Cyrus, AZ, Nalin, Ahamalek, Tranceaholic

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-- Cyrus, AZ, Nalin, Ahamalek, Tranceaholic
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Posted by Tranex02 on Mar-24-2003 16:11:

hehe! its been a while since we've had one of these threads....

...the dates seem pretty accurate....don't forget the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin for his efforts to establish peace...

melech_mike.... could u tell us again what exactly u want to know??? or what you're not sure about???
keep in mind that....regardless of the facts, there are other issues that will be disagreed upon, including opinions and motives, due to the different frames of reference.

Posted by oDrori on Mar-24-2003 16:30:

Posted by melech_mike on Mar-24-2003 17:17:

quote:
Originally posted by tranced_out
Dude calm the fuk down. First of all I apologize if my last post set ur panties on fire, but here are some facts which I hope will clears up some of the questions you asked....

1845: The number of Jews in Palestine is about 12,000.

1897: The Zionist movement is started in Basel, Switzerland. Zionism's goal was to establish "for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law".

1917 November 2: The Balfour declaration, a letter by the foreign secretary Arthur James Balfour to the English Zionist leader lord Rothschild, gives support to the Zionist case.

1918-39: The Jews organize their own social and political institutions, which exercise much control over their own population. Hebrew language is fostered, and the Hebrew University is founded in Jerusalem.

1922: The League of Nations adopt the Balfour declaration, and leaves Britain in charge of Palestine, and in assisting the Jews in "reconstituting their national home in that country". Jews represent 11% of the population in Palestine with their 85,000, compared to the 670,000 Palestinians.

1930s: Large influx of Jews, frightened by persecution in Germany. New towns and villages were created, hundreds of kibbutzes founded.

1931: 175,000 Jews and 860,000 Arabs live in Palestine (17%).

1936: Arab revolts against the constant Jewish immigration, but there was no suppression by the British forces until 1939. 385,000 Jews and 980,000 Arabs live in Palestine (28%) by now.

1937: Great Britian suggests that Palestine should be divided into a Jewish and an Arab state.

1939: The British impose a stop on the Jewish immigration. AT this time 450,000 Jews and 1,060,000 Arabs live in Palestine (30%)

1945: With the ending of World War II, and the horrors of holocaust were laid open, Zionist demands on self-government increased. From now on, illegal immigration to Palestine was organized.

1947: UN takes control over Palestine.
� November 29: A UN plan for dividing Palestine into two countries, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem as international zone, is presented. This plan was immediately met by violent protest from the Arabs. 590,000 Jews and 1,320,000 Arabs live in Palestine (31%).

1948 May 14: The new Jewish state, State of Israel, is proclaimed by the Jewish Provisional State Council. Chaim Weizmann becomes president, and the Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion the new prime minister. The secret Jewish army, Haganah, is declared as the new army of Israel.
� May 15: Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq join the Arab guerillas in fight against the Jews.

1948-51: Around 700,000 Jews immigrate to Israel.

1949 February 24: Peace in the Middle East. Egypt declares that the agreement on cease fire, is not an acceptance of the state of Israel. The Israeli territory has increased from the 15,500 km� that the UN-resolution of 1947 gave them, to 20,700 km�. Gaza Strip becomes Egyptian, and the West Bank Jordanian. There had been 800,000 Arabs living in the area that now became Israel, and only 170,000 had been able to stay. The remaining hundreds of thousands, moved into refugee camps in neighboring countries.

1950: Due to the heavy immigration, the Israeli economy faces serious difficulties. Aid is provided by Jewish organizations around the world, and the US government.

1956: Israel attacks Egypt, and is joined by British and French troops. Israel is much motivated by the Egyptian blockade of ships calling at the Israeli port of Eilat. The British and the French are taking revenge after the Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. The three countries had swift victories, but the UN, supported by both USA and the Soviet Union, intervened after few days. Towards the end of the year the three countries had left Sinai, but Israel still held forces in Gaza.

1957: Israel leaves Gaza, after USA had promised help to keep the Gulf of Aqaba open for ships calling at Israel.

1963: Ben Gurion resigns as prime minister and is succeeded by Levi Eshkol.

1967 June 5: Political and security tensions, with increase of Arab troops stationed along the Israeli borders, provokes Israel to a surprise attack on Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.
� June 10: Seizure of battles on the Syrian front, the last battleground of the war that came to be called the Six-Day War. Israel has occupied a large strip of the Syrian Golan Heights, along all of the former border line, East Jerusalem and the West Bank which had been annexed by Jordan almost 20 years earlier, the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip, and the Egyptian territory of Sinai. About 1,5 million Arabs are now under Israeli administration.

1969: Golda Meir becomes new prime minister of Israel.

1972: 11 Israeli athletes are killed by Palestinian guerrilla in the Summer Olympics of Munich, Germany.

1973 October 6: Yom Kippur War, where Egypt and Syria attacks Israel in order to recapture territory occupied in 1967. Arab power had clearly increased since the last war, but after 3 weeks of fighting Israeli restores control.
� Demands from the Israeli military costs so much that the budgets are exceeded to an extent that national economy suffers for years to come.

1974: With the ghost of the Yom Kippur War, and facing the defeat in the parliamentary elections, Golda Meir is not capable of establishing a new government, and resigns.
� Yitzhak Rabin becomes new prime minister.

1977: When not being able to refute accusations on financial irregularities in the private economy, Rabin experiences a defeat in the parliamentary elections.
� Menachim Begin becomes new prime minister. A period of even more deterioration of the economy starts, despite new politics from Begin's conservative government.

� November 19: Visit to Jerusalem by the president of Egypt, Anwar as-Sadat, and the start of the peace process between Israel and Egypt.

1979 March 26: Camp David Agreement signed between Egypt and Israel. Israeli withdrawal from Sinai starts, and goes on for the next 3 years. The second part of the agreement, which dealt with autonomy for the Palestinians on Gaza Strip and the West Bank, is never observed from Israeli side.

1980: Knesset declares the united and complete Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

1981 June 7: Israel fighters bomb a nuclear reactor in Baghdad, Iraq, claiming that this was being used to produce nuclear weapons to be used against Israel.

Second of all if you call me a 'kid' one more time i will personally come to where u live and bitch slap u back to the stone ages...
_|_

That whole post was a waste of time...KID!
I'm glad to see you know how to copy and paste material from a pro-Arab source! Don't you just love bias

Some of you try really hard to get off topic, but if you concentrate hard enough, perhaps you will see that not one of the points you made answered any of my questions.
How do you or any of the 'genius�s' who posted after and in support of you figure that post answered:

quote:
Originally posted by melech_mike
If Israel is "occupying" territories today, who was occupying them until 1967?

If the West Bank and Gaza belong to "Palestinians", why were they under the control of Jordan and Egypt until June 5, 1967?

If Arab "Palestinians" just want their own state, why didn't they ask for it before 1967?

Why is it, according to many articles written in 1967, that when the Arabs talked about "occupied territories", they meant all of Israel?

---------------------------------
So many fuckin bias's in you post. The post doesn't deserve the credit it's getting.

quote:
� May 15: Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq join the Arab guerillas in fight against the Jews.

Was this not a full out war declared and initiated by the Arab nations against Israel? Don't you think whoever it was who wrote these points, didn't want to put so much emphasis on this point for the simple reason of belittling it's importance.

quote:
There had been 800,000 Arabs living in the area that now became Israel, and only 170,000 had been able to stay. The remaining hundreds of thousands, moved into refugee camps in neighboring countries.

Who asked them to leave? Why don't your points say that it was the Arab nations who surrounded Israel who asked these Arab's to leave Israel�s borders. They promised them that after Israel is annihilated by their armies, all those Arabs can go back to Israel and claim whatever land they want.

1956 - Israel attacks Egypt.... are you being serious. The way that point is presented is so awfully biased. If you look for other sources besides this one you will see what the problem in this post is (besides of course not answering the questions posed).

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Melech-mike..... you just got BITCH SLAPPED!!!!!

As for me.. i am being bombarded with work seeing that its march crunch time and profs are pounding us with papers.

So, once my exams are done... i would be happy to restart this thread and help you answer questions that have obviously been blocked by your extremely stupid Zionist mind.

You'll be done exams with 3 weeks, as will I.
I will hold you on your word and make sure the questions i put forth, you will answer.
I have a feeling the only bitch slaps around here will be from your mother beating you for talking so much shit.

quote:
Originally posted by ZinG
I just woke up
Thank you dude now that u mentioned the Specific dates!
melech_mike now let's end this subject since it's going nowhere
Don't you think everyone wants peace at the end? Where are you going with your questions about Palestine & Israel, i don't think anyone wanna fight about it anymore. Make a fuckin treaty and live in peace so stop bitcihng.

Is this guy a character or what!
I'm sorry to inform you but these "specific dates" don�t answer anything. This subject is going nowhere because people like you are sidestepping the questions and spewing out ridiculous posts. Stay on track and don�t run away from answering these questions.

You claim to have the answers, so give them to us!!!

I don�t think that everyone wants peace in the end. The only end for Arafat and his al-aqsa martyrs brigade, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and many others is the total destruction of Israel - as stated in many of their charter's.
If Arafat wanted peace, he would have showed the world within his 30+ years as chairman.
If he wanted peace he would have accomplished something with the 5 Israeli Prime Minister's who have come and gone with no luck of getting this man to really think peace!

quote:
Originally posted by oDrori
I want to appologize in advance for a virtually ridiculous post, but I will now reply with something I've seen too fucking many times around here when I couldn't reply to laugh at;

Biased! Your post is biased! You have presented countless correct facts (actually I'd like to correct a few but can't be arsed)but they are all supporting just one side of the story, therefore I render your entire post useless and will not relate to it!
100%!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Izzy on Mar-24-2003 21:19:

quote:
Originally posted by tranced_out
Dude calm the fuk down. First of all I apologize if my last post set ur panties on fire, but here are some facts which I hope will clears up some of the questions you asked....

1845: The number of Jews in Palestine is about 12,000.

yes that is the number of jews living there at the time, but do you know the total inhabitants of the area? it wasnt a lot more then 100,000. that means the jews made up abuot 10% of the population which is definetly a considerable amount

quote:

1897: The Zionist movement is started in Basel, Switzerland. Zionism's goal was to establish "for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law".

nothing wrong with that? i wish more movements would adapt similar peaceful movements

quote:

1917 November 2: The Balfour declaration, a letter by the foreign secretary Arthur James Balfour to the English Zionist leader lord Rothschild, gives support to the Zionist case.

here's what it says:
"Her Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done whcih may predjudice the civil and religious rights of exsisting non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in other countries."

quote:

1918-39: The Jews organize their own social and political institutions, which exercise much control over their own population. Hebrew language is fostered, and the Hebrew University is founded in Jerusalem.

1922: The League of Nations adopt the Balfour declaration, and leaves Britain in charge of Palestine, and in assisting the Jews in "reconstituting their national home in that country". Jews represent 11% of the population in Palestine with their 85,000, compared to the 670,000 Palestinians.

1930s: Large influx of Jews, frightened by persecution in Germany. New towns and villages were created, hundreds of kibbutzes founded.

1931: 175,000 Jews and 860,000 Arabs live in Palestine (17%).

nothing wrong so far
worth mentioning that as well as jew immagrating to israel (which was the point of the Balfour declaration, no?) the arab population increased 120% between 1922 and 1947. most of this growth took place in the major cities (haifa, jerusalem and jaffa), not outside farm land.

quote:

1936: Arab revolts against the constant Jewish immigration, but there was no suppression by the British forces until 1939. 385,000 Jews and 980,000 Arabs live in Palestine (28%) by now.

revolts as in violence? the beginning of terrorism? shame it could have not all started by peaceful means. but beside that the squads of 'fedayeen' were organized by Haj Amin el-Husseini to terrorize the jews in 1921

quote:

1937: Great Britian suggests that Palestine should be divided into a Jewish and an Arab state.

really? im curious to know where they said that... the only thing i know that came out of the brits officially in 1937 was the peel commission which basicly said that "the shortfall of land is due less to the amount of land aquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population"

quote:

1939: The British impose a stop on the Jewish immigration. AT this time 450,000 Jews and 1,060,000 Arabs live in Palestine (30%)

wasnt that going agianst what the balfour papers invisioned?

quote:

1945: With the ending of World War II, and the horrors of holocaust were laid open, Zionist demands on self-government increased. From now on, illegal immigration to Palestine was organized.

1947: UN takes control over Palestine.
� November 29: A UN plan for dividing Palestine into two countries, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem as international zone, is presented. This plan was immediately met by violent protest from the Arabs. 590,000 Jews and 1,320,000 Arabs live in Palestine (31%).

1948 May 14: The new Jewish state, State of Israel, is proclaimed by the Jewish Provisional State Council. Chaim Weizmann becomes president, and the Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion the new prime minister. The secret Jewish army, Haganah, is declared as the new army of Israel.
� May 15: Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq join the Arab guerillas in fight against the Jews.

1948-51: Around 700,000 Jews immigrate to Israel.

good so far

quote:

1949 February 24: Peace in the Middle East. Egypt declares that the agreement on cease fire, is not an acceptance of the state of Israel. The Israeli territory has increased from the 15,500 km� that the UN-resolution of 1947 gave them, to 20,700 km�. Gaza Strip becomes Egyptian, and the West Bank Jordanian. There had been 800,000 Arabs living in the area that now became Israel, and only 170,000 had been able to stay. The remaining hundreds of thousands, moved into refugee camps in neighboring countries.

i like the fairness in the last sentence. the moved (of their own will) into refugee camps, not forced to move

quote:

1950: Due to the heavy immigration, the Israeli economy faces serious difficulties. Aid is provided by Jewish organizations around the world, and the US government.

1956: Israel attacks Egypt, and is joined by British and French troops. Israel is much motivated by the Egyptian blockade of ships calling at the Israeli port of Eilat. The British and the French are taking revenge after the Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. The three countries had swift victories, but the UN, supported by both USA and the Soviet Union, intervened after few days. Towards the end of the year the three countries had left Sinai, but Israel still held forces in Gaza.

1957: Israel leaves Gaza, after USA had promised help to keep the Gulf of Aqaba open for ships calling at Israel.

blocking off shipping routs and ports is a declaration of war... thus Egypt initiated the war.

quote:

1963: Ben Gurion resigns as prime minister and is succeeded by Levi Eshkol.

1967 June 5: Political and security tensions, with increase of Arab troops stationed along the Israeli borders, provokes Israel to a surprise attack on Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.
� June 10: Seizure of battles on the Syrian front, the last battleground of the war that came to be called the Six-Day War. Israel has occupied a large strip of the Syrian Golan Heights, along all of the former border line, East Jerusalem and the West Bank which had been annexed by Jordan almost 20 years earlier, the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip, and the Egyptian territory of Sinai. About 1,5 million Arabs are now under Israeli administration.

1969: Golda Meir becomes new prime minister of Israel.

1972: 11 Israeli athletes are killed by Palestinian guerrilla in the Summer Olympics of Munich, Germany.

1973 October 6: Yom Kippur War, where Egypt and Syria attacks Israel in order to recapture territory occupied in 1967. Arab power had clearly increased since the last war, but after 3 weeks of fighting Israeli restores control.
� Demands from the Israeli military costs so much that the budgets are exceeded to an extent that national economy suffers for years to come.

1974: With the ghost of the Yom Kippur War, and facing the defeat in the parliamentary elections, Golda Meir is not capable of establishing a new government, and resigns.
� Yitzhak Rabin becomes new prime minister.

1977: When not being able to refute accusations on financial irregularities in the private economy, Rabin experiences a defeat in the parliamentary elections.
� Menachim Begin becomes new prime minister. A period of even more deterioration of the economy starts, despite new politics from Begin's conservative government.

� November 19: Visit to Jerusalem by the president of Egypt, Anwar as-Sadat, and the start of the peace process between Israel and Egypt.

1979 March 26: Camp David Agreement signed between Egypt and Israel. Israeli withdrawal from Sinai starts, and goes on for the next 3 years. The second part of the agreement, which dealt with autonomy for the Palestinians on Gaza Strip and the West Bank, is never observed from Israeli side.

ok i skipped a lot but the last one about the camp david agreement regarding the palestinians is a lie. as part of the camp david negotiations israel proposed an autonomy plan to grant palestinians greater control over thier affairs. The Palestinians rejected autonomy as an option, holding out hope for the creation of a palestinian state. so it was not israel who didnt observe it but rather the palestinians who rejected it

quote:

1980: Knesset declares the united and complete Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

1981 June 7: Israel fighters bomb a nuclear reactor in Baghdad, Iraq, claiming that this was being used to produce nuclear weapons to be used against Israel.

I'm actually quite proud of that last one.... image saddam with nukes

Posted by Izzy on Mar-24-2003 21:36:

quote:
Originally posted by tranced_out
Dude calm the fuk down. First of all I apologize if my last post set ur panties on fire, but here are some facts which I hope will clears up some of the questions you asked....

1845: The number of Jews in Palestine is about 12,000.

yes that is the number of jews living there at the time, but do you know the total inhabitants of the area? it wasnt a lot more then 100,000. that means the jews made up abuot 10% of the population which is definetly a considerable amount

quote:

1897: The Zionist movement is started in Basel, Switzerland. Zionism's goal was to establish "for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law".

nothing wrong with that? i wish more movements would adapt similar peaceful movements

quote:

1917 November 2: The Balfour declaration, a letter by the foreign secretary Arthur James Balfour to the English Zionist leader lord Rothschild, gives support to the Zionist case.

here's what it says:
"Her Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done whcih may predjudice the civil and religious rights of exsisting non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in other countries."

quote:

1918-39: The Jews organize their own social and political institutions, which exercise much control over their own population. Hebrew language is fostered, and the Hebrew University is founded in Jerusalem.

1922: The League of Nations adopt the Balfour declaration, and leaves Britain in charge of Palestine, and in assisting the Jews in "reconstituting their national home in that country". Jews represent 11% of the population in Palestine with their 85,000, compared to the 670,000 Palestinians.

1930s: Large influx of Jews, frightened by persecution in Germany. New towns and villages were created, hundreds of kibbutzes founded.

1931: 175,000 Jews and 860,000 Arabs live in Palestine (17%).

nothing wrong so far
worth mentioning that as well as jew immagrating to israel (which was the point of the Balfour declaration, no?) the arab population increased 120% between 1922 and 1947. most of this growth took place in the major cities (haifa, jerusalem and jaffa), not outside farm land.

quote:

1936: Arab revolts against the constant Jewish immigration, but there was no suppression by the British forces until 1939. 385,000 Jews and 980,000 Arabs live in Palestine (28%) by now.

revolts as in violence? the beginning of terrorism? shame it could have not all started by peaceful means. but beside that the squads of 'fedayeen' were organized by Haj Amin el-Husseini to terrorize the jews in 1921

quote:

1937: Great Britian suggests that Palestine should be divided into a Jewish and an Arab state.

really? im curious to know where they said that... the only thing i know that came out of the brits officially in 1937 was the peel commission which basicly said that "the shortfall of land is due less to the amount of land aquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population"

quote:

1939: The British impose a stop on the Jewish immigration. AT this time 450,000 Jews and 1,060,000 Arabs live in Palestine (30%)

wasnt that going agianst what the balfour papers invisioned?

quote:

1945: With the ending of World War II, and the horrors of holocaust were laid open, Zionist demands on self-government increased. From now on, illegal immigration to Palestine was organized.

1947: UN takes control over Palestine.
� November 29: A UN plan for dividing Palestine into two countries, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem as international zone, is presented. This plan was immediately met by violent protest from the Arabs. 590,000 Jews and 1,320,000 Arabs live in Palestine (31%).

1948 May 14: The new Jewish state, State of Israel, is proclaimed by the Jewish Provisional State Council. Chaim Weizmann becomes president, and the Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion the new prime minister. The secret Jewish army, Haganah, is declared as the new army of Israel.
� May 15: Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq join the Arab guerillas in fight against the Jews.

1948-51: Around 700,000 Jews immigrate to Israel.

good so far

quote:

1949 February 24: Peace in the Middle East. Egypt declares that the agreement on cease fire, is not an acceptance of the state of Israel. The Israeli territory has increased from the 15,500 km� that the UN-resolution of 1947 gave them, to 20,700 km�. Gaza Strip becomes Egyptian, and the West Bank Jordanian. There had been 800,000 Arabs living in the area that now became Israel, and only 170,000 had been able to stay. The remaining hundreds of thousands, moved into refugee camps in neighboring countries.

i like the fairness in the last sentence. the moved (of their own will) into refugee camps, not forced to move

quote:

1950: Due to the heavy immigration, the Israeli economy faces serious difficulties. Aid is provided by Jewish organizations around the world, and the US government.

1956: Israel attacks Egypt, and is joined by British and French troops. Israel is much motivated by the Egyptian blockade of ships calling at the Israeli port of Eilat. The British and the French are taking revenge after the Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. The three countries had swift victories, but the UN, supported by both USA and the Soviet Union, intervened after few days. Towards the end of the year the three countries had left Sinai, but Israel still held forces in Gaza.

1957: Israel leaves Gaza, after USA had promised help to keep the Gulf of Aqaba open for ships calling at Israel.

blocking off shipping routs and ports is a declaration of war... thus Egypt initiated the war.

quote:

1963: Ben Gurion resigns as prime minister and is succeeded by Levi Eshkol.

1967 June 5: Political and security tensions, with increase of Arab troops stationed along the Israeli borders, provokes Israel to a surprise attack on Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.
� June 10: Seizure of battles on the Syrian front, the last battleground of the war that came to be called the Six-Day War. Israel has occupied a large strip of the Syrian Golan Heights, along all of the former border line, East Jerusalem and the West Bank which had been annexed by Jordan almost 20 years earlier, the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip, and the Egyptian territory of Sinai. About 1,5 million Arabs are now under Israeli administration.

1969: Golda Meir becomes new prime minister of Israel.

1972: 11 Israeli athletes are killed by Palestinian guerrilla in the Summer Olympics of Munich, Germany.

1973 October 6: Yom Kippur War, where Egypt and Syria attacks Israel in order to recapture territory occupied in 1967. Arab power had clearly increased since the last war, but after 3 weeks of fighting Israeli restores control.
� Demands from the Israeli military costs so much that the budgets are exceeded to an extent that national economy suffers for years to come.

1974: With the ghost of the Yom Kippur War, and facing the defeat in the parliamentary elections, Golda Meir is not capable of establishing a new government, and resigns.
� Yitzhak Rabin becomes new prime minister.

1977: When not being able to refute accusations on financial irregularities in the private economy, Rabin experiences a defeat in the parliamentary elections.
� Menachim Begin becomes new prime minister. A period of even more deterioration of the economy starts, despite new politics from Begin's conservative government.

� November 19: Visit to Jerusalem by the president of Egypt, Anwar as-Sadat, and the start of the peace process between Israel and Egypt.

1979 March 26: Camp David Agreement signed between Egypt and Israel. Israeli withdrawal from Sinai starts, and goes on for the next 3 years. The second part of the agreement, which dealt with autonomy for the Palestinians on Gaza Strip and the West Bank, is never observed from Israeli side.

ok i skipped a lot but the last one about the camp david agreement regarding the palestinians is a lie. as part of the camp david negotiations israel proposed an autonomy plan to grant palestinians greater control over thier affairs. The Palestinians rejected autonomy as an option, holding out hope for the creation of a palestinian state. so it was not israel who didnt observe it but rather the palestinians who rejected it

quote:

1980: Knesset declares the united and complete Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

1981 June 7: Israel fighters bomb a nuclear reactor in Baghdad, Iraq, claiming that this was being used to produce nuclear weapons to be used against Israel.

I'm actually quite proud of that last one.... image saddam with nukes

Posted by tranceaholic on Mar-24-2003 21:38:

[quote] blocking off shipping routs and ports is a declaration of war... thus Egypt initiated the war. [\quote]

its egypts own canal..and they have the right to nationalize it..that doesnt mean or should lead to war.

Posted by melech_mike on Mar-24-2003 21:40:

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
I'm actually quite proud of that last one.... image saddam with nukes

As am I! Any Israeli should be proud of the IDF and IAF!

I'm glad your posting again Izzy. Your knowledge helps these forums greatly!

Posted by melech_mike on Mar-24-2003 21:41:

Posted by Izzy on Mar-24-2003 21:59:

quote:
Originally posted by tranceaholic
[quote] blocking off shipping routs and ports is a declaration of war... thus Egypt initiated the war. [\quote]

its egypts own canal..and they have the right to nationalize it..that doesnt mean or should lead to war.

firstly check out my reply at http://tester.tranceaddict.com/foru...21&pagenumber=6

secondly, i was refering to the blockade of the gulf of aqaba to israeli shipping - that is undeniably an act of war.
the red sea is international water (as evident by the many armed and civilian shipcrafts that sail through). by blockading an entire gulf:

egypt successfully disconnected israel's port of eilat. Israel then went to war in order to free/liberate these shipping routes

Posted by oDrori on Mar-24-2003 22:02:

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
yes that is the number of jews living there at the time, but do you know the total inhabitants of the area? it wasnt a lot more then 100,000. that means the jews made up abuot 10% of the population which is definetly a considerable amount

I would also like to point out that that was the only quote where only the Jewish population was mentioned, without saying out of how much... Since you were conviently persistant in stating the percentage of Jews in the other quotes, I suggest you being biased... Or the source you copy-pasted this from.

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
nothing wrong with that?

Actually there is ... The Zionist movement was already in action well in the early 19th century, it was only in 1897 when the first Zionist Congress took place in Bazel... Movements such as BILU, Favours of Zion and The Favour Of Zion were already active during the 5th to 8th decades of that century...

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
revolts as in violence? the beginning of terrorism? shame it could have not all started by peaceful means. but beside that the squads of 'fedayeen' were organized by Haj Amin el-Husseini to terrorize the jews in 1921

The 1920, 1921 and 1929 revolts were all arranged by Arab religous leaders and were solely based on hatred towards the Jews (Notice that these days it more anti-Zionism) and on the religous differences(!).
Cities where Jews and Muslims leaved peacefully for centuries such as the now infamous city of Hebron were torn apart as hundreads of furious mobs murdered families of Jews in these revolts.
They say terror is no way to achieve your goals these days... Some say it wasn't a way in those days either - Well then, how comes each of those revolts led to an official reduction of permitted Jew imigration licenses per-year on the British side?

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
wasnt that going agianst what the balfour papers invisioned?

The Balfour statement is an ingenously written document, it was written as a reply to Haim Wizeman request for aid from the British government in establishing a Jewish state... We've had a short lesson taught to us when analyzing both documents - And you can practically see how each specific request is turned into a much more hazed, less clear agreement on the government's side... Hence stood the option of limitating the Jew imigration, as it leaves the local arabs less places to work at.

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
ok i skipped a lot but the last one about the camp david agreement regarding the palestinians is a lie. as part of the camp david negotiations israel proposed an autonomy plan to grant palestinians greater control over thier affairs. The Palestinians rejected autonomy as an option, holding out hope for the creation of a palestinian state. so it was not israel who didnt observe it but rather the palestinians who rejected it

In addition, prior to the establishment of the British mandate in Israel and the forming of the Israeli Agency (A form of Jewish-Government-Under-British-Rule) , the Arabs were repeatedly allowed and even asked by several of the local British (One of the Israelis translate - �� ) to form their own Arab Agency or many other forms of official organizations, yet they refused always, seeing as that meant willingness to accept the existance of Jews in the land.

Posted by tranceaholic on Mar-24-2003 22:42:

quote:
Originally posted by melech_mike
I'm also happy to see that your back and posting as well!
Perhaps you could start by addressing the questions posed in the opening post of this thread!

Thanks!

will get to them right away my friend mike..its not easy putting a reply in this forum..as soon as i gather all the info i want will post

Posted by bouzo on Mar-25-2003 00:03:

quote:
Originally posted by melech_mike

Israel single-handedly overpowered destroyed the enemy armies and seized land captured in war.

oh YEAH MAN SINGLE-HANDEDLY...really well said

Posted by Sputnik on Mar-25-2003 00:15:

hahahahah stupid zionists keep on posting your shit here nobody has time for your ignorance

Posted by occrider on Mar-25-2003 00:20:

quote:
Originally posted by Sputnik
hahahahah stupid zionists keep on posting your shit here nobody has time for your ignorance

At least they're posting something worthwile reading. Any dimwit can critisize and deny. It takes intelligence to actually debate.

Posted by Sputnik on Mar-25-2003 00:39:

its a waste of time dude
all u do is flame eachother at the end

Posted by Sputnik on Mar-25-2003 00:40:

stop quoting and insulting others

Posted by Dmatrox on Mar-25-2003 00:54:

hey tranced out, what website did you get those dates from? Great post btw.

Posted by occrider on Mar-25-2003 01:24:

quote:
Originally posted by Sputnik
stop quoting and insulting others

I wasn't referring to you specifically, I'm merely saying that rather than insulting THEM and saying that they are wasting their time you can reply to what they specifically said and prove that they are wrong.

Posted by Ian on Mar-25-2003 01:34:

quote:
Originally posted by melech_mike
I'm also happy to see that your back and posting as well!
Perhaps you could start by addressing the questions posed in the opening post of this thread!

Thanks!

I'm quoting this mainly cos my post is aimed at you....

With all due respect, as someone who's not on either side by nationalty or anything, I do sympathise with Israeli people, to a certain extent, When you have palestinians blowing themselves up on busses and killing innocent people, that IS wrong, but the thing is, the way you bring things up, and try to force your will on others will NOT help your cause one bit, People will see you posting BS and any decent points you may have won't be taken like that, It is shit what is happening, between Arabs & Jews, and it's another religious war, like in Ireland and to an extent what drives muslim extremeists to attack the western civilisations. the point is though, the way you put things across won't help one bit, there are 2 sides to every story so let people make their own minds up sometimes, and please, pack in flaming people for their beliefs, cos imo that makes you just as bad as the arab sucide bombers

Posted by melech_mike on Mar-25-2003 02:21:

quote:
Originally posted by ferrycorstenfan
I'm quoting this mainly cos my post is aimed at you....

With all due respect, as someone who's not on either side by nationalty or anything, I do sympathise with Israeli people, to a certain extent, When you have palestinians blowing themselves up on busses and killing innocent people, that IS wrong, but the thing is, the way you bring things up, and try to force your will on others will NOT help your cause one bit, People will see you posting BS and any decent points you may have won't be taken like that, It is shit what is happening, between Arabs & Jews, and it's another religious war, like in Ireland and to an extent what drives muslim extremeists to attack the western civilisations. the point is though, the way you put things across won't help one bit, there are 2 sides to every story so let people make their own minds up sometimes, and please, pack in flaming people for their beliefs, cos imo that makes you just as bad as the arab sucide bombers

I'm not forcing anything on you... you make it sound as if I�m standing over your head, holding a gun. Don�t like what I write setup your account so it ignores my posts - it could be done!

The thing is that I�m very passionate, and proud of Israel. I can list a million reasons for this, but will not bother wasting my time.

You brought up me posting BS; I�d like to know what you found to be "bullshit". Please quote me and respond.

May I ask why I�m the only one you have singled out for flaming.
There are guys in here posting the most ridiculous crap, and say the most ridiculous things, yet you have not posted anything condemning they're actions.

Lastly, and definitely most importantly, you came to compare me to an Arab suicide bomber... words can't even express what would happen to you if you ever gathered the balls to say this to my face. That was the most ignorant, rude, inappropriate comment ever made upon me. I can't explain to you how mindless that was!

Posted by melech_mike on Mar-25-2003 02:29:

quote:
Originally posted by Sputnik
its a waste of time dude
all u do is flame eachother at the end

At least we save the flaming till the end; you have never posted anything, and decided to start of with flaming!

Does the word moron mean anything to you? (don�t worry; I�m not implying anything )

Posted by tranced_out on Mar-25-2003 03:00:

dude this argument will go on forever, what ever i will post, you will qucikly dismiss it. and watever you post i will quickly dismiss that. here is something i found over the internet. now you tell me what is right and what is wrong.

"Events immediately before and during the War of Independence and during the first years of independence remain, so far as those events involved the Arab residents of Palestine, matters of bitter and emotional dispute. Palestinian Arab refugees insist that they were driven out of their homeland by Jewish terrorists and regular Jewish military forces; the government of Israel asserts that the invading Arab forces urged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their houses temporarily to avoid the perils of the war that would end the Jewish intrusion into Arab lands. Forty years after the event, advocates of Arabs or Jews continue to present and believe diametrically opposed descriptions of those events."

Of course you r going to believe the Jewish government, and we're going to believe that this is a lie and that they were driven out of their homelands.

"According to British Mandate Authority population figures in 1947, there were about 1.3 million Arabs in all of Palestine. Between 700,000 and 900,000 of the Arabs lived in the region eventually bounded by the 1949 Armistice line, the so-called Green Line. By the time the fighting stopped, there were only about 170,000 Arabs left in the new State of Israel. By the summer of 1949, about 750,000 Palestinian Arabs were living in squalid refugee camps, set up virtually overnight in territories adjacent to Israel's borders. About 300,000 lived in the Gaza Strip, which was occupied by the Egyptian army. Another 450,000 became unwelcome residents of the West Bank of the Jordan, recently occupied by the Arab Legion of Transjordan."

Tell me something dude. If someone came into your house today and took over the basement and slowly started taking over the whole kitchen and then the bedrooms, and u'r left with a closet to live in. How would u feel? Wat would you do? How would u retaliate?

"The institutions of the new state were designed to facilitate the growth of the Jewish nation, which in many instances entailed a perceived infringement upon Arab rights. Thus, Arab land was confiscated to make way for Jewish immigrants, the Hebrew language and Judaism predominated over Arabic and Islam, foreign economic aid poured into the Jewish economy while Arab agriculture and business received only meager assistance, and Israeli security concerns severely restricted the Arabs' freedom of movement."

I know for a certain that you will start deny these facts. give me some of your facts as well. Tell me that this never happened to the Arabs.

Posted by Izzy on Mar-25-2003 03:43:

quote:
Originally posted by tranced_out
dude this argument will go on forever, what ever i will post, you will qucikly dismiss it. and watever you post i will quickly dismiss that. here is something i found over the internet. now you tell me what is right and what is wrong.

"Events immediately before and during the War of Independence and during the first years of independence remain, so far as those events involved the Arab residents of Palestine, matters of bitter and emotional dispute. Palestinian Arab refugees insist that they were driven out of their homeland by Jewish terrorists and regular Jewish military forces; the government of Israel asserts that the invading Arab forces urged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their houses temporarily to avoid the perils of the war that would end the Jewish intrusion into Arab lands. Forty years after the event, advocates of Arabs or Jews continue to present and believe diametrically opposed descriptions of those events."

Of course you r going to believe the Jewish government, and we're going to believe that this is a lie and that they were driven out of their homelands.

"According to British Mandate Authority population figures in 1947, there were about 1.3 million Arabs in all of Palestine. Between 700,000 and 900,000 of the Arabs lived in the region eventually bounded by the 1949 Armistice line, the so-called Green Line. By the time the fighting stopped, there were only about 170,000 Arabs left in the new State of Israel. By the summer of 1949, about 750,000 Palestinian Arabs were living in squalid refugee camps, set up virtually overnight in territories adjacent to Israel's borders. About 300,000 lived in the Gaza Strip, which was occupied by the Egyptian army. Another 450,000 became unwelcome residents of the West Bank of the Jordan, recently occupied by the Arab Legion of Transjordan."

you're numbers are close to mine (although yours seems to be rounded up ) you say 750,000 became refugees, i say more like 650,000 while a report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure of 472,000 [ Progress Rerport of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine, Submitted by the Secratary General for Transmission to the Members of the UN, General Assembly Official Records: Third session, supplement No.11 (A/648), Paris, 1948. ]

Although much is heard about the plight of Palestinian refugees, little is said about the Jews who feld arab states. Their situation had long been precarious. During the 1947 UN debates, arab leaders threatened them. For example. Egypt's delegate told the General Assembly: "The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries would be jeopardized by partition.

quote:

Tell me something dude. If someone came into your house today and took over the basement and slowly started taking over the whole kitchen and then the bedrooms, and u'r left with a closet to live in. How would u feel? Wat would you do? How would u retaliate?

thats way to simplistic way of looking at it plus its wrong... a more accurate way to look at it is, what if you sold your kitchen and bedroom but all of a sudden there is a deal made to share the bedroom. if you refuse to share the bedroom you have no right to have it back cause you sold it. of course even my example is way to simplistic and doesnt take into account half of what happened.

furthermore Israel's proclomation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

quote:
Israel's proclomation of Independence
In the midst of wanton agression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the developement of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions... We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and thier peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

that doesnt sound to me like the arabs were forced to move, does it?

quote:

"The institutions of the new state were designed to facilitate the growth of the Jewish nation, which in many instances entailed a perceived infringement upon Arab rights. Thus, Arab land was confiscated to make way for Jewish immigrants, the Hebrew language and Judaism predominated over Arabic and Islam, foreign economic aid poured into the Jewish economy while Arab agriculture and business received only meager assistance, and Israeli security concerns severely restricted the Arabs' freedom of movement."

between 1922 and 1947 the arab population increased dramatically where large jewish populations had created new economic opprotunities. in that time span the arab population of Haifa grew 290%, 131% for Jerusalem and 158% for Jaffa. to contrast, the growth in arab towns in that time was more modest: 42% in Nablus, 78% in Jenin and 37% in Bethlehem.

Posted by occrider on Mar-25-2003 03:49:

quote:
Originally posted by tranced_out
Of course you r going to believe the Jewish government, and we're going to believe that this is a lie and that they were driven out of their homelands.

A) Of course you r going to believe the Jewish government
B) we're going to believe that this is a lie and that they were driven out of their homelands.

(A)----------->THE TRUTH<-----------(B)

I don't understand why people find this concept so hard to believe. Both sides simply have good enough evidence to show that neither are completely correct.

Posted by Izzy on Mar-25-2003 04:04:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
A) Of course you r going to believe the Jewish government
B) we're going to believe that this is a lie and that they were driven out of their homelands.

(A)----------->THE TRUTH<-----------(B)

I don't understand why people find this concept so hard to believe. Both sides simply have good enough evidence to show that neither are completely correct.

excuse me for being a bit arrogant but there isnt much evidence showing that the refugees were forced to leave or done so under threats. furthermore i tend to belive a steady, free, open, and accountable government, more so then the word of a group of people, especially ones with a motive behind their gripe. thats why, imho, i think its more like this:

(A)--->THE TRUTH<-------------------(B)

ps. i wouldnt call it a 'jewish' government. although the majority of the parliment is jewish there are non-jews in it. call it the 'israeli' goverenment. just as i wouldnt call the american government a 'christian' government.

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