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-- Quote by comedian Dennis Miller about Palestinians
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look, there have been a lot of misfacts and falsehoods stated here, and I would like to get a chance to dismiss and prove them wrong, however my weeks right now have been extremly busy and will endure for another week this way as I finish my finals here in university.

but anyone fimiliar with any of my other posts should be able to find out the solution to the question they arise.

give me time, i will give you answers.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus look, there have been a lot of misfacts and falsehoods stated here, and I would like to get a chance to dismiss and prove them wrong, however my weeks right now have been extremly busy and will endure for another week this way as I finish my finals here in university. but anyone fimiliar with any of my other posts should be able to find out the solution to the question they arise. give me time, i will give you answers.

dude i know you're gonna quote every single word i said but you have to admit i said the truth

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 dude i know you're gonna quote every single word i said but you have to admit i said the truth

no not u, the others

i agree with fastmp3 halamlek...a jew doesnt have to be israeli here in america we got lots of jews and they never been to israel...i am egyptian and so arab and most of u will say oh then u must be a muslim.nope i am actually catholic..so the crap of of one ethnicity and all that is false...second of all this problem wont go away anytime soon...why u ask? because of relegion..each group has a relegious claim to the land that they refuse to give away...I just always wondered why israel was always intrested in arab lands..being Egyptian and knowing that israel tried to take my country and failed always makes me wonder..what they think we r weak or something hmm who knows? but i dont think this problam will go away..Lets face the facts israeli hate arabs and arabs hate israeli's and all the peace talk in the world will not change the mind of every israeli or every arab which will screw every treaty that will be made..

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 hehe lemme answer 1st question : 'cause they both been living there for centuries and they share the same "ethnicity"

eh somewhat. a clear and concise definition of ethnicity is required here. Muslims & Roman Catholics. As well as different people, the acual Bosnian Muslims (as to what i've been taught) originate from Turk-land as Croats originate from up north from Ukraine-land...no this goes back centuries - Croatia was a kingdom as far back as 900AD or some funky year like that.

quote:

2nd question : 'cause the jewish immigrants from europe and the rest of the world came 50 years ago and took arab people's land

hmm.....cant just go in and take something. those people were persucuted by the devil himself, had to go somewhere, though i truly doubt they just came to Israel and booted the Arabs off. then again, i have no clue as to what the hell i'm talking about in the previous sentence

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 'cause the jewish immigrants from europe and the rest of the world came 50 years ago and took arab people's land

one of the biggest myths/lies out there about this whole conflict, jews did not steal or take any land.

ok, palestine was under ottoman rule until after WW1 where control went to the UK along with the white papers (balfour declaration 1917) which "viewed in favor of the establishment in palestine of a home for the jewish people".

Jews went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in prodaminently arab areas. for the most part they sought out land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and most importantly without tennets. it was after the jews bought these lands that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many arabs were willing to sell because they were all migrating to the coastal towns that began to boom (acko, haifa, yaffa...) and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry (the basketball sized oranges dennis miller refered too).

the Simpson commission arrived in May 1930 and observed:

quote:

the jews paid high prices for the land, and in addition they payed to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay

in april 1936 a new outbreak of arab attacks on jews began led by Fawqi alQawukji, commander of the arab liberation army. in november the british sent a new commision headed by lord peel to investigate. the Peel's commission report found that Arab complaints about jewish land acquisition were baseless. it pointed out that:

quote:

"much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased. There was at the time of sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land"

it also concluded that:

quote:

"[The shortage of land was] due less to the amount of land acquired by jews than to the increase of arab population."

fact was that arab population in palestine increased 120 percent in 20 years between 1927 and 1947
the report also said that the presence of jews in palestine along with the work of the british mandate had resulted in higher wage, an improved standard of living and ample employment opprotunities.

Transjordan's Kind Abdullah wrote in his memoirs

quote:

It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up the Simpson Commission and by another drawn up by the Peel Commission, that the arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping

Even at the height of the arab revolt in 1938 the british high commissioner to palestine belived the arab landownders were complaining about sales to jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many arab landowners had been so terrorized by arab rebels that they decided to leave palestine and sell their property to the jews.

analysis of land purchases between 1880 to 1948 show that 73% of jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin. those who sold land included mayors of gaza, jerusalem and jaffa, members of the muslim supreme council, leaders of the arab nationalist movement. even king abdullah sold land along with As'ad el-Shuqeiri, a muslim religious scholar and father of the PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri. in all by 1947 jewish holdings in palestine amounted to 463,000 acres. 387,500 were purchased from arabs (84%), 30,000 bought from various churches (6%) and 45,000 were aquired from the mandatory government (10%).

yes...which makes about 4% of all of Palestine... just to put numbers in perspective. Also, when you buy lands, its still part of the country from where you bought it.

What in fact you say, is that Jews were buying land with a hidden agenda of declaring those lands independant, creating a country or whatever else you want to call it.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek yes...which makes about 4% of all of Palestine... just to put numbers in perspective.

huh? i dont get it

quote:

Also, when you buy lands, its still part of the country from where you bought it. What in fact you say, is that Jews were buying land with a hidden agenda of declaring those lands independant, creating a country or whatever else you want to call it.

at least you'll admit nothing was taken or stolen, thats all im saying.
when you think about it our agenda wasnt all the secret either. i mean there was the balfour declariation (set to make a jewish homeland) and the zionist movement's purpose was to set a homeland for the jewish people... so maybe it wasnt such a hidden agenda after all.

what they bought in about 50 years or so amounts to about 9.02% of Israel and about 4-5-6% of the whole of Palestine...

this is a looooong way of saying that jewish were in Palestine and had lands there.... its only a tiny part, and bought.

and yes it was a hidden agenda at that time, now everything is clear, but in the 1890's only the council of zion knew about this plan...


imagine, some chinese people buy lands in california and after a while try to create an independant state?!?! they buy the surface, yes, but underneath and over the surface is the govt proprety and the govt can collect taxes on that superficy... its still a long way from saying, i bought it, well its my country.

Ok here comes my long and overdue reply to this whole thread and some issues that have arisen in it.

firstly: rupert in regards to your reply, well lets just say I would have liked to insult you, but with your intelligence you wouldn't get offended. If I were you I'd considered suing my brains for non-support.

Great, now that we got that one out of the way lets get to the real issues.

One of the earlier points and main issue was a counter argument on my claim that Israelis are a peoples, moreover they are more of a peoples then the Palestinians. I hope I have disproved that infact the Palestinians are a peoples, the only culture they share is of weeping and crying for losing their land in wars they started, and in my view that doesn't make you a peoples. The example of the Neo-Rhoedians comes to mind. Now we'll skip over that, and I explained in my previous points that I understand a Palestinian peoples exist, I just believe that it is very funny how they gained such legitmacy in many minds. Oh and before I drop this and move on, I will say the Palestiniand 'officially' became a peoples in 1965 with the PLO charter.. this was the first call to independence (on condition of destruction of israel) for a 'peoples' which the charter then goes try to define (poorly) as palestinians, as I quoted from in my first post. There was no independent Palestinian movement before that date, previously it was just Arabs against Israel.

Now Israelis, yes those that started are right in a sense, Israelis aren't a peoples in ethnicity or religion due to the fact that they have Arabs and Christians and Muslims living together in this society. But one most see the point I was making, by Israelis I meant the Jewish people of Israel - after all this is the reaons Israel was founded. Israel was not founded by Christians or Arabs in this area, it was Jews and the Zionist movement. Firstly we must understand that their have been Jews always living in the land currently called Israel, since they arrived back in the good'ol BC days. Second, Israel is still laregly composed of a Jewish majority and hegemony. Jews have shared the same religion (obviously), culture, language, and in essence their civilization wherever they were across the world. This is usually a reason why they have been so heavily persecuted in history, since they were obviously their own group, unique, different, but united. Now telling me that Jews aren't a peoples would be an extremly hard thing to argue, and if anyone would like to try and prove their stupidity to me, you can go on and make a point from this, it will help you greatly.

Ok good.... now we got Jews being a people.. still with me on this one? Ok, now these jews them being all united and persecuted across the world said "damn them bitches" and went to Israel where they came with the INTENT (not hidden.. they're were talks with the Ottomans for a long time for establishing a Jewish homeland in Israel, and it wasn't successful so they settled their anyway, but this is why both the British and Ottomans, or at least one of the excuses they use, restricted severly jewish migration to palestine) to establish a homeland where they can defend themselves, instead of relly on a government from another country, which would just usually persecute and beat them up instead of defending them.

Good.. so your still with me, now the Jews are in Palestine with the intent of making a homeland, they make the homeland give it a name, and they call it Eretz Israel - from here I derive the term Israeli, as in a person from Israel, and using an obvious generalization I assert that an Israeli is a guy in the Jewish homeland, and therefore of a close knit religious-cultural bond uniting them as a peoples.

Obviously, the Jews where not child blood sucking verments as some people would like you to believe, and they did not massacre all Arabs in the land when they got their, in fact they did quiet the opposite and welcomed them to be apart of the nation they would create so long as they live peacefully together. Some Arabs accepted this (the ones currently in Israel, and from here the different sects of religion in the state) and some didn't they made war, most fled, others where expelled DURING THE WAR (no Arabs were kicked out during times of 'peace'.. or under the british, in fact the British only found 100 or so misplaced person on their commision to examine the aqusation and compensated them for the land lord who sold the jews the land, and sold their arab brethern short).

Now, also, just because not all Jews live in Israel, does not make them eligable for 'peoples' status. After all, the Jewish people are united across the world by their ability in times of crises to migrate to Israel where they are welcomed to.

So Arabs, Christians, and Muslim Israelis are indeed Israeli, but Israel is none the less a Jewish homeland created for the intent of protecting the Jews people. The other ethnicities in the area, and other religious groups are granted the privilage of participating in the nation, as it honors its commitment to freedom and democracy.

So their we go.
And lastly, to defend my points against Ahlamalek, I state again that first it was an OPEN intent for Jews to establish a homeland in Israel, if you like I can dig up the documents of those dates and show it to you. Second, obviously the Jews did not buy up all of Israel, but buying up 10% of a country is a very good deal considering most of the territory belongs to the state (the british) and was not for sale, and then arabs who lived there as well. What you see here is that Jews bought land when it wasn't their state when moving to Israel. I don't recall any jews coming during the time of the Ottomans or the British with guns, and telling the 'rock throwing' arabs to get of their land so they can build a settlement there.

Also while I'm On Ahlamalek, can you please try and get yourself a sense of humor... come on can you find the Arab Nation on the map? I know where the Jewish nation is, their is only one - it's called Israel. Damn, it was funny, I guess He who laughs last thinks slowest.

dude there's so many wrongs in you argumentation that it doesn't even hold together logically.

anyways, have a nice day.

Yoepus with all my respect , your last post is full of manure ...

-back in 1945 what does a spharadi from morocco have in common with an ashkenazi from bulgaria except the religion and hebrew ? NOTHING. don't even get me started on ethiopian jews.

-what israeli civilization are you talking about ? what israeli culture are you talking about ? spharadis from north africa have never been rejected nor prosecuted in fact they were AND THEY'RE STILL very intergrated to the local muslim society , economics and even politics (something an ashkenazi would never have dreamed of back in the days).

you are the ones calling us of "jewish haters" , we're not.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek dude there's so many wrongs in you argumentation that it doesn't even hold together logically. anyways, have a nice day.

Sounds very convincing.


Come on, I guess you're aware of the fact that argumentation consists of a thesis ("there's so many wrongs in you argumentation") and facts to back it up (zero). No need to discuss in the first place if u merely drop some unbacked phrases

first, ahlamalek, thank you, I did have a good day.

Now fastmp3, you make a few points and I hope I sum them up in the following:

i. ethinically different jews have nothing in common but relgion and hebrew.
ii. ethopians, since they are black should not get you started
iii. spharadis from north africa have NEVER been persecuted and are even today excepted in modern society
iv. i am calling you a jew hater, but you don't call yourself one

Now that we got your points summarized, let me counter each one with logical arguments ok?

great, lets start
i. Jews share the same culture as I mentioned before, this is usually associated with the religion such as funny habits of what you can eat when and what you can eat with what, and what you absolutely can not eat no matter what. Also they share the same culture of slaughtering animals, of not cooking on the Shabat (Saturday), of having the same types of food, usually preserved in these different ethnicities due to their relgious significance, such as matazh (no yeast bread) for passover.

Now I hope you understand as well that the differing ethnicities of jews primarly derivated from them not being good jews (and marrying a jew) and marrying with the locals. The majority (not all) of Jew though, can still be traced to the guys living back there till the Romans kicked them out, as unlike many other relgions Jews don't actively try to convert non-jews, and are quiet exclusionary. Now what this matters, I don't know.. but we were going from the point that they are a peoples, today at least if not then. Of course everything is relative, and contrast these to Palestinians, the majority of who are Arabs of differenting orgins, one or two generations in the land of Israel before the Jews came.

Thirdly, Jews seem to share that same privilage granted to any minority in a region, that of being persecuted, and they all share this, I will get more indepth to this point in area iii.

ii. yes, ethopian jews should not get started.. right.... umm but why again?

iii. I love this point, as I will illustrate to you that infact Spharadi jews (Jews who lived in Arab lands, as opposed to Ashkenaz, jews who lived in European lands) have been persecuted. I will admitidly state that jews communities in Islamic countries fared better overall then those in Christian lands in Europe, but Jews were not strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs, and saying they were NEVER persecuted against is a farce.

Lets get right back to the good'ol enlightenment era where Islam was at its prime.. to a place called Fez, you should be very fimiliar with the area fastmp3. Well in 1465 in this place, a "Jewish deputy vizier treated a muslim women in an 'offensive manner'". So of course no less then the rise of an Arab mob to slaughter thousands of jews, leaving only 11 in the community alive, was in order, I'm sure. As indeed this is what happened. Not only this, but it was such a cool a great wave of Arabs where inspired by this slaughter, where other similiar massacres were then commited across Moroco.*1

"Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algeirs, where jews were massacred in 1805, 1815, and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more then 300 Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880."*2

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Morocco in 1275, 1465, and 1790-92, as well as in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen at varrying dates.*3

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which containted the largest Jewsih community in the Islamic diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shows of staw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire. *4

Fast forward to today, April 2002 an attack on a Tunisian synagogue on the island of Djerba that killed 21 people by Al Qadea using a propane truck. *5

Now attacks in Morocco against Jews also happened in 1948, and presecution and harrasement resumed in 1956. Now saying this Morocco is perhaps one of the best countries in modernity with their treatment for the Jews, and is one of Israel's closest friends in the Arab world. In 1999, King Hassan organized the first meeting of the World Union of Moroccan Jews, in Marrakech. In April and May 2000, the Moroccan government sponsored a series of events and lectures promoting respect among Israeli religions.

So as you can see, I don't think it is actually a never. As I said before, Jews seem to share persecution where ever they are, as do many minorities across the world, this in a way does unite them, and has encouraged many to return to Israel where they are no longer the minority but the majority.

iv. No I am not calling you a Jew hater, and I don't think you are. But realize that the Jews have been indeed through a lot, and have united together as a peoples in Israel in modernity.
Ok, yes, yes I am calling you a jew hater


*sources:
1 Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab lands 1979 Princeton p.158
2 Maurice Roumani, The Case of the Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue 1977 Tel-Aviv p.26-27
3 Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi 1985 Fairleigh NJ p.61
4 Stillman p.84, Roumani, p.26-27
5 The New York Times November 15, 2002, Friday, Late Edition - Final
Section A; Page 19; Column 1; Foreign Desk

quote:

imagine, some chinese people buy lands in california and after a while try to create an independant state?!?! they buy the surface, yes, but underneath and over the surface is the govt proprety and the govt can collect taxes on that superficy... its still a long way from saying, i bought it, well its my country.

You missunderstood the whole point pal!
First of all this exmpale was brought to you to explain why the land wasn't stolen from the arabs like fastmp3 says. it was bought.

The secnod thing, your example of buying lands in california is not good, cause california belongs to USA, (which means The US goverment rules does lands, the chinees in your exmaple will only have lageslation to build houeses or factories, the legal authoruty will be always USA's)

The Land belonged to The Turkish empire, than to the british, there was no arabic country there, so here goes you example .
And the israelis didnt say "Wooot! we bougth the land now its our country"! no! they just bought lands for people to settle in legally.

Than The UN, decided to create two countries, Israel and Palestine, Which ofcourse lead to a massive arab attack on israel from inside and outside arabic countries! So there is how Israel became a country, by Legal means, and by brave self-defending.

this argument is my favourite :)

HEY EVERYONE!!!

I have posted in a while, because i've beenbusy. I just noticed this political section, and I said 'I know there is ajewish/israel post here somewhere'!! I found it, and thankfully with a 'sigh' all the ignorant slander always spoken recently about jews/israel (the two are interconnected like a torso and legs) usually doesn't have the proper representation on the behalf of the poor jews.

I am part of a small group of young jews that look around our society and see such un-biased hatred raising up towards jews in various side-forms, like "anti-zionist" and "anti-israeli oppression" these are just illusions to the real idea of hatred for Jews.

I feel so good to see that in a beautiful place like this where everyone connects on the level of TRANCE (I'm a good jew, and I still love trance, and I'm now living in Israel, orignally from Toronto Canada (came here 3 months ago!) and I can still relate to all of you if from only 1 thing, FROM TRANCE!!! Personally I see a beyond physical bond with that alone, even if its not a 'deep' one) we can still have objective arguments. It's obvious that everyone has their own scedule, and everyone has their own education methods, and in any open-forum we can talk about what mmatters and dispel all the subjective things and really get to the truth. I thank everyone that helped make that happen here!!!


Finally, I don't plan on combatting people who bash jews anywhere really directly. It is in vein to do thsi, because as you can easily see, anyone that takes action against israel today, stating they are murderers etc, is wrong, if we even just look into this small tranceaddict.com forum! It's USELESS To try to stop those that spill out venomous slander that is baseless,and is just hatred.

Don't beleive me, just look for yourselves, who will slander and how they will never stop no matter what is said against their often baseless arguments. It is a heart-originated subject they speak about, not an intellectual one. It is because they think with their heart, and their emotions, and not with their thought process device, their brain. These ARE ALWAYS The one toslander against israel and to always consistently bash Israel wherever the chance. They simply put, feel the hate for them, and will NEVER concede, because they are not being OBJECTIVE!!!!!!!


Think about it for a while, you'll all realize if you haven't already that im 100% right!


PEACE EVERYONE!!!!\

G-D BLESS TRANCE!!!

DJ BARON!

Aside from every historical and technical meticulation that has being regurgitated here... we should look at what a few individuals in power, the media, and arrogance (on the part of the Isreali government and military) has done to the the mentality of both Isrealis and Palestinians. It is an ongoing cycle of growing hatred fueled by murder. Although i do beleive that suicide bombers are DRIVEN into madness and not born into it, i still think its dredfully wrong what they do. I also think the United states should review how their supplied military technology to Isreal is causing much death in that nation. It is one thing to defend yourself.... but there is a distinction between Defending and attacking. Dont get me wrong.. im not anti-semetic .. i have many jewish freinds.... but i look at Isreal in pity...what could be such a beautiful country has been torn apart by hatred on both sides.. a segregation i think will still draw blood. What the Isreali military is doing to the palestinians is no worse than what Russia is doing to Chenchnya,, or Yugolslavia to the Albanians...

In a way.. i wish that whole region in Isreal could be designated as a "holy land" un-owned by any nation where christians, muslims and Jews can live together without fighting over who owns what...But that is me and my wishful thinking

Just a few comments:
the fact that both sides use violence still doesn't mean that the often cited CYCLE of violence exists. A cycle would imply that both sides commit violent acts at the same extent of quality and quantity for the sake of continuation the war. That is not the case. The reality is not a "harmonious" cycle but a ping pong game started by the Palestinians. Action-Reaction, No action- No reaction (see last few weeks: no suicide bombings no military operation). To prove that its the Palestinians (terrorists, not the entire people of course) who keep "acting" one must realize that the aformentioned logical equations do not work the other way around: In summer 2001, after the most silent period in months, where Israel singlehandely declared a cease fire Palestinian terror exploded (check statistics). In fact there IS also a logical system behind that. The more weakness Terrorism (globally) senses the more it increases its power (and "courage").

quote:

Although i do beleive that suicide bombers are DRIVEN into madness and not born into it

I certainly agree with you, of course if you mean that they're driven by their own "brothers". Noone says that ANY criminal in the world is born bad (although im currently reading an interesting book dealing with the questions of genetic explanations for crime) but hardly anyone will remain immune when daily confronted with brainwashing propaganda. However, this kind of propaganda will affect someone who experiences bad things (and admitteldy, not every israeli soldier is an angel !) in a much more powerful way. Totally destroying the terror infrastructure and the hatred spreading media is the Palestnian govenment's business. Looking for a way out of the territories is order to minimize the terrorism potential should be the Israelis' goal..and duty.

Oh and dont feel like having to point out explicitely that you ain't anti-semitic. Most people aren't (I hope?)...but are rather more simply un-informed and biased but still want to share their so smart words with the rest of the world That's why I would never comment on an Issue like Chechnya Yugoslavia or Turkey vs. Kurds.

P.S.:

quote:

wish that whole region in Isreal could be designated as a "holy land" un-owned by any nation where christians, muslims and Jews can live together without fighting over who owns what

In this case Im afraid to hope that this wishe doesn't come true. Jews need their own independent country..History gave em plenty of lessons

quote:

firstly: rupert in regards to your reply, well lets just say I would have liked to insult you, but with your intelligence you wouldn't get offended. If I were you I'd considered suing my brains for non-support.

I thought this thread was dead, if I had know I had been ridiculed on a personal level I would have responded immediately.

I thought long and hard about what to say in response to this. What would be the harshest thing that I could say.

"My heart is cold to you and your country. You display the same arrogance and hubris of the Israeli and american politicians who appear on Fox News."

what goes around comes around. You and your people have'nt gotten away with the cleansings of Lydda and Ramle, the massacre of the arabs in Deir Yassin, the massacres of Sabra and Chatila and every other murder, beating, persecution, dispossession that didnt make the history books or doesnt get on the evening news. The arabs have not forgotten what you have done.

The war with the arabs is one that Israel and the west cannot win

good, go and immigrate and leave us bloody westeners

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Aside from every historical and technical meticulation that has being regurgitated here...

one should never undermine the facts and history of the land. there is no use living in a world of false illusions. without unbiased, objective looks at the history and facts of the conflict one can never arrive at a fair solution.

quote:

It is an ongoing cycle of growing hatred fueled by murder.

as trance-gaint side, there is no real cycle. i can say that the overwhelming majority of israels want to live peacefully with a palestinian country. however, i can say that the vast majority of israelis are not willing to live next to neighbours who have close to a dozen terrorist orginizations basicly controling the normal lives of the local populace.

quote:

I also think the United states should review how their supplied military technology to Isreal is causing much death in that nation.

thats not a logical statement at all. imagine how much death there would be if israel did not poccess laser guided missles that are fired from hig-tech apache helicopters? how about the complex targeting mechanisms that are used in tanks. and lets not forget about the UAV israel uses to gather intellegence in hotile areas instead of sending in real soldiers. if israel did not possess such technology the cases of mis-firings, friendly fire, and civilian casualties would increase, and i can say that with 100% certanty. dont blame the US or israel for wanting to be accurate, consice and to that effect, victorious.

quote:

It is one thing to defend yourself.... but there is a distinction between Defending and attacking.

israel is defending itself, its civilian citizens from acts of horrendious inhumanity. the palestinians, while the active, armed palestinians seem to be defending themselves from the jewish entity that pollutes the grounds of the middle east (please, read the hamas charter). which seems more like a defense and which seems more like an offense?

HERE IS HOW DENNIS MILLERS WHOLE SHPEAL WENT....



Dennis Miller on Israel
"For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian who has a show
called Dennis Miller Live on HBO. He recently went on a rant about the
situation: "A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:
The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about
that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was
called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."
So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any
more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our
deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want
their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and,worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.
They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where the
real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying
to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call
it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab
countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something.
It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic
the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm
missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since
Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.
Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five
million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a
pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks
swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone
will be pals.
Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to
obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths
to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.
My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just
reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs.
I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the
Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea?
Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.
Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their
bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to
themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people
is debate them to death.
Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that
with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our
interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as
possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a
roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away.
However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of
losing moral weight.
We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and
the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries
that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.
If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we
would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id . . . ooh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)"

ALL IN FAVOUR SAY 'I'!!!!!




TO ALL YOU HATERS.... I SUGGEST YOU ALL BECOME 'MARTYRES' AND GO BLOW YOUR FAMILIES OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!!!

FUCK BEING LOGICAL AND NICE ABOUT EVERYTHING, US JEWS WE HAVE A PROBLEM OF BEING NICE AND UNDERSTANDING JUST BECAUSE OF WHAT WE WENT THROUGH IN THE PAST....

YOU HATE - I HATE!

quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike HERE IS HOW DENNIS MILLERS WHOLE SHPEAL WENT.... Dennis Miller on Israel "For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian who has a show called Dennis Miller Live on HBO. He recently went on a rant about the situation: "A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go: The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and,worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one. Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding. My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death. Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id . . . ooh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)" ALL IN FAVOUR SAY 'I'!!!!! TO ALL YOU HATERS.... I SUGGEST YOU ALL BECOME 'MARTYRES' AND GO BLOW YOUR FAMILIES OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!!! FUCK BEING LOGICAL AND NICE ABOUT EVERYTHING, US JEWS WE HAVE A PROBLEM OF BEING NICE AND UNDERSTANDING JUST BECAUSE OF WHAT WE WENT THROUGH IN THE PAST.... YOU HATE - I HATE!

Dennis Miller = Hitler , he can still try to blow the whole arab world if he wants

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy one should never undermine the facts and history of the land. there is no use living in a world of false illusions. without unbiased, objective looks at the history and facts of the conflict one can never arrive at a fair solution.

Its these historical and stupid religious beliefs that has caused this war in the first place. I hate religion...its the cause of much blood shed in this world.

quote:

as trance-gaint side, there is no real cycle. i can say that the overwhelming majority of israels want to live peacefully with a palestinian country. however, i can say that the vast majority of israelis are not willing to live next to neighbours who have close to a dozen terrorist orginizations basicly controling the normal lives of the local populace.

And palestinians on the other hand dont want to have neighbors with apache helicopters firing down on their civilians becuase of suicide bombers who choose to carry out their unfortunate beliefs. They dont want a neighbor who is on a heavy power trip

quote:

thats not a logical statement at all. imagine how much death there would be if israel did not poccess laser guided missles that are fired from hig-tech apache helicopters? how about the complex targeting mechanisms that are used in tanks. and lets not forget about the UAV israel uses to gather intellegence in hotile areas instead of sending in real soldiers. if israel did not possess such technology the cases of mis-firings, friendly fire, and civilian casualties would increase, and i can say that with 100% certanty. dont blame the US or israel for wanting to be accurate, consice and to that effect, victorious.

How is that not logical? Read what you wrote. These military technologies were created for one purpose....TO KILL. And yes.. "mis-firings" do occur, like that of boys who throw rocks at tanks . You do know of those young soldiers who dont know better than to shoot if they are told right? Those young Isreali's who are given the authority to wield guns and shoot when they feel threatned. Well... who is to tell themwhen to feel threatened,, hey.. "why not shoot any palestinian who looks like a terrorist"

quote:

israel is defending itself, its civilian citizens from acts of horrendious inhumanity. the palestinians, while the active, armed palestinians seem to be defending themselves from the jewish entity that pollutes the grounds of the middle east (please, read the hamas charter). which seems more like a defense and which seems more like an offense?

There is more death on the palestinian side as a result of this defending. Tanks and soldiers will occupy land and reak havoc on the already poor palestinian families that are suffering from lack of food, running water and ridiculous curfews. I will never forget what took place in Jenin. Remember... if you are out later than your curfew... you will be shot... i dont think this is a 'mis-firing' and it has happened numerous times.

I am Jewish, but I have to agree with fastmp3 that in the early stages of Israel's formation (and even now), there is a clash of cultures and some Jews don't have much in common with others.

I remember taking a history class in college where we watched a video how Israel's first schools and teaching camps were being created, and how there were a lot of cultural issues and troubles that had to be sorted out (particularly b/w Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Ethiopian, etc. other Jews)

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