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-- Guns - a personal liberty?
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Also

It's absolutly ridiculous that I at 18 am legally able to go buy a an assault rifle, but yet am not legally able to buy a pint of beer at a bar or pub.

The logic behind that is absurd.

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Originally posted by montie Also It's absolutly ridiculous that I at 18 am legally able to go buy a an assault rifle, but yet am not legally able to buy a pint of beer at a bar or pub. The logic behind that is absurd.

It's also absurd how you can vote for our elected officials at 18, and drive at 16, yet not drink until 21.

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Originally posted by occrider It's also absurd how you can vote for our elected officials at 18, and drive at 16, yet not drink until 21.

I find that rediculous as well....

Ok, even if handguns become illegal to have, what about hunting rifles? You can kill someone with those just as easily as you can kill anyone with a regular gun.

But in my opinion, the problem is that american laws are too indifferent on who gets to own a gun. If there would be extensive psychological examination before giving a gun to someone, it would insure people who are not capable of wielding a gun won't have one and still the person's right to defend would not be violated.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Ok, even if handguns become illegal to have, what about hunting rifles? You can kill someone with those just as easily as you can kill anyone with a regular gun.

I think that it would be a lot harder for someone to carry around a hunting rifle to committ a crime and certainly a lot more conspicuous. I don't think gang members would start walking around DC with hunting rifles and if they did it would be a lot easier for the cops to identify them. I know that if I DID see a criminal walking around the streets with a hunting rifle, I would realize that he was a criminal and run away. However you don't know that someone is carrying a handgun and is about to rob you until it happens.

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Police in England don't have guns for self protection and they get along pretty well (any people out there in england want to prove me wrong go ahead, im not too knowledgeable in english crime).

Well its quite odd with the cops here, If you said that about two years ago you'd be bang on right however With the rise in gun related murders in the UK I think if it keeps the same way for another year or two the cops will get given guns at the moment however, your normal cop who patrols won't have a gun, however one out of 4 or 5 police cars that patrol is a gun car, which has two armed police (SWAT officers) their used as quick response units to bank robberies so on here, their both officers per gun car, an MP5 sub machine gun and a Pump action shotgun, Then theres the actual SWAT Teams who of course are armed to the teeth, then last flying squad dectectives who investigate serious crimes are armed with handguns.

I agree with the idea as in the states it will be so hard to get everyone to give over weapons, but some form on strict checks on people buying firearms, like criminal records, psychological evaluations etc would stop a lot of nuts getting their hands on guns, especially as someone pointed out these militia's in states like Montana and Idaho who have this paranoid lifestyle that everyone is out to get them, their more like private armies, because their so well armed, and with 100s of acres of land they can train very easily and hide stuff easily.

I don't understand some of you people. I'll repeat a statement made earlier: the intent of a gun is to maim or kill. And I agree with this.

It is obvious that a gun can be used for 2 and only 2 reasons:

(A) to main or kill
(B) personal enjoyment, protection, etc

So the question is is the risk of (A) worth the practice of (B). Honestly, who can say it is? Out of all the leisure activities on this planet, are you going to tell me that shooting a gun at a ranch is so damn essential. And there are plenty of ways you can protect your home or anything else besides using a gun that has far less potential of being used inapropriately.

The only thing I agree with is strict (VERY STRICT) laws on owning rifles say for hunting.

hmmm...lets see.

i've been PULLED a gun on, peacefully walking down a rural street heading home.

a friend of mine, who "packs" scared off an intruder breaking into his truck by pointing his GLOCK at the bastard.

now that's both some messed up stuff.

i don't own guns, and am not sure whether i will or want to...
although, i do like shooting them - either at the range, or in the boonies into the gravel pit.

i've shot:

*12-gauge remington shotgun - the short barrel personal defense and the long barrel hunting shotgun.
*.22 caliber semi-automatic rifle.
*Glock 45
*Smith & Wesson .357
*SKS Chinese semi-automatic assault rifle - 31 bullet magazine

i should scan some of my targets after shooting at them
damn i got a good eYe

heh..i guess i've felt the need to say all this...

oh, the glock 45 - one hell of a gun, no wonder the DEA agents use it!

>JM<

ps. NO i do not shoot these guns lika a 'gangsta' with the gun positioned sideways

What Anti-Gun people dont understand is that even if you outlawed guns tomorrow, criminals would still get and wield them. It may become more difficult, but they would still get them. I gaurantee it. Just look at what good outlawing drugs has done to stop people from getting them. If guns are outlawed, and criminals still have them, what is to stop a criminal from carjacking, shooting folks, and breaking into as many houses as he pleases? There would be no guns in the hands responsible citizens to protect themselves. YOU try fighting off an intruder with a kitchen knife.

Ive yet to see anyone present a feasible solution to this problem.

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Originally posted by nrjizer What Anti-Gun people dont understand is that even if you outlawed guns tomorrow, criminals would still get and wield them. It may become more difficult, but they would still get them. I gaurantee it. Just look at what good outlawing drugs has done to stop people from getting them. If guns are outlawed, and criminals still have them, what is to stop a criminal from carjacking, shooting folks, and breaking into as many houses as he pleases? There would be no guns in the hands responsible citizens to protect themselves. YOU try fighting off an intruder with a kitchen knife. Ive yet to see anyone present a feasible solution to this problem.

many people keep prosenting the arguement that people need guns to protect themselves.
How many times have you heard that a gun was useful in repelling or saving the life of an innocent victim?
(i'm not talking about gang members needing guns to protect themselves from rival gangs and such, as you said, and I agree with, those people who really want guns will obtain them illigally).
Now compare this number to the amount of people or children who are killed in gun accidents.
I live in a pretty bad part of Los Angeles and i've never felt the need to carry around a fire arm.
If you are so concerned with protecting yourself, get a tazer or mace.
Besides, does someone who enters your home to steal your TV or Stereo deserve to die?

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Originally posted by nrjizer What Anti-Gun people dont understand is that even if you outlawed guns tomorrow, criminals would still get and wield them. It may become more difficult, but they would still get them. I gaurantee it. Just look at what good outlawing drugs has done to stop people from getting them. If guns are outlawed, and criminals still have them, what is to stop a criminal from carjacking, shooting folks, and breaking into as many houses as he pleases? There would be no guns in the hands responsible citizens to protect themselves. YOU try fighting off an intruder with a kitchen knife. Ive yet to see anyone present a feasible solution to this problem.

This argument was already presented and discussed ... read former posts of this thread. If you disagree with the counterarguments argue those rather than repost the same argument.

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If you are so concerned with protecting yourself, get a tazer or mace.

If someone with a gun breaks into your house, you won't scare him off with a tazer or a mace.

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Besides, does someone who enters your home to steal your TV or Stereo deserve to die?

No, but that person can be scared away with a gun.

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Originally posted by JM i've shot: *12-gauge remington shotgun - the short barrel personal defense and the long barrel hunting shotgun. *.22 caliber semi-automatic rifle. *Glock 45 *Smith & Wesson .357 *SKS Chinese semi-automatic assault rifle - 31 bullet magazine i should scan some of my targets after shooting at them damn i got a good eYe heh..i guess i've felt the need to say all this... oh, the glock 45 - one hell of a gun, no wonder the DEA agents use it! >JM<

being ex-army, i've fired all kinds of shit, including rockets. i have to say, the novelty wore off after about 3 days...
i really don't get people who get a kick out of holding/firing wapons. yeah, i know they make u feel powerful, but that's what scared me about carrying them.
anyway, gun laws and crime aren't necessarily related. switzerland has some of the most liberal gun laws in the world, in fact all men aged 18-35 r eligiable for national service and get a fully automatic assault rifle from the government, yet it also has one of the lowest crime rates. but then it's a rich country with a highly educated population.
on the other hand, i believe that the more guns there r around, the more likely they r to b used. we r all human, and even a peaceful non-violent person can go ape sometimes, so it's best not to have a gun on 1 at anytime.

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Now compare this number to the amount of people or children who are killed in gun accidents.

This is due to ignorant parents. When I was little (3 or so) my dad pulled his revolver down from the closet and showed it to me, and told me not to mess with it or play with it or any gun, because of what it could do. And from then on, I knew better than to play with them. A quick round of parenting goes a long, long way.

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If you are so concerned with protecting yourself, get a tazer or mace. Besides, does someone who enters your home to steal your TV or Stereo deserve to die?

A tazer or mace will do absolutely shit to someone whos pointing a gun at you. And if someone breaks into my house to steal my TV with the intent of shooting me should I try to confront him, and it would potentially save my life, then yes, he does deserve to at least get shot.

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Originally posted by nrjizer This is due to ignorant parents. When I was little (3 or so) my dad pulled his revolver down from the closet and showed it to me, and told me not to mess with it or play with it or any gun, because of what it could do. And from then on, I knew better than to play with them. A quick round of parenting goes a long, long way.

of course it is due to ignorant parents, and when you keep guns legal and as easily available as they currently are in the states these ignorant parents are going to be able to get ahold of guns easily and their kids or someone is going to end up being the victim of an accident.
My dad also showed me his hunting shotgun when i was really young and told me to never touch it and how dangerous it was.
I never tried to mess with it. He taught me how to shoot a gun when we went hunting and taught me how to respect them.
Just because my dad and your dad were responsible with their weapons doesnt justify keeping them as readily available as they are now.
(I'm not arguing for the ban of all guns. If you read my earlier posts I present the arguements of regulations i thought would be appropriate).

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A tazer or mace will do absolutely shit to someone whos pointing a gun at you. And if someone breaks into my house to steal my TV with the intent of shooting me should I try to confront him, and it would potentially save my life, then yes, he does deserve to at least get shot.

Not everyone who enters your home is going to have a gun and/or is wanting to kill you.
I'd like to see some statistics of how many documented times that a gun was necesary in saving the life of an innocent person being assaulted by someone with intent to kill (in the United States).
So many people bring up the arguement that guns are necesary for protection, but I have yet to see any thing that shows me a corralation between thse two things.

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Originally posted by nrjizer What Anti-Gun people dont understand is that even if you outlawed guns tomorrow, criminals would still get and wield them. It may become more difficult, but they would still get them. I gaurantee it. Just look at what good outlawing drugs has done to stop people from getting them. If guns are outlawed, and criminals still have them, what is to stop a criminal from carjacking, shooting folks, and breaking into as many houses as he pleases? There would be no guns in the hands responsible citizens to protect themselves. YOU try fighting off an intruder with a kitchen knife. Ive yet to see anyone present a feasible solution to this problem.

I'm a leftist on most issues, but I have to say I agree with this position for the most part. Some people would like to see confiscation of all people's gun across the whole country, which I don't agree with at all. I don't think we should go back to the days when you could just buy a gun from a mail-order catalog, or from a hardware store. No I am not a gun owner, nor have I ever even fired a gun.

Someone mentioned the concealability of a handgun, and I agree with that point. If you saw a gang member sporting a long arm you would know to avoid them.

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Originally posted by nrjizer This is due to ignorant parents. When I was little (3 or so) my dad pulled his revolver down from the closet and showed it to me, and told me not to mess with it or play with it or any gun, because of what it could do. And from then on, I knew better than to play with them. A quick round of parenting goes a long, long way. A tazer or mace will do absolutely shit to someone whos pointing a gun at you. And if someone breaks into my house to steal my TV with the intent of shooting me should I try to confront him, and it would potentially save my life, then yes, he does deserve to at least get shot.

In my experience when you tell a young person not to do something, they are more likely to do it.....

Re: Guns - a personal liberty?

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Originally posted by Izzy since the issue of gun control basicly comes down to personal liberties, isnt it kinda ironic that usually the left is about clamping down on that personal liberty while the right is the one advocating it? there are those who belive that we should be able to do drugs legaly because it is our personaly freedom to do what we want to our body, why cant this same reasoning apply to guns. why cant i own a gun and take it to my local firing range and allow myself the personal gratification of stress relief or anger managment or any other feeling it my gives me. most arguements that apply to drugs also work for gun laws. an example would be like just as drugs are a controlled substance, it doesnt stop them from being possessed and used. same would hold true for guns. how do must drug proponents act when confornted with the question, drugs are dangerous to society because someone high could jump in a car and drive off impared and dangerous. most of them answer that there are still laws that forbid driving under the influence and it should be the responsibility of the user to obey, not the drug (or whatever valid arguement the bring up). same could be parallelled to guns... even though they may be used for some good they also posses a grave threat, but should that be enough to illegalize them? should we make religion illegal because even though it can be used for good, some abuse it and use it to basicly kill people? ps. i have never owned or intend to own a fire arm of any kind.

-Well, here's an obvious reason why the gun control and stuff. As you used drugs for an example, I'll show you. IF an individual does drugs, he is doing harm to himself, and actually knows what drugs is actually doing to him, he is not harming other people when that person is doing drugs. While guns, if there's no gun control, imagine all the crimes and so on, just think about it, if we have allready too many problems with gans and deaths, guns will not be control and will actually do ALOT of harm to other poeple.. in fact, their deaths. Its logical why there's gun control.. and drugs are been control too so I dont know why you say they arent?

This is why i never called myself a "liberal". Even though most of my views are very open minded, I don't agree with extreme gun control. I believe in the freedom of a person's choice to do what they want, so long as it does not endanger those around them. Though gun violence is a problem, to take away guns entirely won't resolve the underlying issues, the reasons WHY people go out and shoot each other in the first place, so what's the point? If I really wanted to kill someone, I wouldn't need a gun to do it. I could bash someones head in with a baseball bat, or run them over with my car, but are we outlawing either of those things? No, because we understand that it's the responsibility of the people who own these things to use them the way they should be used.

Well said.

I understand why so many leftish people fear people who like to shoot guns, because many of them are ignorant morons who talk about how they want to kill all the Mexicans and "Towelheads" (Arabs) etc.

Go to this website and read some of the threads and you will see what I'm talking about. Show some of these people that they are wrong!

http://forums.gunbroker.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

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Originally posted by NFA being ex-army, i've fired all kinds of shit, including rockets. i have to say, the novelty wore off after about 3 days... i really don't get people who get a kick out of holding/firing wapons. yeah, i know they make u feel powerful, but that's what scared me about carrying them.

aaaahhh it wasnt about being powerful. it was about doing something that is soooo...how to state this....sort of taboo? you know, playing with guns....but in a very safe way though.

frankly i dont care to go shoot ever again. less chance of getting that accident happening and ending up dead.

>JM<

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