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-- The Official 2008-2009 NBA/Toronto Raptors Discussion Thread
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With all due respect, selecting the talent at draft that Colangelo has selected isn't exactly Earth-shattering. Sure there's some hidden talent but it's not like other teams didn't have their fair share of good picks over the years. But I'm not going after his drafts but more-so his long-term vision for a team and his trades. To start: Phoenix didn't win anything and if it wasn't for D'Antoni's high-octane style of play that team would've gone nowhere. They were the definition of a highly successful regular season team that never had what it takes to win in the play offs. D'Antoni leaves and they attempt to play actual basketball and all of the sudden the team is all dysfunctional like "oh shit! we actually gotta run plays and play D? WTf!" Next thing you know Nash is angry, bla bla bla.

Anyways, I'm getting side-tracked. The point is that Colangelo seems to be once again going for a 1 dimensional "exciting", regular season team. Not a lot of D; lots of points (at least I hope so cause the only way the Raps will win next season is purely by outscoring their opponents); and still not addressing the biggest issue at hand. Sure, a miracle might happen and Bargnani will average 2 more rebounds or he might develop a post game which we desperately need but as of now our whole starting line up consists of guys whose games are located near the perimeter.

Getting Stack would be alright but it still won't change a thing. We're patching up one hole but opening up another. I wouldn't get my hopes up until either Bosh or Bargnani gets traded. Bosh would definitely net a bigger so I'm leaning towards him (I still want that Golden State deal to happen).

Ps. Not only is Wallace going to the Celts but now Grant Hill is being courted too?? LOL I guess Boston is going for all the wash ups looking for another chance at a ring.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH With all due respect, selecting the talent at draft that Colangelo has selected isn't exactly Earth-shattering. Sure there's some hidden talent but it's not like other teams didn't have their fair share of good picks over the years. But I'm not going after his drafts but more-so his long-term vision for a team and his trades. To start: Phoenix didn't win anything and if it wasn't for D'Antoni's high-octane style of play that team would've gone nowhere. They were the definition of a highly successful regular season team that never had what it takes to win in the play offs. D'Antoni leaves and they attempt to play actual basketball and all of the sudden the team is all dysfunctional like "oh shit! we actually gotta run plays and play D? WTf!" Next thing you know Nash is angry, bla bla bla.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you because defense is an integral part of the game, but just remember, phoenix was close to the finals the one year horry hip-checked nash and a handful of suspensions ensued. Arguably that year any western team that made the finals was a guaranteed champion.

look at who the suns had to get past as well...it's not like today where it's a bit more wide open....they were facing a dynasty in it's prime with one of the greatest players to ever play the game...not exactly a small feat....the team colangelo put together in phoenix was definately one of the better teams of our generation....they played the game differently....they added a lot of excitement to the game....and gave the nba a completely new look for a couple of years.....it's hard to really over-look that kind of stuff....only one team gets to win the championship every year.

Tuesday, July 7, 2009
Agent: Bargnani gets extension
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

Hedo Turkoglu is on the way and it appears that Andrea Bargnani will also soon have his long-term future secured with the Toronto Raptors.

Bargnani's agent, Leon Rose, told ESPN.com on Tuesday night that the Raptors -- who later this week will officially sign Turkoglu away from Orlando -- have reached an agreement in principle on a contract extension for the 7-foot Italian, who was selected No. 1 overall by the Raptors in the 2006 draft.

The deal, according to NBA front-office sources, would span five seasons starting in 2010-11 and earn Bargnani an estimated $50 million.

Rose declined to discuss contract specifics.

Formally signing Bargnani to an extension this month, coupled with Turkoglu's forthcoming arrival, would give the Raptors a firm handle on at least two-thirds of their frontline for the next few years, as they continue to try to convince face of the franchise Chris Bosh to commit his long-term future to the team.

Bosh is also eligible for a contract extension later this month but has said he is intent on playing out next season and waiting until the highly anticipated summer of 2010 to decide whether to stay in Canada or relocate.

Senior writer Marc Stein covers the NBA for ESPN.com.

so, Bargnani worth 10mil per year?

bah I dunno. that boy better find consistency soon for his contract to be worth it

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan so, Bargnani worth 10mil per year?

I like bargs, but fuck

$10mil/yr for a 7 footer is a relative bargain by NBA standards. Guys like Marcin Gortat are getting $6mil a year...Sam Dalembert gets $10mil a year...Mehmet Okur is up around there as well. Big men for some reason always make more.

That's decent money. And it could end up being the bargain of the century if Bargs develops any more aspects to this game (eg. inside game, defence, passing, etc).

I guess this sets the precedent for Bosh being shipped out. Time to bring in a real centre that can rebound and run the floor.

Ps. Going back to that Suns discussion: yea they almost won, but didn't. Nothing is ever guaranteed. They could've just as easily still lost that series. And one of the best teams of our generation?? That's pushing it. They wouldn't even crack the top 10 of the past 20+ years. Maaaybe the past decade.

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot $10mil/yr for a 7 footer is a relative bargain by NBA standards. Guys like Marcin Gortat are getting $6mil a year...Sam Dalembert gets $10mil a year...Mehmet Okur is up around there as well. Big men for some reason always make more.

seems a pretty big risk for a player at his make or break year and haven't yet to produce any sort of consistency or mental toughness to make it in NBA

granted, Bargnani has a lot of upside, but to sit on a 5 yr contract at 10 mil per is a bit of risky move IMO

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH That's decent money. And it could end up being the bargain of the century if Bargs develops any more aspects to this game (eg. inside game, defence, passing, etc). I guess this sets the precedent for Bosh being shipped out. Time to bring in a real centre that can rebound and run the floor.

I'd kill for the Raps to have two decent and consistent rebounders on the team

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan seems a pretty big risk for a player at his make or break year and haven't yet to produce any sort of consistency or mental toughness to make it in NBA granted, Bargnani has a lot of upside, but to sit on a 5 yr contract at 10 mil per is a bit of risky move IMO

I think the ideal number for Bargnani as of right now is 8 million. Which is around what he'll net this year since contracts always increase from year to year. You're right that he still needs to develop some more mental toughness. To his credit, he did get to the line at will whenever he wanted last year, and he used it well (eg. shot not falling? attack and pick up fouls). I really think the combination of Sam Mitchell and him being in a totally new environment/ESL was tough on him the first 2 years.

Or maybe he just sucks. Time will tell.

I AM coining the term "Barg(ain)ani" though.

yeah, I think there are positives. as mentioned, this could prove to be a bargain scenario if Bargnani continues to improve (and he had a pretty fine 2nd half last year).

it's stability. that could appeal to Bosh (or to his replacement) and no matter what he does next year, the starting lineup remains pretty much intact.

Bargnani and Turkoglu are here for 5. Calderon has 4 years left and that's how long the Raps could definitely keep DeRozan (if he pans out).


DeRozan may or may not pan out though...they still need a legit SG, a backup SF and another PG...and it remains to be seen if the new-look team will even play well together.

no predictions from this corner just yet...

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT Parker, Manu, Jefferson, Duncan and McDyess > all (including the new look Lakers)

Fixed. And now I think I have to agree. The Spurs have been under the radar with their signings and I think they might be the team to beat next year. Adding Jefferson was a big move and now adding a big, mean body down low to work with Duncan just might put them over the top. Only chance the Lakers have is Bynum playing for 75+ games next season so he can solidify his game.

I love how the "Elite" are getting even more stacked and everyone else is left in the dust.

quote:

Wednesday, July 8, 2009 Sources: Teams agree to Marion deal By Chad Ford and Marc Stein ESPN.com The Toronto Raptors and Dallas Mavericks agreed in principle Wednesday night to a complicated three team sign-and-trade including the Memphis Grizzlies that will land Shawn Marion in Dallas, two sources close to the process told ESPN.com. The teams have scheduled a trade call for Thursday. While all of the details have yet to emerge, the principles are set. Marion will be heading to Dallas after signing a five-year, $39 million deal according to sources. Several other players including the Raptors' Kris Humphries and Quincy Douby, the Mavericks' Jerry Stackhouse, Devean George and Antoine Wright and the Grizzlies' Greg Buckner are part of the trade according to sources. The Grizzlies will be getting Stackhouse, Douby and cash, sources said. George and Wright will end up in Toronto, according to the same sources. Humphries and Buckner are on their way to Dallas. Although Raptors president Bryan Colangelo drafted Marion in Phoenix in 1999 and wants to help the former All-Star if he can, sources say Toronto is only interested in taking back draft considerations and/or cash to avoid getting in the way of its Hedo Turkoglu signing. In the midst of negotiations with Marion on a four-year contract believed to be worth $36 million late last week, Toronto managed to change Turkoglu's mind at the 11th hour and convince its No. 1 free-agent target to come to Canada for a five-year deal in excess of $50 million instead of signing with the Portland Trail Blazers. Including Humphries, Wright and George in the deal gave the Raptors the financial incentive to do the sign and trade. Both George and Wright are in the last year of their contracts. Humphries has two years left on his current deal. In addition, the Raptors are in need of a two guard with the departure of Anthony Parker to the Cleveland Cavaliers. Adding Wright to the mix gives them a credible starter until rookie DeMar DeRozan is ready to contribute. Dallas is hoping that the combination of Marion and Orlando restricted free agent Marcin Gortat -- along with the re-signing of Jason Kidd -- would greatly improve the depth and flexibility possessed by a team that won 50 games last season and advanced to the second round of the playoffs before losing to Denver. Mavs owner Mark Cuban has said for months that he was prepared to be as aggressive as possible this summer as opposed to waiting for the free-agent bonanza of 2010, when Dallas was initially expected to have substantial cap space. Orlando retains the right to match any offer sheet to Gortat but the Magic are widely expected not to match. Sources say that the Mavericks, meanwhile, are determined to keep Josh Howard even if a trade for Marion can be worked out, with Howard entering the final year of his contract. One potential drawback for Dallas is the fact that Marion would be yet another key member of their core over the age of 30, joining Nowitzki (31), Kidd (36), Jason Terry (31) and Howard (who turns 30 next April). Sources say the Mavericks' plan is to play Marion at the three and move Howard to the two. The Mavs will also sport other looks with Howard at the three, Marion at the four and Nowitzki at the five. Marion earned $17.8 million last season and was traded for the second straight February when Miami sent him to Toronto in a swap for Jermaine O'Neal. He went from Phoenix to Miami one year earlier in the Shaquille O'Neal trade. The Raptors were intent on re-signing Marion if they couldn't win the Turkoglu sweepstakes, seeing late-season signs of promise in Marion's collaboration alongside Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani. Sources say that the Cavaliers, despite their recent pursuits of Trevor Ariza and Ron Artest and a well-chronicled need for a combo forward, were not making a hard push for Marion. Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider. Marc Stein is a senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. Information from ESPN's Ric Bucher was used in this report.

Hump and Quincy Douby are out for Antoine Wright and Deavan George...looks like AP is on his way to Cleveland as well.

Shit, we're are going to have such a different looking team next year. If I remember correctly...we still retain a mid-level exception and that's the main reason why we did a sign and trade with Marion? If Marion would have signed as a FA we would have lost that? Am I correct here?

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH if Bargs develops any more aspects to this game (eg.defence etc).

Bargs = defence


lololol

as Doug Smith pointed out, Bargnani had 31 blocks in his last 17 games of the season.

gotta give the guy a little credit...

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT as Doug Smith pointed out, Bargnani had 31 blocks in his last 17 games of the season. gotta give the guy a little credit...

actually mark ur right

bargs and danny granger are statistical anomalies, they both shoot 3PTs and block shots... they are freaks of nature

but i doubt there are ppl who fear bargs like some ppl do with artest, dwight or bowen

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot Hump and Quincy Douby are out for Antoine Wright and Deavan George...looks like AP is on his way to Cleveland as well. Shit, we're are going to have such a different looking team next year. If I remember correctly...we still retain a mid-level exception and that's the main reason why we did a sign and trade with Marion? If Marion would have signed as a FA we would have lost that? Am I correct here?

I think the Raps have the mid-level exception regardless. My guess is they go after a PG now with some/all of it?

The issue was losing Marion for nothing and needing to work under the cap to fill the holes on the bench.

this is my understanding of how this sign and trade would benefit everyone (after spending WAY too much time reading about the nuances of the CBA, which is just fucked):

Raps
- don't lose Marion for nothing. they get George and Wright.
- gain some cap room now and next year. Humphries has this year + a player option @ 3.2 mil each year (and he would have exercised that option, most likely). that's now gone. so is Douby's 855k this year. that allowed them to take George and Wright (since being at the cap once Turkoglu signs wouldn't let them sign anyone to fill the bench), but their contracts are up after this year, so that's cap room for next year.

Dallas:
- didn't have the cap room sign Marion as an unrestricted a free agent, plus they would risk losing him to another team.
- George and Wright's contracts (1.6 and 2.1 mil) are gone as is Stackhouse's 7 (though only 2 was guaranteed, i.e. he could be bought out). So they shed 11 mil, which lets them take on the contracts of Marion, Humphries and (unfortunately) Buckner. Buckner's shit contract was part of the price of getting this done for Dallas.

Grizzlies:
- ditch Buckner's bad contract which is 4 mil this year, with a player option for 4.27 next year that he would surely have exercised.
- if they get "Stackhouse, Douby and cash"...Douby only makes 855k in this last year of his contract. Stackhouse, as mentioned, makes 7+mil this year, but only 2 mil is guaranteed. So they can keep him or buy him out for 2 mil., but free up 7 mil in cap room (I think that's how that works). either way, he's off the books by next year.
- they have the most cap room in the league right right now and will be positioned *really* well to lure in big names this year and/or especially next year (and resign there own guys at some point)

Marion:
- gets the contract he wants, because no team who actually wants him has the cap room to give him 8 mil/year. the sign-and-trade also requires a contract of at least 3 yrs. He was otherwise facing settling for the mid-level exception somewhere and might have only got that for a year or two. that would have been a nasty hit to the wallet (and his ego).

If anyone sees holes...please, point them out.

The rules and exceptions under the CBA are just ridiculous. I think you need a team of lawyers and accountants to even begin to *really* understand it, haha.

edit: so now the talk is that Turkoglu will also be done under a sign-and-trade, with Orlando getting a trade exception in the deal. I don't get how this all has the Raptors UNDER the cap, as they now apparently have room to sign another player? unless that's not right and they are referring to the mid-level exception?

so maybe Delfino and Rasho coming back...

quote:

Originally posted by Porky actually mark ur right bargs and danny granger are statistical anomalies, they both shoot 3PTs and block shots... they are freaks of nature but i doubt there are ppl who fear bargs like some ppl do with artest, dwight or bowen

don't forget Rasheeeeeed! another fantasy gem in the 1-1-1 club of threes-blocks-steals. Very rare. Marion was in the group for quite a few years too.

but yeah...I don't think Bargs is intimidating anyone with his D, lol.

it's exciting to see the team coming together, even if there remain significant holes. The offense should be quite a show.

Mark my words: Bargs will win defensive player of the year for next season lololol

Anywho; although he can block shots he really won't be dominating the paint the way a centre should to keep those pesky 2-guards from waltzing in and dunking. That's one thing I loved about JO. He was a beast under the basket. Bargnani should've been taking notes last season.

And am I the only one that DOES NOT want to see Delfino back on the Raptors? The guy freaking sucks for crying out loud. Another pure volume shooter without much else to offer. Last thing we need on this team.

doug smith seems to think they're gunna bring Rasho back.

I say they go all out and use 3.5-4.0mil on Klieza with the rest going to a back up pg and maybe a min. salary player or two.

Klieza and Reggie Evans coming off the bench would no doubt give us some of the grit we've been lacking these last couple of years.

I've seen articles stating that Cleveland is going after Kleiza. I doubt he'd pick T.O over The Lebron Show, but anything is possible I guess.

Update:
bye bye Nate.

quote:

The Orlando Magic have acquired a trade exception and cash considerations from the Toronto Raptors, and cash considerations from the Dallas Mavericks as part of a four-team trade, General Manager Otis Smith announced today. As part of a sign-and-trade deal, forward Hedo Turkoglu was traded to Toronto. �This move allows us some potential flexibility in the future,� said Smith. �Hedo was a big part of our success and did a lot for our organization during his five seasons here. We wish him and his family nothing but the best.� Also included as parts of the deal - Toronto sends Shawn Marion, Kris Humphries, Nathan Jawai and cash considerations to Dallas, while also sending a future second round draft pick to Memphis ; Memphis sends Greg Buckner to Dallas; Dallas sends Jerry Stackhouse and cash considerations to Memphis, while also sending Devean George and Antoine Wright to Toronto.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH I've seen articles stating that Cleveland is going after Kleiza. I doubt he'd pick T.O over The Lebron Show, but anything is possible I guess.

Wouldn't the signing of AP render that need met?

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot Wouldn't the signing of AP render that need met?

Well Parker is an SG and Kleiza is an SF/PF so I doubt it. Unless they're just looking for some reliable 3 point shooting (and not chokers like West and Williams).

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