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-- Who Are the Palestinians???
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quote:

Originally posted by oDrori Yeah I'm sorry I wasn't sure what the English word for it is... Uganda was a first choice, it was a Zionist choice, I believe Benjamin Theodor Ze'ev Hertzel chose it, it was never a religous choice. I will not try to back up HIS theory though, just as I would not ask an Arab person to back a terrorist's way.

ok cool, yea i knew it was someplace else i forgot to mention it was a zionist choice. i dont think we will ever know the reason for the terrorist action, at least the real reason.

edit: some people think they know the reason, but in all honestly, you cannot judge something that you dont know. i am not talking about judging the situation over there, i am talking about knowing what it is like to be a palestinian these days. all some people can think is they just want to kill innnocent people. some other people think it is revenge, but we dont really know

quote:

Originally posted by liquidxxd edit: some people think they know the reason, but in all honestly, you cannot judge something that you dont know. i am not talking about judging the situation over there, i am talking about knowing what it is like to be a palestinian these days. all some people can think is they just want to kill innnocent people. some other people think it is revenge, but we dont really know

I honestly think I have a clue ... Israeli residents all feel pretty much alike these days I guess.

Some of them think we should all die. Others think there's a way for co existance, it's just that the other side has to back down a bit to fit some demands. Other would want this fuck up over with and what the hell let them have it if that makes them feel good. Some aren't allowed to know the proportions of several aspects and thus become extreme.

Some are good people no matter what way they fight for, some are scumbags.

quote:

Originally posted by oDrori I honestly think I have a clue ... Israeli residents all feel pretty much alike these days I guess. Some of them think we should all die. Others think there's a way for co existance, it's just that the other side has to back down a bit to fit some demands. Other would want this fuck up over with and what the hell let them have it if that makes them feel good. Some aren't allowed to know the proportions of several aspects and thus become extreme. Some are good people no matter what way they fight for, some are scumbags.

do you live in israel?

"Are these unhappy people, the subjects of our King, in a state of rebellion or are they an injured people, whom we have invaded and with whom we are at war?

Are they within the reach of our laws; or are they to be judged by the law of nations? Are they to be viewed in the light of murderers, or as prisoners of war?

Are they British subjects at all, or a foreign enemy who has never yet been subdued and which resists our usurped authority and domination ... We are at war with them: they look upon us as enemies as invaders as oppressors and persecutors they resist our invasion. They have never been subdued, therefore they are not rebellious subjects, but an injured nation defending in their own way, their rightful possessions, which have been torn from them by force."

Letter written to a Launceston newspaper, 1831

Taken from

http://www.atsic.gov.au/news_room/A..._Fact/index.asp

The webpage of the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander Commission.

The aboriginal people also know what its like to be dispossessed, disenfranchised their very right to exist denied through cynical racist arguments,like "they dont have a country, they dont have any laws, they have no national identity"

Change the word aboriginal to palestinian. I think i made my point.

Nothing ever changes the world is always full of cowardly, cynical bullies who use their power to steal and murder and then try and conceal their crimes by either denying they ever happened or creating elaborate fictions so they can sleep at night.

I think some of the ppl here should learn more about Zionism before making such poor uneducated comments. If you think this was a spontaneous "ho! 2000 years are gone, lets go back to God's land" movement..think again.
Zionism has three motives: religion, history, pragmatical politics. The political circumstances outweighed though, they were the main trigger for the ideology.
By that I mean the fact that jewish people in Zaristic Russia(pogroms) but also in middle europe where their emancipation paradoxically caused strong antisemitc riots, became enemies, persecuted outcasts of society. That, accompanied by the Nationalism spirit that permeated Europe in the 19th century, was the hallmark for Zionism. For winning support a unifying argument was needed: the common hisory, the shared religion, language etc. etc.
So here you go, that's Zionism.

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Originally posted by liquidxxd do you live in israel?

Yes ... or maybe .

I guess the major most of the Israelis in this discussion are indeed living somwhere else right now.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Change the word aboriginal to palestinian. I think i made my point. Nothing ever changes the world is always full of cowardly, cynical bullies who use their power to steal and murder and then try and conceal their crimes by either denying they ever happened or creating elaborate fictions so they can sleep at night.

What exactly are we cowardly cinical bullies denying? What fictions have we made up?

You know what, while we're at that conotation, here's a lovely idea:
Why don't you change the word Aboriginal to Jewish?

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Change the word aboriginal to palestinian. I think i made my point.

Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike WHY CANT ANYONE TELL ME WHO THE PALISTINIANS ARE?? WHY CANT ANYONE ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS POSTED EARLIER. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME... IT SEEMS AS THOUGH I'M IGNORANT ABOUT THE SUPPOSED 'PALISTINIAN' PEOPLE!! ALL YOU PRO-PALISTINANS: ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!!!

Up yours!

up mine... no no my little desert monkey... youd enjoy that a little too much....

why dont you try sticking it in the oven... nice and toasty in there!! try it, let me kow how it goes!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

yea, they didnt have that technology, but they did their share of fighting back (if you mean american indians, if not, then read no further). if you want to call it terrorist act, the people (oppressors) that came on THEIR land, they (indians) would attack travelers and carvans and shit and then cut off their scalp.
they werent about the let their land just get trampled on and sit down and not do anything
and you guys are asking why palestinians are doing what they are doing. their land is being trampled on too. but its alright, they should just go along with it, shouldn't they?

quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike up mine... no no my little desert monkey... youd enjoy that a little too much.... why dont you try sticking it in the oven... nice and toasty in there!! try it, let me kow how it goes!

First off.. this "little desert monkey" thing is not even funny... and second.. why are you trying to pis demon off even further.. same with Demon... dont respond to his replies if it makes you angry... both of you have taken this too far.

quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike up mine... no no my little desert monkey... youd enjoy that a little too much.... why dont you try sticking it in the oven... nice and toasty in there!! try it, let me kow how it goes!

I hope you know people have recently been banned for making racist comments that were far less blatant than that.
Watch what you say, in fact think about what you say.
That stupid comment has completely undermined everything the other pro israelis have said in this thread.
I'm sorry guys but it's retards like this that are giving Israel such a shitty image.....

Indeed, let's all refrain from 13 yr old fightings and remarks from now on.

quote:

Originally posted by oDrori Indeed, let's all refrain from 13 yr old fightings and remarks from now on.

sounds good to me

come on guys, this is just forums, we have different opinions and are just arguing/discussing about it. no need to get all mad and crazy

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Palestine never was a country. It was always a colony or a region. But that doesn't mean there are no palestinians. Are there no Kurds because they don't have their own country?

my Croatian brotha is right here, or so i presume

haha.

>JM<

quote:

What exactly are we cowardly cinical bullies denying? What fictions have we made up?

It has been a fundamental tenor of Israelis that there were no ethnic cleansings in the war of 1948. Elaborate fictions are invented to hide or cover up what happened at Deir Yassin. Did the arabs in that town just decide to shoot themselves? Did the arabs in Lydda and Ramla decide to ethnically cleanse themselves, I could just imagine what they said "Here European invaders take our land, we dont want it. We want to live in a refugee camp, you deserve to have our land so much more than we do"

To support my point heres a quote from one of your lads:

Shmuel Toledano [former Israeli Labor Party adviser on Arab affairs], "Talking to the P.L.O.," Middle East International, August 28, 1993, pp. 20-21 [reprinted from Ha'aretz
(Israel), August 13, 1993]. An excerpt:

It is worth remembering here that members of the Palestinian delegation went to Tunis in order to submit their resignation for one reason: because they were not prepared to accept the P.L.O.'s orders to respond positively to the U.S. proposal.
They were demanding a more extremist, negative line. Is this not another good reason to prefer direct talks with the Tunis P.L.O.?
. . .In real terms, the P.L.O. and the Palestinians have long abandoned their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle. Now they are saying: "We are willing to refrain from exercising this right, although nobody can possibly disagree with the right itself." In a letter sent on 19 January 1991 by Nabil Sha'th, the chair of
the P.L.O.'s political department, to Harold Saunders, then the U.S. Secretary of State's aide in Middle East Affairs, [Sha'th] said: "I have received a copy of the framework agreement. I am pleased to say that I have been authorised by the P.L.O. to adopt this document and support it as a valuable basis for future negotiations towards peace. . . ." Among other things, the document contains a chapter dealing with the right of return and with the refugees. It says on this subject: "The procedure towards the Palestinians who will wish to return to their homes or to receive compensation will be discussed during the peace process. A collective return of Palestinians to their homes is not envisaged."

How could they abandon their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle if if they werent living there in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by rupert It has been a fundamental tenor of Israelis that there were no ethnic cleansings in the war of 1948. Elaborate fictions are invented to hide or cover up what happened at Deir Yassin. Did the arabs in that town just decide to shoot themselves? Did the arabs in Lydda and Ramla decide to ethnically cleanse themselves, I could just imagine what they said "Here European invaders take our land, we dont want it. We want to live in a refugee camp, you deserve to have our land so much more than we do" To support my point heres a quote from one of your lads: Shmuel Toledano [former Israeli Labor Party adviser on Arab affairs], "Talking to the P.L.O.," Middle East International, August 28, 1993, pp. 20-21 [reprinted from Ha'aretz (Israel), August 13, 1993]. An excerpt: It is worth remembering here that members of the Palestinian delegation went to Tunis in order to submit their resignation for one reason: because they were not prepared to accept the P.L.O.'s orders to respond positively to the U.S. proposal. They were demanding a more extremist, negative line. Is this not another good reason to prefer direct talks with the Tunis P.L.O.? . . .In real terms, the P.L.O. and the Palestinians have long abandoned their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle. Now they are saying: "We are willing to refrain from exercising this right, although nobody can possibly disagree with the right itself." In a letter sent on 19 January 1991 by Nabil Sha'th, the chair of the P.L.O.'s political department, to Harold Saunders, then the U.S. Secretary of State's aide in Middle East Affairs, [Sha'th] said: "I have received a copy of the framework agreement. I am pleased to say that I have been authorised by the P.L.O. to adopt this document and support it as a valuable basis for future negotiations towards peace. . . ." Among other things, the document contains a chapter dealing with the right of return and with the refugees. It says on this subject: "The procedure towards the Palestinians who will wish to return to their homes or to receive compensation will be discussed during the peace process. A collective return of Palestinians to their homes is not envisaged." How could they abandon their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle if if they werent living there in the first place?

Fine, we're on the same page. Of course tehre are making up of things, I've seen some myself and am not proud of it.
So none of the Palestines fictionized anything, ever? As much as I would hate to admit it, both sides are misusing the media and have done so for years. Some of the Palestines are suffering, in fact a lot of them. Would that qualify them as poor, bullied victims even if they start making cases up (I'm reffering to those who do)?


Also, I haven't seen your relation to these :

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

quote:

Originally posted by oDrori Why don't you change the word Aboriginal to Jewish?

And I've just also thought we mighta fucking end all the mid east talk and ask all of the involved :

HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING BETTER TO SUGGEST AND WHAT?

Cause finding the ideal solution is a bit harder than say "This sucks" , especially easier than blaming the suckage at anyone.

when you guys say aboriginese, who exactly are you talking about?

quote:

my Croatian brotha is right here, or so i presume

da, tu sam, dobro pretpostavljas

quote:

Originally posted by liquidxxd when you guys say aboriginese, who exactly are you talking about?

Native Australians I believe?

Their will be rumours of war and war...

firstly a brief explanation of who the aborigines are which will deal with the other issues.

The aborigines are the native australians at the time of the arrival of the first fleet in 1788. The aboriginal people are ethnically and culturally similar and lived throughout Australia when the British first arrived. Which brings me to these

quote:

Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

To be blunt they would have done better if they had something like suicide bombers though obviously with their technology level that wasnt possible. Imperialism is harsh, brutal and callous, whether its the Spanish in South America, the British in Australia, the Jews in Israel. The best that an invaded people can do is fight back as mercilesly as the invaders do. To give an example which demonstrates why this is the best method of resistance compare the Maoris and the Aboriginal people.

The Maoris are the native inhabitants of New Zealand. They were an extremely warlike people who fought the British invaders so succesfully that the British had to compromise with them, effectively recognising their prior sovereignty of their land in the Treaty of Waitangi (I dont know if this is spelt correctly)

The Aboriginal people fought back against their land being taken, but far less effectively than the Maoris. The British found it a lot easier to dispossess them, they were weaker than the Maoris. Thus no Treaty, no recognition of prior sovereignty. It was only in the 1990's that the government of Australia had to recognise that the Aboriginal people had prior ownership of the land, and that was as a result of a court decision. Conquerors do not respect those that they can easily beat.

quote:

Why don't you change the word Aboriginal to Jewish?

That would be fair enough to say that in the 1940's. Jews long ago stopped being able to claim the mantle of victimhood. Maybe in some parts of Eastern Europe, the Middle East their are Jews who still suffer persecution. If you say this is what happens, I will take your word for it. Jews however dont live in ghettos in the West anymore. The irony is the only country in the world that Jews cant be safe walking down the street is the one place the Zionists said they would be safe - Israel

quote:

HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING BETTER TO SUGGEST AND WHAT?

Well I do, and i have said stated my position before but I will repeat it. Before I do I would have to explain how I perceive the relevant parties to the dispute. I will try as brief as possible.

The PLO. Despite what is said by the Israelis the PLO is a very sorry excuse for a liberation organisation. A large measure of why the palestinians are in such a sorry state is because of their poor leadership. They in truth lack any real support from the average palestinian who thinks they are a sell out, Arafat is only marginally popular because the Israelis harrass him mercillesly. I dont know for sure but I would suspect that Hamas has far more popular support than the PLO.

The palestinian leadership could have gone either of two ways the way of the ANC in South Africa, or the way of the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. The ANC chose the path of inspired leadership and generating popular support in the west. The Tamil Tigers chose the path of utterly merciless civil war, showing no quarter to the Sri Lankan army and generating money from the Tamil community abroad. The PLO never really tried to get popular support in the West and it relied for funding from rich arabs. The PLO has principally tried to obtain its goals via negotiation, the palestinians saw the Oslo accords as a sell out. The PLO try to get concessions via negotiations, they foolishly think the international community will get them a fair deal.

The Israelis well, they dont really care what anyone thinks, they use diplomacy knowing that they have the upper hand, what with a massive army and Uncle Sam in its corner. They think the PLO is weak.

The Israelis. At its core Israel is a deeply divided country, a secular western element on the one hand and a nasty vicious racist element on the other. At its core both elements believe that Israel is a Jewish state, a home for Jewish people, no matter they have never lived their before a jew can always migrate to Israel. Contrast this with an Arab palestinian whose grandparents were driven out of Israel by the Stern Gang or whoever, they have no right to live in Israel, unless they were lucky enough not to get driven out in 1948.

That is the core issue. Israel is a state for jewish people. Arabs are second class citizens pure and simple. Until that notion is abandoned, the dispute cant be resolved. The Israeli people conditioned to expect their army is invincible enter any negotiations knowing that they can dictate terms. The guys who did all the negotiations were probably thinking "You dont like the terms of the agreement arabs, too fucking bad. what are you going to do, how many tanks, helicopters do you have?" They are wrong though. Superior firepower never guarantees victory or security.

Of-course even the pathetic deal offered to the arabs in OSLO was still to much for the Settlers. Thus the death of the Israeli primeminister. The only way for a peaceful solution in my view is

1 an apology by Israel to the palestinians for what happened in 1948
2 reparations in the form of compensation to those arabs who can prove they or their immediate relatives were driven out of their land in the war.
3 immediate and unconditional withdrawl of the settlements
4 investment in the West Bank and Gaza in the form of factories, roads, hospitals etc.
5 replacement of the leadership of the PLO with more effective and less corrupt leaders.
6 return the Golan heights to Syria.
7 negotiate contractual arrangements for the Water Supply that israel needs from the Palestinian Authority and Lebanon.

Of course Israel will never do any of the above things, even if the Likud party lose the election. The political system is too fractured and the population are to convinced that their army and their nuclear weapons will protect them. Therefore the middle-east problems CANNOT be resolved via negotiation. The people on the ground on both sides are not prepared to accept a negotiated settlement even if one were offered.

Israel WILL lose this war. Principally because the Arabs after fifty years finally believe they can win. Arafat the PLO have no more control over the suicide bombers than I do of when the sun comes up in the morning. Israel will gradually be ground into the dust economically when it can no longer afford its massive army.

As I've said, I'm a left-wing Israeli, I am with the peaceful side etc.
But with time, as the idea for solutions keep coming up I keep losing hope.

It's true, Israel is a Jewish state, that's it's sole purpose... History slapped our sorry ass time and time again and it's time we learned a lesson, before we are extinct and the world will patriotically say "They were poor haunted people".

Now, if your suggestions of solution do work, this state will be another Arab state... I didn't understand from your post if you think this could be a neautral state but if you do then you should rethink.

What happens once this is an Arab state? As horrible as it sounds, this could turn into '33-39 Germany for all we know... THink about it, 24,000,000 palestines and other migrating Arabs are gonna live here, and about 6 million Jews. Whether officially this would be an equal state or not, we would be mocked and treated like garbage, not to mention the instability as both Jew and Palestine riots will end the lives of many.


Basically if you would agree with me and still keep with your point, you think the locating of a Jewish state here is wrong... Do you?

quote:

Originally posted by rupert To be blunt they would have done better if they had something like suicide bombers though obviously with their technology level that wasnt possible.

So they could steal British guns and use them, but stealing British gunpoweder, strapping it across their waist, and blowing themselves up with it, is to technologically complex for these guys eh?

Or perhaps they were just sane?

Now as for "ethnic cleansing". There was no "Ethnic cleansing". Yes, some people were forced out of their homes, but we must rememebr this was during a WAR. Jews were likewise expelled from Palestinain controlled areas in 1948. Many people are expelled or flee (the majority always tend to flee) in every war. These people become refugee. You see the only refugees in the world to not be intergrated and get passed their refugeeism seem to be the Palestinians, odd no?

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The PLO. Despite what is said by the Israelis the PLO is a very sorry excuse for a liberation organisation.

No, this IS what the Israelis say.

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The Israelis well, they dont really care what anyone thinks, they use diplomacy knowing that they have the upper hand, what with a massive army and Uncle Sam in its corner. They think the PLO is weak. The Israelis. At its core Israel is a deeply divided country, a secular western element on the one hand and a nasty vicious racist element on the other. At its core both elements believe that Israel is a Jewish state, a home for Jewish people, no matter they have never lived their before a jew can always migrate to Israel. Contrast this with an Arab palestinian whose grandparents were driven out of Israel by the Stern Gang or whoever, they have no right to live in Israel, unless they were lucky enough not to get driven out in 1948. That is the core issue. Israel is a state for jewish people. Arabs are second class citizens pure and simple. Until that notion is abandoned, the dispute cant be resolved. The Israeli people conditioned to expect their army is invincible enter any negotiations knowing that they can dictate terms. The guys who did all the negotiations were probably thinking "You dont like the terms of the agreement arabs, too fucking bad. what are you going to do, how many tanks, helicopters do you have?" They are wrong though. Superior firepower never guarantees victory or security.

I don't know where you got the stuff to form your theory above, but it is quiet far fetched by all sides except the most extreme. You might want to re-examine these views one day, so you may arrive at a better realistic assessment of the situation/

quote:

Of-course even the pathetic deal offered to the arabs in OSLO was still to much for the Settlers. Thus the death of the Israeli primeminister.

Again, this is a very extremist view point, and highly debatable. Lucky for you, I don't feel very debatable today

quote:

The only way for a peaceful solution in my view is 1 an apology by Israel to the palestinians for what happened in 1948

What did happen in 1948?? Do you know?
If Israel had to apology it would go something like this:
"We are sorry you decided to attack us in an effort to exterminate the whole lot of us, and we didn't lose to you, but actually put up a better fight then you and kicked your ass".

quote:

2 reparations in the form of compensation to those arabs who can prove they or their immediate relatives were driven out of their land in the war.

Ok, but fair enough. If we get palestinains who fled of their own will (and then some that were expelled) to get payed then I first ask that:

1. Israel gets payed reperations from the Arabs who did attack them in 1948.
2. Israel gets payed by Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and the PA for all wars and deaths caused to them and by them over the long years.

Further, Jews require all the governments of Europe, Russia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, where they fled for their lives under severe persecution during times of war and peace to pay reperiations for these people.

quote:

3 immediate and unconditional withdrawl of the settlements

Why unconditional? Did Israel just lose a war to the Palestinians that it can bring no conditions of its own?

What makes you think Israel will change its mind on its preconcieved 'condition' that will lead to the withdrawl of the settlements - Security?

quote:

4 investment in the West Bank and Gaza in the form of factories, roads, hospitals etc.

Ok, that part Israel already did - repeatedly.

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5 replacement of the leadership of the PLO with more effective and less corrupt leaders.

Wait, so now you actually want Israel, to chose the leadership of the Palestinians?? Even Israel, won't do this now (even though they would probably love to).

quote:

6 return the Golan heights to Syria.

What, how'd Syria come into the Palestinian mix?

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7 negotiate contractual arrangements for the Water Supply that israel needs from the Palestinian Authority and Lebanon.

Sure, why not. Why throw Lebanon into the mix though? To complicate it further so no accord can be reached with the PA alone?

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Of course Israel will never do any of the above things,

Well Israel already HAS done point 4 and 7.

Ok now in summary of your "peace points". What do the Palestinians have to do in exchange for this peace? Nothing I see eh? Not even stop all terrorism, and be buddy buddy with Israel huh?

What in the world therefore makes you believe that then Israel would agree to such unilateral and backwords setting agreements?

I mean I would think out of the 7, you might have included something where the Palestinans DO something in exchange for all they recieve. Or do you think they are perfectly fine how they are right now?

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even if the Likud party lose the election. The political system is too fractured and the population are to convinced that their army and their nuclear weapons will protect them.

*YAWN*, ya to bad Israel has no "unity" or coalition government... too bad I guess they will have to nuke Palestinian areas - as if that would ever happen viably. .... WACKO!

quote:

Therefore the middle-east problems CANNOT be resolved via negotiation. The people on the ground on both sides are not prepared to accept a negotiated settlement even if one were offered.

What?? What negotiated settlement.. what you offered above was a 7 point plan on how to destroy Israel. It was no settlement, their were no Palestinian concessions what so ever.

And furthermore you are right, they're won't be a negotiated settlement anytime soon - but its not because "nuclear powered Israelis" don't want it but that the "stone propolled palestinians" seem incapable of comprehending it. This is the history and fact of the event.

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Israel WILL lose this war. Principally because the Arabs after fifty years finally believe they can win.

Oh ya, and Israel will win this war because ahhh "they really, really want to! So there!". Come on, the Arabs have thought throughout fifty years that they finally believe they can win. There will be peace, when they FINALLY believe they can lose (as we saw with Egypt and Jordan).

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Arafat the PLO have no more control over the suicide bombers than I do of when the sun comes up in the morning.

You mean to tell me, you give financial support to the sun, and instruct it on its daily activities and operations with utmost guidance and support? Blasphmey I say! Blasphmey!

quote:

Israel will gradually be ground into the dust economically when it can no longer afford its massive army.

You realize, if Israel ever befalls such a desperate fate, it will end once and for all the Palestinian conflict in the most efficient and possibly 'inhumane' way possible. So for the both of us, I hope you are wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

Actually, I read in a book about the middle east and apparently the in the early days of the Zionist movement, when palestine was a british colony, the jews actually resorted to terrorism. If I can remember, there was a group called the Irgun who were a more militant and radical part of the Zionist movement. Their acts of terrorism against arabs and the british was not condoned by the whole Jewish community. You are right, they didn't use suicide bombings though.

The problem with the palestinians is that they are being used by all the other arab countries as a weapon against Israel. No Arab countries would accept (and still won't) accept palestinians into their country. The Arabs all seem to hate each other. THey seem to have this tribal mentality, so it's no surprise that they can't get along with the Jews. Many palestinians are Israeli Arabs who are accepted as Israeli citicens. I bet if Palestine was a State, Jews still wouldn't be allowed to be there.

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