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-- urgent ...regarding l-vee (airwave)
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I dont get it.
I dont download MP3's...
But I still dont get it.

ah it's the ol' mp3 debate! I�ll attempt to get my disjointed thoughts across to you...

yes. I download mp3 singles, and I keep them. Sure, it may be considered morally wrong but I still do it. And I'm not going to pretend that I buy every single one of the singles that I download either. But it should be noted that I would never have heard of the works of artists like L-Vee if it weren�t for mp3.

It saddens me to hear that L-Vee is actually considering leaving the industry. But the fact that something like the spread of mp3 can actually push a person to leave the industry is even more depressing. Surely something like mp3 would not have a significant impact on a producer's way of life. I don't believe that mp3s and evil bastards like me can solely be blamed for crippling someone's income. And if the something like mp3 has the capacity to cripple one�s income so that they�re living in poverty or something like that, oh dear god. I�d have to question what kind of lifestyle these people were living in the first place...now that's really depressing.

I certainly don�t deny the fact that mp3s have a negative effect upon producers, financially (although not to the extent of crippling) and psychologically. Of course it would be discouraging to find your album available for download weeks before the release date, if something like the difference between someone having your work on mp3 or actually buying your work matters to you. But, you�d have to narrow-minded to deny the fact that mp3s have assisted producers with expanding their fan base and possibly even increased sales in some instances. It is evident just from communities like this that producers such as L-Vee would never have been heard of by most of his current fans if it weren�t for mp3.

Perhaps I�m just being idealistic, but I always thought that these artists were �in it for the music�, not for the cash. I thought these people would be concerned with creating a piece of work that has meaning; whether it be a reflection of themselves or perhaps something inspired by the world around them. I thought that maybe producers got their greatest reward from seeing their work being appreciated by other people, and witnessing the effect that it has on people, not from the cash they receive from sales. Maybe the money was just an added bonus that could be used to develop even greater works that could convey even more emotion to the masses...but I guess that�s a rather romanticised way to look at the industry, and everyone�s in it for the monetary benefit these days (or perhaps they always were)...ahh well, I suppose money really does make the world go round and I�m an evil music leeching ****.

quote:

Originally posted by PointyDC 'Go King Kickdrum, Keep on Kickin!'

hahah! werd.
gotta love that Sean Cusick column

I wouldn't buy half the stuff I own, if I didn't listen to it first! the only exposure I have to this sort of music is via Mp3, since there is not a dominant trance radio station here in Sydney!

Anyways L-Vee rules, one of the best producers of all time under numerous alias! and as most of you have mentioned it would be a shame if something like Mp3s were to blame for the destruction of such an influential artist

guys ...... what you all fail to realise is that we (Australian's) are not responsible for this. We are a tiny minority compared to the rest of the trance loving world. Due to this fact that trance is more widespread overseas, we get to hear very little trance music for free, whether it be on the radio, TV or whatever compared to Europe or the states. Therefore we have no other viable option than to download. So don't beat yourselves up over it, it's not our problem, we can't solve it, point your fingers elsewhere......

Let me just pitch into the debate here and say, artists, try something new.

MP3 has come into existence. People trade mp3s for free. The quality is good enough for most people. There is no DRM. It's small enough to be moved around a network very quickly at very little cost. It's easy to share for free (excluding the cost of network access and bandwidth)

This is NOT going to change.

I'm sorry, but any protest like throwing your hands in the air and saying "I'm taking my bat and ball and going home" is just doomed to failure.

Work with the problem, not against it. Use the existence of these tools to enlarge your presence, and use them to create new and innovative ways of making money.

How to enlarge you presence? Build something akin to download.com, sourceforge, freshmeat, slashdot.

How to make money from these tools? Build a community, and build support within that community. Invent something new. Get people to pay for something other than just the music. Provide the community with something more, something different. What is that different thing? I don't have all the answers yet.

I'll give you an example of an industry that's doing just that... IT. Piracy has been a big problem for commercial producers since just after the inception of the first PC. No matter how they try to prevent copying, and no matter how many have said "No more! I Quit!", it goes on, the industry and piracy.

Yes, it has taken 40+ years to create some new and very powerful ideas to work with this situation, such as Open Source and Shareware.

Yes, for every attempt the IT industry has made at preventing copying, there has been an equal amount of successful attempts at breaking that control.

Music producers need to break from the hedgemoney of the current music industry. The industry is fighting a desperate front-on battle, which it will ultimately lose. You cannot prevent piracy, and in these days of increasing world-wide bandwidth, you can't even hope to slow it.

Consumers have not, and will not give up something that gives them free access to a resource. I feel the IT industry has shown that it is possible to work with that, and that enough people out there are honest enough for producers to still make quite a living (see iD software and Redhat for an example of this)

This is a brave new world. Embrace it as it is, because you won't change it by fighting it head-on.

very good post bragi.

booker says "don't hate the player, hate the game"



(btw, l-vee i think your music rocks)

quote:

Originally posted by Laurent Veronnez Dear friends, I'm speechless when it comes to reading all those posts. I never expected so much support from you all. I barely know most people signing this petition, and from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank everyone for doing so. John, I never expected someone like you would take the time and the risk to post a petition about me. Thanks for reminding me I am part of a respectful and friendly community that knows rules and boundaries. I took the two last days to think about the situation. Lemme just remind you some facts. All artists putting out music expect to sell records. It's not all about money, it's much more about sharing the love we all have for music, whatever it is. For some reason, many people in our community tend to think sharing mp3's is cool. Of course it's really cool to be able to hear new tracks without having to pay for them, at least when you go out afterwards to buy all the records you like, and when you erase all the pieces of music you haven't bought. It's a karma thing. But in those times, it seems people don't even take the time to think like that. They can't see how much money producers like me spend a year for equipment, recording surfaces, extra software, etc... It's a shame. Everything I got from music got entirely invested in music: records, recording equipment, etc... If making music was just a way to me to buy expensive and luxe things (cars etc...), then I wouldn't stress about quality in my music. And you know all it's not the case. I care so much about it, that's why I considered quitting the business, and making music only for myself, as I think there is everyday less place for quality music in our world. The second reason is just the sequel to the first one. The loss of my second family, bonzai, put me in a pretty bad shape. I couldn't believe there was a future for the kind of music we all were trying to defend through the labels. So, my conclusion is, as long as I can do something to it, I will try to help music getting out of this situation. Music gave me so much, and you all gave me so much too, during the last 7 years. I can't give up now. It's not about money. It's all about the things every single producer/dj is fighting for. Quality, atmosphere in clubs, and a good community, based on a good vibe, that respects legitimate rules. I will keep you informed regarding what will happen in the next few days. I hope I can bring you good news. At least there's one thing I will keep on fighting for, that is music made with heart. Many people in the business deserve their fame because they put their entire hearts in it, I think about people like john, and also about my actual heroes (won't mention them again, just read my interviews on several websites). I hope I can put as much as they do in the future works of mine. I hope this doesn't read too complicated to you all. I will keep you all informed about the future. I have to thank everyone on this board again for their support through the years, and for the kind words I've read here. Talk to you soon Lolo

quote:

Originally posted by eRRaTiK booker says "don't hate the player, hate the game" (btw, l-vee i think your music rocks)

I happen to agree with the sentiment. I just seem to end up hearing this whole argument from a lot of producers (both in person, and seeing their views on the net).

All I can say, is that anyone hoping to return to the staus-quo-ante is living in a dream world. It's not going to happen. The world has changed, and if you don't evolve, you will (metaphorically) die.

I can say now, from having spent far too much time hanging around the psych building when I was at uni, there are pleanty of people out there who would refuse to wear a sweater if the world fell into an iceage. They refuse to believe that change can happen, and so behave like it hasn't, and feel very impotent when it does.

The environment the whole music industry is in is doing a rough parallel of the computer industry, and my money is on the big labels and associations (RIAA etc.) doing the same thing as the big software companies and the BSA, and even IBM when Compaq white-roomed their BIOS.

Denial of reality will see those too fearful of change pass into history as the losers of the battle. The real winners will be everyone that embraces the future and chooses to lead it down the path of good instead of evil.

Oh dear. I seem to have gone on another tirade. I'll try to stop now

One line summary: I love all artists for their art, and have ultimate respect for them because they make something I never can, BUT, I disagree with some artists' attitudes that they can hold onto the past and ignore the future.

if they released better stuff ppl would buy it. dont release crap and solve yoyur money issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Tsunami One if they released better stuff ppl would buy it. dont release crap and solve yoyur money issues.

I fear this may be an overly simplistic view of the situation.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

This leaves you with three things as an artist:

1) Who is going to find this art to be a treasure?
2) How many people?
3) How to get them to reimburse you?

Well, traditionally, the music companies have solved (2) and (3) by binding crap with a couple of pieces of treasure, and making it impossible to legally get one without the other. This really is just ignoring (1).

The internet, and free file sharing are the easiest solution to (1). You could release your songs onto the sharing networks, and just let word-of-mouth work for you. Or you could choose to be a leader, and accelerate the process. When you have a small group of fans (you'd only need 5-10 at the start), seed a community for them to populate as members. As they form a stronger community and bring more people in, word-of-mouth advertising should accelerate. This also gives you an opportunity to have a very close tie to your fan base for feedback.

You'll want to maximise (2), and the best way currently is to maintain and encourage a community, or even better, become and active member of an existing, strong community (to whit, TA). Avoid weak, disparate communities (such as ITM).

Solving (3) is the hardest part. You can count on a solid core of your fans to buy CDs/vinyl/albums etc. T-Shirts, signed memorabilia, and a zillion other trinkets is also obvious. There will be more, and better ways too, it's just that I haven't figured them out yet. This is the area that is ripest for innovation, and also has the biggest potential gains for leaders in the area.

Artists may feel that this really isn't their problem, and that the record companies are what they're signed up to to solve that stuff. Well, wake-up time people, the record companies are not going to solve this. Small, back-yard getups are the ones that will change the world, making the record companies irrelevant.

I know of no revolution against the status-quo that has ever been started by the people at the top of the heirachy. Remember that once, record companies were started and owned by the artists, as a way to increase their sales. It's just that that way is now obsolete, and nothing can change that.

It's up to the artists, and the communities around them to build a new way to get, and pay for art. I for one am willing to help, but I don't have all the answers, or a magic bullet to fix the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Tsunami One if they released better stuff ppl would buy it. dont release crap and solve yoyur money issues.

Yep, sometimes I hear live sets etc that are so good but the cd's released are crap.

Anyhow, my opinion is that everyone will d/l mp3's as long as they are free! Most of the stuff I d/l is live sets and a few odd songs to see if I like it, then if I do I buy it! (Oh and stuff I can't buy or find)
I think we pay too much for cd's etc, it's not us ripping off the producers and artists, it's the record companies!

quote:

Originally posted by Chookie Yep, sometimes I hear live sets etc that are so good but the cd's released are crap.

A very good point. As a consumer, I love live sets. But how am I able to reimburse the artist? Or who indeed should I be reimbursing?

If I have a liveset from AvB, should I pay him a royalty? Should he then distribute a portion of that royalty to all the artists of the songs he used?

One thing is for certain: It is completely impractical to expect me as a consumer to track down every track in a live set, and purchase it in normal retail channels. Imagine having to purchase 30 albums on CD, containing probably more than 250 songs I didn't actually want, and probably don't mcuh enjoy.

I doubt even a micro-payment model would work here.

What would work? I don't know. Probably some day soon someone will figure that out.

In fact, can anyone tell me what the current licensing requirements are for a DJ playing a public performance?

Are vinyls so expensive because we're purchasing a public performance license for the music?

someone d'loads alive set -> listens to it @ home -> likes it alot -> when the artists comes to town the person slams down there $40 and see's them -> person d'loads some of there songs - > person likes them and buys their vinyls/cd's etc..


artist gets paid. they ebtter eb careful because they are biting the hand that feeds them .

^^^ exactly. there's no way in hell i'd have forked out to see armin 3 times in the last 6 months without mp3. and i'd have gone NOWHERE NEAR dumonde when they came out here if those little compressed bundles of digital goodness hadn't sparked my interest.

Buying records is a different matter though -- many (like me) won't buy a cd if they've got the mp3. Those artists who DJ are probably doing better out of this than those who don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Tsunami One someone d'loads alive set -> listens to it @ home -> likes it alot -> when the artists comes to town the person slams down there $40 and see's them -> person d'loads some of there songs - > person likes them and buys their vinyls/cd's etc..

Point well taken

I'm not sure whether it was on this board or something else, but someone pointed out one thing MP3s have definitely killed off in our little niche genre, is the compilation CD. A few years ago, you want to hear what new tracks are out, you pick up a couple of compilation CDs and have a listen to what's happening.

Don't need to do that anymore -- and you rarely see them around these days (apart from the monoliths like Godskitchen, Ministry, Gatecrasher and Global Underground).

if airwave is saying most of the money he recieves from his productions goes into buying records and various software and he is therefore not as well off as we percieve, how does he expect the "common folk" to dish out the same amount he does on "legal music", whether he chooses too spend all his cash back into music or not is one thing, but other people dont have that luxuary, which is where mp3 comes in as a powerfull screening tool...

Stop talking like a robot bragi
j/k

L-Vee kicks ass one of the best trance producers plus no cheese in his house.
If only they would release more vinyls of his tracks, everytime i go to buy a track of his its out of stock. Im sure if they stocked up on tracks like Green Martian "industry" Airwave "another dimension"(many more) he would get some cash.

I dont hear M.I.K.E and the others calling it quits , has L-Vee lost the love or just trying to get over the down-fall of Bonzai records?

Trance lives on through the soul.

Why doesnt L-Vee just download pirated software off the net to make mp3's, then everyone's happy.

Has Laurent Veronnez ever toured here? A lot of us would pay to see him if he visits our cities.

Original CDs and vinyl records provide the best audio quality, as opposed to MP3 in which quality has been lost due to compression. That is why I buy CDs, even if I have the same tracks in MP3 format. I think I have over 200 CD singles and 100 albums/compilations/mixes.

However I believe $20 for a track is exorbitant. That is why I scour used music stores and frequently pick up treasures for under $4 each. I've found treasures like Push - Strange world, Airwave - I want to believe, Humate - 3, BT - Mercury & solace, Disco citizens - Nagasaki badger, York - The awakening, etc. It's a great feeling to be in possession of great tracks that are in the best possible audio format currently available - CD audio. In some years from now, the best possible format will be DVD audio, and the MP3 format will be considered even more inferior.

If I could get every Fire & ice single for $4 each, I'd buy every one without thinking about it. It's a different story if they are $20 each... I'd be satisfied with the MP3s.

Where does the money go from the money we pay for music sales?
How about from event tickets?
How about from royalties for tracks being used in compilations/mixes like the Gatecrasher series?

How much more can artists get if the middlemen are eliminated?

He should DJ more...he'd make a fucking fortune.

quote:

Originally posted by Hyperdimension Where does the money go from the money we pay for music sales? How about from event tickets? How about from royalties for tracks being used in compilations/mixes like the Gatecrasher series? How much more can artists get if the middlemen are eliminated?

I think this should answer some of your questions quite well.

quote:

From slashdot.org "The NY Daily News has an uplifting look at the fate of a (hypothetical) 4-piece band "making it big" in today's RIAA-driven music industry. The condensed version: A band that sells 500,000 records for $8,490,000 gross ends up (after a few iterations of the new math) with $161,909 in their pocket. Split four ways, that's a whopping $40,477.25 each for a record that probably took close to a year to produce. And this is for a record that goes gold (as per the article, only 128 of some 30,000 records released in 2002 were so privileged). And I bet you wanted to be a rock star when you were a kid..."

quote:

that's a whopping $40,477.25 each for a record that probably took close to a year to produce

moral of the story.. don't quit your day job. unless you have other things happening to generate income (tours, marketing, etc).

do most djs/producers hold PT/casual/FT day jobs to support their productions? (before they reach the millions of $$, IF they get there)

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