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Re: My disgust towards the American Immigration

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Today, my sister and my brother were supposed to go to Los Angeles from Toronto until the immigration officer noticed her place of birth was Tehran, Iran. From here, they brought my sister into an interrogation room where she waited a good hour until questions began. Ultimately, she missed her flight over studpid questions that could have been answered at the desk as she was boarding the flight,,, but no,, the immigration services finds it right to racially profile, and discriminate people based on where they were born as a precaution for weeding out what they consider terrorists. At some points,, the immigration officers couldnt even answer questions my sister gave them....they were completely dumbfounded and knew what they were participating in was wrong and unethical. What if my sister had to go to a wedding, or an important business meeting? A jamaican woman who even worked at the airport told us that it was something all Jamaicans had to go through as well. This is truly very inconsiderate on behalf of the American government....and in a way.... it disgusts me on an extreme level. There is so much anger in me right now that it is hard to phrase in words... and this is all due to the ignorance and prejudice that may people have to face. I would would thiink that racial discrimination executed on a federal level would have been a thing of the past, but sadly, we live in the year 2002 and this still occurs. What are your opinions on this? I would espescially like to see responses from the Americans on this board to the unjust racial profiling that has been issued in Airports this passed year on Koreans, Arabs, Iranians, south Asians and even some Europeans.

just say thanks that you weren't thrown in camps like the Japanese were in WWII... But, as a nation dedicated to survival first & foremost, you cant be too careful, & Tehran Iran has been a known exporter of terrorism in the past...

Re: Re: My disgust towards the American Immigration

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Originally posted by Verona^My just say thanks that you weren't thrown in camps like the Japanese were in WWII... But, as a nation dedicated to survival first & foremost, you cant be too careful, & Tehran Iran has been a known exporter of terrorism in the past...

No im not going to say "thanks" becuase that isnt something that would happen in this day. Also.. tell me exactly what Iranians have done in the past... how are they the exporters of terrorism. Yes every country has terrorists... but the American media has a tendancy to utilize fear in its news broadcasting in order for their political agenda to take place. And with that said... there is no better place than the middle east to make them the enemy.. except Israel. First it was the Japanese/Germans...then Cuba and Russia... then Vietnam...China....now its the mid East. For fucks sake.. cant you see the trend....everyone is an "enemy" to yoour country

There are two valid points raised here:

1) Post Sept 11, airline security must be increased to prevent a similar event from happenning in the future.
2) We must ensure that an entire population of people are not targetted as a result of the actions of a very small few.

Reconciling these two points are undeniably difficult, as it really asks for a compromise between security and civil liberties. The question then must be which - if either - of the two goals are more important? Is it worth sacrificing civil liberties to improve national security? Is it worth preserving civil liberties at the expense of national security? Is the issue so evenly split into this dichotemic either/or situation?

Fundamentally, a nation has the right to thoroughly check those who enter its borders (so long as it is done in accordance with the UN human rights charter - not that the US pays much attention to what the UN thinks mind) and refuse entry to those individuals who they may deem "a risk". I see nothing wrong with this. In the times we live in, it would be wrong to consider national borders mere turnstiles that allow through anyone with a passport. I certainly wouldn't allow anyone into my country that I consider to be in any way a risk to its overall security. A nation has the right to thoroughly check anyone that enters its borders.

Does that mean that they have the right to detain an Iranian woman for no other reason than because she's Iranian? Theoretically, yes they do have the right (i.e. one of the premises of entering a country is that you abide by their national laws) but, at the same time, merely because some entity has the "right" to commit a certain action, it does not make this action in-and-of-itself "right" (for instance, I have the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, but it does not make this mode of action "right" in the moral sense). The US had every right to detain your sister Cyrus, but it does not mean they should have done so.

If the US Imigration Dept wishes to discriminate on the basis of race (and nothing else from the information you've given me) then, while they have the theoretical right to do so (a country is free to determine it's own immigration/temporary visa laws) I would argue, from a moral imperitive, that it is wrong to preclude the civil liberties of an entire race of people, for no other reason than their birth place. If there were a bomb shaped implement in your sisters bag then I may be able to understand, otherwise this incident is merely representative of the irrational, anti-terrorist paranoia sweeping the US at the moment.

If the US are so willing to disregard civil-liberties - the overriding premise of our human civilization - in favour of ridiculously strict security (for all - citizens of the US or not) then I agree with Stunt: even if no more bombs are exploded on US soil, the terroirsts are already winning.

Having said that, given the xenophobic tendencies of my PM, I wouldn't be suprised if Australia has similar legislation in place by the time parliament resumes next year.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade There are two valid points raised here: 1) Post Sept 11, airline security must be increased to prevent a similar event from happenning in the future. 2) We must ensure that an entire population of people are not targetted as a result of the actions of a very small few. Reconciling these two points are undeniably difficult, as it really asks for a compromise between security and civil liberties. The question then must be which - if either - of the two goals are more important? Is it worth sacrificing civil liberties to improve national security? Is it worth preserving civil liberties at the expense of national security? Is the issue so evenly split into this dichotemic either/or situation? Fundamentally, a nation has the right to thoroughly check those who enter its borders (so long as it is done in accordance with the UN human rights charter - not that the US pays much attention to what the UN thinks mind) and refuse entry to those individuals who they may deem "a risk". I see nothing wrong with this. In the times we live in, it would be wrong to consider national borders mere turnstiles that allow through anyone with a passport. I certainly wouldn't allow anyone into my country that I consider to be in any way a risk to its overall security. A nation has the right to thoroughly check anyone that enters its borders. Does that mean that they have the right to detain an Iranian woman for no other reason than because she's Iranian? Theoretically, yes they do have the right (i.e. one of the premises of entering a country is that you abide by their national laws) but, at the same time, merely because some entity has the "right" to commit a certain action, it does not make this action in-and-of-itself "right" (for instance, I have the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, but it does not make this mode of action "right" in the moral sense). The US had every right to detain your sister Cyrus, but it does not mean they should have done so. If the US Imigration Dept wishes to discriminate on the basis of race (and nothing else from the information you've given me) then, while they have the theoretical right to do so (a country is free to determine it's own immigration/temporary visa laws) I would argue, from a moral imperitive, that it is wrong to preclude the civil liberties of an entire race of people, for no other reason than their birth place. If there were a bomb shaped implement in your sisters bag then I may be able to understand, otherwise this incident is merely representative of the irrational, anti-terrorist paranoia sweeping the US at the moment. If the US are so willing to disregard civil-liberties - the overriding premise of our human civilization - in favour of ridiculously strict security (for all - citizens of the US or not) then I agree with Stunt: even if no more bombs are exploded on US soil, the terroirsts are already winning. Having said that, given the xenophobic tendencies of my PM, I wouldn't be suprised if Australia has similar legislation in place by the time parliament resumes next year.

Very well said Renegade.

I concur.

But would it be so difficult to merely install X-ray-scanners in addition to those metal detectors? Surely, you're invading people's privacy with that (people could be concealing an unwanted pregnancy) but it would be easier and fairer then just selecting people at random or based on race or origin.

And if the technology isn't their to apply it in a cost-effective on such a large scale, then apply for government funding (which shouldn't be that difficult). It would be a visible enhancement to airport security, sending a positive message to the general public that they are improving security without suspending civil rights.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade it does not make this action in-and-of-itself "right" (for instance, I have the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, but it does not make this mode of action "right" in the moral sense).

In the USA, you do not have this right unless there is indeed a fire in the theatre. Otherwise if you do so, it is a crime.

quote:

If the US Imigration Dept wishes to discriminate on the basis of race (and nothing else from the information you've given me) then, while

In this certain case they are not 'racially' profiling, but are doing so nationally.

Considering that Iran is one of the three 'axis of evil' nations, the nations the USA government considers enemies of gravest threats to it's security. Then it is understandable if they would want to question every citizen of those nations entering their borders, or at least a large precentage of those nationals.

Cyrus wrote what terrorist-exproting has Iran done. And I could list a lot, but I won't do this now and simply says the USA as a government can say which countries it sees as enemies and which as friends. That is part of it's soverignthy. It might not always do this RIGHT like Renegade said, but it can do this as it choses, and it has chosen Iran as an enemy.

Re: Re: Re: My disgust towards the American Immigration

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King No im not going to say "thanks" becuase that isnt something that would happen in this day. Also.. tell me exactly what Iranians have done in the past... how are they the exporters of terrorism. Yes every country has terrorists... but the American media has a tendancy to utilize fear in its news broadcasting in order for their political agenda to take place. And with that said... there is no better place than the middle east to make them the enemy.. except Israel. First it was the Japanese/Germans...then Cuba and Russia... then Vietnam...China....now its the mid East. For fucks sake.. cant you see the trend....everyone is an "enemy" to yoour country

i think that you should perhaps research terrorism a little more before you go and acuse the US government of "picking" on the middle east. if you knew anything about the evolution of modern terrorism you might see the point of view i'm talking about..."exporters of terrorism". i'm not saying that racial profiling is justifiable under any circumstances, but the governments that we live in are forced to make tough desicions in order to protect our way of life. of course the middle east isn't the only terrorist producing nation, but i will say that under the circumstances and the repeated attacks by middle easterners not just on the US but around the world causes them to be put under a little closer watch. i think that the war against the germans and their allies the japanese is obviously legitimate yes? the genocide of people cannot be tolerated. Cuba and russia not only because of the communist way of life but the threat to NATIONAL SECURITY. now vietnam...i don't know how justified that is simply because it was an economic conflict. china similar to the russian problem...national security. and now the middle east as well.

quote:

just say thanks that you weren't thrown in camps like the Japanese were in WWII... But, as a nation dedicated to survival first & foremost, you cant be too careful, & Tehran Iran has been a known exporter of terrorism in the past...

i don't understand why the US is looked upon so badly for the internment of japanese civilians during the war...i'm not saying that it was ok, but it should at least be acknowledge that other nations in the world at the same time...for one japan that had similar if not worse marks on their cultures...ask some chinese TA's about the japaneses part in their country during WW2...i don't think japan has officially apologized?

no one is dissing anyone's ancestry background at checkpoints. The last time I checked, the terrorist attacks kill anyone in that area no matter what race, creed, or background.

why should I be humiliated because I am treated like a criminal every time i go to the states? all this because a handful of men commited an idiocy, millions of arabs, black, indians, pakistani, anyone not white should suffer this tiresome questionning, arogant attitude, etc. well one thing for sure, i'm not gonna set foot there anymore ever till this hysterical craziness of regulation is gone...

burning down a house because of a few cockaroaches is not a solution.

just read thru some of the stories, and points made so far and i hav to say im kinda sickened that this kind of thing still happens in this day and age. Why just because ur of a certain race make u more likely to be a terrorist? Bah! fuck America, and fuck george bush.

Re: Re: My disgust towards the American Immigration

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Originally posted by Busy Child Its life, get over it.

and u i must say, are one of the most arrogant persons i hav ever come across not that u'd care tho

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike just read thru some of the stories, and points made so far and i hav to say im kinda sickened that this kind of thing still happens in this day and age. Why just because ur of a certain race make u more likely to be a terrorist? Bah! fuck America, and fuck george bush.

Don't fuck em, that the worst solution you could come up with. Try petitions, try to get your opinion out, get mediacoverage, send letters, play the system, but don't fuck the sysytem, otherwise the system is going to fuck you and fuck you big time. Anarchy doesn't work, it's not sustainable. So try and better the system, try and better the attitudes of people, try to educate them.

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Originally posted by Stunt So try and better the system, try and better the attitudes of people, try to educate them.

unfortunately the americans are literally "hammered" with propaganda in skools, and are basically indoctrinated with american bullshit, and as a result fail to see that their precious country, just like everyone else, can also be wrong. Sometimes going the rite way about summing wont always work.. I hav Quite a lot of hatred towards the American government and a lot of it policies, but this kind of racism just sickens me

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike unfortunately the americans are literally "hammered" with propaganda in skools, and are basically indoctrinated with american bullshit, and as a result fail to see that their precious country, just like everyone else, can also be wrong. Sometimes going the rite way about summing wont always work.. I hav Quite a lot of hatred towards the American government and a lot of it policies, but this kind of racism just sickens me

Yeah ok, but just ignoring the problem or telling it to fuck itself isn't going to solve it.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike unfortunately the americans are literally "hammered" with propaganda in skools, and are basically indoctrinated with american bullshit, and as a result fail to see that their precious country, just like everyone else, can also be wrong. Sometimes going the rite way about summing wont always work.. I hav Quite a lot of hatred towards the American government and a lot of it policies, but this kind of racism just sickens me

Quite honestly I don't think the majority of the American public cares for the policies of the American government either. But democracy doesn't solve the problem when you're always trying to choose between the lesser of two evils.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike unfortunately the americans are literally "hammered" with propaganda in skools, and are basically indoctrinated with american bullshit,

ya we're all tools of the US government

my god, you make it seem like Bush is a physcopatic dictator bent on controlling everything and that the population he governs has no room for self thought or opinions outside that of his own. im sorry but if you say that americans are hammered with propoganda in schools and indoctricanted with 'american' bullshit, it shows to me who really is the one who is brainwashed.

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Originally posted by ahlamalek burning down a house because of a few cockaroaches is not a solution.

yes it is a solution. a solution being an idea or concept that solves a problem. by burning the house down you get solve the problem of a few cockaroaches.
its definitly not the best solution or even a morally right solution but it is a solution.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike unfortunately the americans are literally "hammered" with propaganda in skools, and are basically indoctrinated with american bullshit, and as a result fail to see that their precious country, just like everyone else, can also be wrong. Sometimes going the rite way about summing wont always work.. I hav Quite a lot of hatred towards the American government and a lot of it policies, but this kind of racism just sickens me

exactly what I was thinking.

I seriously think the entire USA needs a good slap in the face.

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Originally posted by Arbiter But democracy doesn't solve the problem when you're always trying to choose between the lesser of two evils.

heh. i like that. nicely put..

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Originally posted by Izzy my god, you make it seem like Bush is a physcopatic dictator bent on controlling everything and that the population he governs has no room for self thought or opinions outside that of his own. im sorry but if you say that americans are hammered with propoganda in schools and indoctricanted with 'american' bullshit, it shows to me who really is the one who is brainwashed.

yea.. of course lav..

i would respond to that with a well thought out and constructive post. But truth be told im far to lazy. Leave that to the JohnSmiths and Arbiter's of the forum.. However i will steal a post from another thread which i found very insightful, which shud help explain why i think Bush is such a bellend. However, i dont think he is a physcopatic dicator, ur just putting words in my mouth And i no i'll probably get a lot of flames after posting the list, but u'll just all be proving my earlier point..

Oh and btw, i can assure u im not brainwashed I actually am quite highly educated and can honestly say my opinions are of my own

Cheers, Mike:


1) Rejection of the Kyoto agreement. Producing huge amounts of pollution, instance on manufacturing and driving cars that use double of the petrol of any other car of the same side made outside of the US.
2) State executions, including executions for crimes committed as a minor, and for the fact that the system is grossly racist.
3) Coming late into the second world war, when it had already been all but won and needlessly killing thousands if not millions of innocent German civilians.
4) Starting the Vietnam war because of their insane and misguided fear of communism, attacking civilians with napalm, etc.
5) Greedy Mr Bush wanting to capture Iraqi oil interests for his stupid family, his hidden financial wrongdoings, his hidden cocaine and alcohol additions.
6) Starting practically every war over the last 100 years, fighting to capture the oil, or against communism, basically attacking whatever is not beneficial for the country at the time.
7) The hugely biased & inward looking media. The lies they tell their people, and what their people believe, even though through the internet they can find out pretty much anything they like - just not believe it. Americans deny truthful things just because they haven�t seen it on �Fox News�.
8) American sanctions on Iraq

+ more

Thanks again,

Mike

Re: Re: Re: My disgust towards the American Immigration

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King No im not going to say "thanks" becuase that isnt something that would happen in this day. Also.. tell me exactly what Iranians have done in the past... how are they the exporters of terrorism. Yes every country has terrorists... but the American media has a tendancy to utilize fear in its news broadcasting in order for their political agenda to take place. And with that said... there is no better place than the middle east to make them the enemy.. except Israel. First it was the Japanese/Germans...then Cuba and Russia... then Vietnam...China....now its the mid East. For fucks sake.. cant you see the trend....everyone is an "enemy" to yoour country

you really need to consider the historical perspective of these enemies. germany and japan were both the aggressors in those situations. and there was no direct military action against cuba or russia, that's why it was a "cold" war, get it? vientam was stupid, i agree. but china is not really an enemy.. maybe a sore, but not a threat (the US has economic interests in china, i don't think they'd want to jeopardize that). and BTW, many many nations in the past century have had beef with a lot of others, so it's unfair to single america out. we just have the most force and make the most noise. And with the mid-east, well, they were again the source of agression in this case. all of the sept. 11 (and many other terror acts) terrorists originated from the region, so it's reasonable to assume that a person from one of the mideast nations (except Israel, of course) would be more likely to be the terrorist than a european, oriental, latino, etc. person.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike yea.. of course lav.. i would respond to that with a well thought out and constructive post. But truth be told im far to lazy. Leave that to the JohnSmiths and Arbiter's of the forum.. However i will steal a post from another thread which i found very insightful, which shud help explain why i think Bush is such a bellend. However, i dont think he is a physcopatic dicator, ur just putting words in my mouth Oh and btw, i can assure u im not brainwashed I actually am quite highly educated and can honestly say my opinions are of my own

hehe i know, sorry wasnt meaning to personally attack you, but rather the attitude thats prevalient out there in general. and i know all about being lazy, im prone to getting many attacks during the year, i cant really complain cause in ger enjoy being lazy furthermore better to see an opinion out there then none at all.
now as for the 8 points you brought up, i'd love arguing over every single one as well, we should probably open up a thread on each point when we both get over our winter induced lazyness.

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Originally posted by Izzy ya we're all tools of the US government my god, you make it seem like Bush is a physcopatic dictator bent on controlling everything and that the population he governs has no room for self thought or opinions outside that of his own.

Enter George Orwell...

Sounds a "bit" unrealistic.

you should wake up to the fact that this has been going on worldwide for years ........


my parents being american were profiled in France .... they're not even allowed a permanent visa, instead they're offered a Residents Card which could get them kicked out damn easy if it wasn't renewed ( living in the usa for one year ..... we can't let the french GVT know about it cause they'd cancel their right to have the Residents card )


In Isreal all Arabs get profiled

And many other places which I can't think of right now

Many countries deny you rights under the fact that you are from one land in particular

Speaking of USA couple years ago a friend from the UK went to the USA for the vacation of his "lifetime" .... he arrived in Chicago WORST AIRPORT FOR AN ENGLISH PERSON TO LAND IN .... detained and questionned for hours on end ...


Now in the USA it's different ... you could actually sue for discrimination ( I think ) if you were profiled .......

ok jdat, but there's only one country at the moent which thinks it can police the world. Care to guess which one?

quote:

Originally posted by Stunt ok jdat, but there's only one country at the moent which thinks it can police the world. Care to guess which one?

and exactly what has this got to with the thread? immigration conserns people coming into the states, so it has full rights to "police" this process.

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