discussion where u pointed out that abolishing drugs due to the possibility of negative effects isn't a valid argument (kid burning himself analogy etc. etc.).

That's true, but I think it's a situation where you have to draw a line. It's like the right to bear arms. I doubt even the staunchest gun control advocate would agree that we ought to ban butter knives because they could be used to kill another person, and likewise I suspect none of the NRA's most extreme members would extend the right to bear arms to all citizens such as to include the right to bear nuclear arms.

Matches and drugs can be harmful, but on a much, much smaller scale than, say, weapons of mass destruction. That is why I would argue that the risk incurred by their legalization is justifiable in the name of freedom. But in some cases, the risk is simply too great to be justified, if that makes any sense.

Religion is an issue I'm really torn on because it's so hard to categorize. I mean, you can be "spiritual" but not "religious." When does faith become dangerous? Well, generally it seems to where poverty is high and education is poor, but in reality the issue may be far more complex than that (i.e. it wouldn't explain the perverse attitudes of the extreme religious right in the United States). Religion manifests itself in so many ways, some great, some horrible. I personally think we as humans can reach a point of understanding where religion is no longer so dangerous. But when I look at the world around me, I must conclude that we are far from that point at the moment.

Re: From a Christian

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave As a Christian I�m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this. Religion is entwined in our history. During the early ages Christianity played a vital role. Monasteries were areas of knowledge and many monks spent their lives composing, translating and coping written texts. Literacy was very low and monasteries were the areas in which intellectual growth occurred. Mark

entwined in many ways, see the Spanish Inquisition or the Catholic church's secret meetings to help Hitler arrange the extermination of the jews... religion in and of itself may not be evil, but organization religion is guilty of some of the most heinous crimes against humanity imaginable. This makes it a little harder to read scripture that inspired such acts.

Re: From a Christian

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave Descartes is a well known philosopher who argued that God is real. Humans gain knowledge by experience and all that they know is what they have seen, done or heard. All these things are tangible. However God is not. So how do we know that a perfect being exists? God has instilled in each of our minds that He does exists because without Him doing so then we would not have an understanding of a higher power. Atheists claim they don�t believe in God, yet how would they know that a high power is with us if God didn�t instill these ideas. God Bless, Mark

oh Descartes is classic, so somewhere along the line there must have been elves, dragons, the tooth fairy, Zeus, and all sorts of mythical creatures because we learned of these things by having experienced them. Ever hear of an imagination, you know, thinking up goofy shit. I guess the Greek gods must have been real to, cause you know, the Greeks experienced them first hand. LOL

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