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Quoting diginut:

Ahaha I missed you. Knew you'd turn up in here eventually!

But if you and jad would care to reread some of what I wrote earlier (as if I don't know that you won't), I never denied that the land (or part of it anyway) was called Palestine and that there were an indigenous people there. I simply said that there was no Palestinian state, which is the absolute truth. Whomever may have lived there and whatever they may have done, it was owned by the British and before that various other Arab powers. There was no Palestinian government, and the land was not recognized by anyone - Jew, Muslim, Christian, or otherwise - as being a sovereign nation.

Do you deny this to be true?

Further to that I also pointed out that many of the Palestinians living on that land today are not indigenous to the region, that they were exiled or migrated from Jordan or Lebanon or one of the other nearby lands, or are the descendants of those families. Do you also deny this to be true?

As for Palestinians being known beforehand as Philistines, there is no evidence to back up that claim. Yes, the words sound similar, but Nigerian and Nigerien also sound similar (identical, in fact) yet refer to separate entities. Or take Guianese / Guyanese or Ghanaian / Guinean. There's no etymological explanation for how or why the spelling and pronunciation could have changed from Philistine to Palestinian, and so the only rational conclusion one can draw is that they came from different sources.

--

Yes, Palestine was not a 'sovereign nation' at that time, and neither were any other countries in the Middle East before colonialism and occupation divided them with borders. There were different regions, and sub-regions e.g. Palestine was part of Greater Syria, or the Levante. Back then it was very common for Christians, Muslims, and Jews to live among each other. In fact my grandfather's neighbour was Jewish. He referred to himself as a Palestinian Jew. In fact, many of the Jews who lived there before the occupation, among with other Jews oppose the occupation itself, yet alone the IDF's invasion of Gaza.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHAR...st_zionism.html
www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
www.nkusa.org/

Thank you for pointing out the fact that some Palestinians are descendants of different ethnic backgrounds, due to migration. These people migrating caused problems that cannot even be compared to the mass immigration of mainly European, Middle Eastern, and North American Jews, at the expense of Palestinian land and lives - Zionism. The natives have much stronger ethnical ties to the land than the Jewish immigrants do.

I don't see how yout Philistine argument is even relevant to the discussion? Back to the main topic, here's some recent news. Read critically: http://www.reuters.com/article/worl...E5053R720090107

Is it me or is this thread just going around in circles?

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie Is it me or is this thread just going around in circles?

I already mentioned this tree times.

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie Is it me or is this thread just going around in circles?

quote:

Originally posted by HouseGuru You dip shits must have pea sized brains. I have never seen such stuborn stupid fucks in my life. Worse then fukn mules. All your arguments and counter arugments are meanless. This bullshit has been going on for years, The biggest problems is not who's on first whats on second. No one will ever win this argument don't you fucktards get it. Both sides are at fault and the time to settle this conflict is over. No more killing will settle this nor will your bickering about who started this bullshit. Your like little fuckn kids he started it no he did. GROW THE FUCK UP YOU DIP SHITs. Its only two bad someone doesn't grab the leaders of both sides and beats the living fuckn shit out of them till they get it through their thick fuckn skulls. Then to skin them alive for being such douche bags. So before you present another argument stop being so fuckn stupid. The time for conflict resolution is over. The time for smackin them upside the head is now. Personally they both deserve what they get. Teaching hatred to young children forever corrupting the most innocent of souls. It disgust me to see young children on tv waving their fists and chanting in the same manor as Hitler. FUCKn revolting!!! THIS GOES FOR BOTH SIDES. The only way this will end is if the leaders of both groups are captured and tried for crimes against humantiy. I would also have the UN take over the whole region putting those that incite the violence to death. Don't agree big fuckn whoop. Severe measures for severe conflict. and now for you Cyrus you dumb ass fuck!!! Yeah You heard me. It is insulting personally that you use the image of someone so noble as Ernesto "Che" Guevara for your profile picture. He would never support your argument as he was a firm believer that relgion was a poison and had no place in society. That was not what he was about. It disgusts me that palestinians use his image to support their cause. HE WOULD NEVER SUPPORT EITHER SIDE. What he tried to instill was the value of people and life over monetary driven societies. To teach and educate the young to live a life of peace. In the words of "CHE" FUCK Capitalism. Which is what he did to america. Wake the fuck up. Onward to victory always. (Ernesto "El Che" Guevara)

youre retarded...

im an atheist.. and think that religion is a pathetic excuse for these zionists to go into Palestine and make a nation for themselves becuase their god tells them..

I dont think you were really reading my posts properly

i sobbed this morning when i saw these pictures...i truly hope that there is a cease fire soon...these children..any children for that matter do not deserve this...

you can hate muslims or jews...but, children transcend everything..they are innocent....if anything, our world should not tolerate the murder of innocent children...in any country..and this is why nations like the US have to be aggressive about garnering a cease fire...

please don't look at the images if you can't handle the reality...

http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?ref=...01961769&ref=nf


20 years from now..these kinds of images are going to be the historical context of someones argument..hopefully some type of peace will be in place by then....


and to be honest..i am disgusted with all of the governments of this world...all of them..especially the governments of the two countries I am a citizen of...Turkey and Canada....this is not the first time the world has stood idly stood by as innocent children were being slaughtered..it's sickening to me...

quote:

Originally posted by UmmiE Ok lets agree with what you have said so far.......Keeping in mind that the litter brother did all that.....Now here is my question :- Based on your surroundings and whatever you have seen so far since your are currently in Israel....Do you think Israel never did anything to provoke such acts in the past from the little brother? Like these people in (gaza,palestine) side are the ones always starting it ?

This, again, is not something I wanted to go into (and I mentioned it in my post). As many people have noticed, that sort of discussion only ends up going in circles, and that's not something I'm fond of doing. I don't care who started what when, I care that things don't remain one-sided throughout - because only then will things begin to change.

Many people who are posting here (though far from all) have *VERY* extreme opinions and will denounce anything that isn't in full support of their view. To align yourself with that sort of mindset is disturbingly wrong. It makes things like THIS seem ok. I should note (without going on too much of a tangent) that what's going on in that story is not terribly distant from the pre-Enlightenment period in Europe where Jews were first banned from academia (unless baptised), then slaughtered, and not terribly distant from pre-war Germany, in which Jews were first banned from academia (regardless of baptism), then slaughtered. It's the same nonsense under the cover of 'anti-Zionism', and it's very much the same feeling I get when I read a lot of these posts. Whether I'm right or wrong, I hope not to find out.

Many will argue "It's not anti-Jew, it's anti-Zionist". The only problem is, this is a completely misconstrued definition of what Zionism is. The fact that people drag religion into modern-day Zionism to begin with is *INCORRECT*. To think that Israel is a totally religious community is garbage, as the large majority of Israelies only keep certain amounts of tradition and scrap the actual religion - and it's been that way from the beginning of the "Zionistic" movement.

To address your question on what I've experienced here: I'm a bit further north of the 'action' at the moment. What I do know, is that even where I am there have been several damaging riots (which are not widely reported in International television) within the Old City of Jerusalem among other regions within the country. Furthermore, many friends of mine are deeply effected by what's going on right now and have been effected for months (before any public war broke out). The rockets on Sderot (a city of southern Israel), as tatgirl mentioned, went on for months before any of this "war" stuff that's come up in the last few weeks. Outside of that, friends in Ashkelon, Be'er Sheva, and Ashdod are running into their bomb shelters regularly as their cities are consistently placed in code red standings due to incoming missiles. It's not pretty.

As many people will jump to say "WELL LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE - LOOK WE HAVE VIDEOS!", I will restate that I am *NOT* trying to say things are one-sided, nor to paint a horrid picture which will scare you out of your pants - I am simply restating what I experience and what others experience here and I *DO* recognize that the same thing is happening on the other side now that Israel decided to take action. I do think that before anyone comments on any individual article they should take caution - regardless of the side - to check several other sources and to wait a short while before bursting out in rage.

It's easy to tell people to get educated, it's more of a nuisance to actually do it (and I stand as a victim and perpetrator of both, admittedly).

I hope you'll see, at the very least, that this is far from me spreading propaganda. I'm just trying to tone down some peoples' extreme tones before they say or do something stupid (if they haven't already).

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Z umm, nope, genocide or ethnic cleansing is reserved for the balkans

oooooh. lol. nice.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade This, again, is not something I wanted to go into (and I mentioned it in my post). As many people have noticed, that sort of discussion only ends up going in circles, and that's not something I'm fond of doing. I don't care who started what when, I care that things don't remain one-sided throughout - because only then will things begin to change. Many people who are posting here (though far from all) have *VERY* extreme opinions and will denounce anything that isn't in full support of their view. To align yourself with that sort of mindset is disturbingly wrong. It makes things like THIS seem ok. I should note (without going on too much of a tangent) that what's going on in that story is not terribly distant from the pre-Enlightenment period in Europe where Jews were first banned from academia (unless baptised), then slaughtered, and not terribly distant from pre-war Germany, in which Jews were first banned from academia (regardless of baptism), then slaughtered. It's the same nonsense under the cover of 'anti-Zionism', and it's very much the same feeling I get when I read a lot of these posts. Whether I'm right or wrong, I hope not to find out. Many will argue "It's not anti-Jew, it's anti-Zionist". The only problem is, this is a completely misconstrued definition of what Zionism is. The fact that people drag religion into modern-day Zionism to begin with is *INCORRECT*. To think that Israel is a totally religious community is garbage, as the large majority of Israelies only keep certain amounts of tradition and scrap the actual religion - and it's been that way from the beginning of the "Zionistic" movement. To address your question on what I've experienced here: I'm a bit further north of the 'action' at the moment. What I do know, is that even where I am there have been several damaging riots (which are not widely reported in International television) within the Old City of Jerusalem among other regions within the country. Furthermore, many friends of mine are deeply effected by what's going on right now and have been effected for months (before any public war broke out). The rockets on Sderot (a city of southern Israel), as tatgirl mentioned, went on for months before any of this "war" stuff that's come up in the last few weeks. Outside of that, friends in Ashkelon, Be'er Sheva, and Ashdod are running into their bomb shelters regularly as their cities are consistently placed in code red standings due to incoming missiles. It's not pretty. As many people will jump to say "WELL LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE - LOOK WE HAVE VIDEOS!", I will restate that I am *NOT* trying to say things are one-sided, nor to paint a horrid picture which will scare you out of your pants - I am simply restating what I experience and what others experience here and I *DO* recognize that the same thing is happening on the other side now that Israel decided to take action. I do think that before anyone comments on any individual article they should take caution - regardless of the side - to check several other sources and to wait a short while before bursting out in rage. It's easy to tell people to get educated, it's more of a nuisance to actually do it (and I stand as a victim and perpetrator of both, admittedly). I hope you'll see, at the very least, that this is far from me spreading propaganda. I'm just trying to tone down some peoples' extreme tones before they say or do something stupid (if they haven't already).

your view is very one sided...but you say it's not....i think any logical person knows that mistakes have been made on both sides....but to compare the current actions to, your friends having to run into bomb shelters, is just an attempt to water down the horror that is being place on the people of Gaza..it's not the same thing! not to say that what has happened to the Jewish people is right..i can understand how scary it must be to hear those sirens and to have to seek shelter...i totally get it..

your rationalizations are just an attempt to take the focus off of the issue at hand...

yes, the people of israel have to also live in fear...but they are not being slaughtered.....they are not suffering as the people of Gaza are..they have basic liberties....they have basic human rights...they have access to medical care..they have the ability to FLEE...DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT LETTING THE PEOPLE LEAVE!

israel has been condemned by the UN so many times for their human rights violations..i want someone to rationalize that and tell me why these condemnations are not warranted...

this is a conflict with two sides..yes..both sides have made mistakes..but seriously, stop justifying what is going in Gaza currently...where is your social consciousness..??s

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear your view is very one sided...but you say it's not....i think any logical person knows that mistakes have been made on both sides....but to compare the current actions to, your friends having to run into bomb shelters, is just an attempt to water down the horror that is being place on the people of Gaza..it's not the same thing! not to say that what has happened to the Jewish people is right..i can understand how scary it must be to hear those sirens and to have to seek shelter...i totally get it.. your rationalizations are just an attempt to take the focus off of the issue at hand... yes, the people of israel have to also live in fear...but they are not being slaughtered.....they are not suffering as the people of Gaza are..they have basic liberties....they have basic human rights...they have access to medical care..they have the ability to FLEE...DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT LETTING THE PEOPLE LEAVE! israel has been condemned by the UN so many times for their human rights violations..i want someone to rationalize that and tell me why these condemnations are not warranted... this is a conflict with two sides..yes..both sides have made mistakes..but seriously, stop justifying what is going in Gaza currently...where is your social consciousness..??s

Instead of reading with the intention of responding, read with the intention of understanding what I'm saying. Then we'll talk.

As for medical care, I believe I posted an article early in this thread showing one of many reactions to the offer of medical care in Gaza.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade Instead of reading with the intention of responding, read with the intention of understanding what I'm saying. Then we'll talk. As for medical care, I believe I posted an article early in this thread showing one of many reactions to the offer of medical care in Gaza.

i understood everything you said...and i feel that your words are just trying to water down the issue at hand....but let's just agree to disagree....

while i'm more concerned about the death of innocent humans and have stated many times that i do understand the other side..that mistakes have been made on both sides..it seems, you are concerned with labeling people as extreme because they are angry..we should all be angry....this type of shit shouldn't happen to any population...

unlike you, i am not willing to take the focus off of what is happening today and now.....

have a great day..

this is a QUOTE from David Ben-Gurion(Hebrew: דָּוִד בֶּן גּוּרִיּוֹן, October 16, 1886 � December 1, 1973) former Israeli prime minister and a fervent ZIONIST.

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there."

enough said...

quote:

Originally posted by UmmiE I think it will end up being another iraq or afghanistan

Those regions have been stabilizing to a large degree over the past year or two, so this would be a good thing.

Not that I am advocating for Israel to conquer the whole region; if they're able to eliminate Hamas or at least push them out to the fringe, then the right thing to do would be to return as much territory as they can practically return to the new government.

quote:

Originally posted by geroin i dont think there is a resolution to this at this time.

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced exactly....let them battle it out until they are ready for peace....unfortunately, civilians will die....its a part of war.

Probably the sanest points in this thread. Strangely enough, a lot of Palestinians (that is, people actually from the Palestinian Territories) agree with this.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam I would arrange for a squad of men to infiltrate the school and take out the terrorists with as little civilian casualties as possible.

Great in theory, but that's exactly how guerrilla wars are lost in practice. It costs Hamas peanuts to mount these attacks, but the cost to Israel for a SWAT-style operation would be enormous.

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear children transcend everything..they are innocent....

Puh-leeze. It's precisely this sentiment that's used to justify some of the worst atrocities.

Children are not as innocent as you think. Not teenagers, anyway. We aren't talking about 5-year-olds here.

quote:

Originally posted by DarV this is a QUOTE from David Ben-Gurion(Hebrew: דָּוִד בֶּן גּוּרִיּוֹן, October 16, 1886 � December 1, 1973) former Israeli prime minister and a fervent ZIONIST. "I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there." enough said...

Is there a reason you chose not to properly finish the quote with, "Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out"?

Regardless - I don't know what you're trying to say with this.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Great in theory, but that's exactly how guerrilla wars are lost in practice. It costs Hamas peanuts to mount these attacks, but the cost to Israel for a SWAT-style operation would be enormous.

so how much is child's life then?

quote:

Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty so how much is child's life then?

You tell me.

It's far from unusual for them to use children as weapons and shields - and further, as media tools.

Why didn't this outcry exist when little kids were sent to explode in Israeli cities?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Those regions have been stabilizing to a large degree over the past year or two, so this would be a good thing. Not that I am advocating for Israel to conquer the whole region; if they're able to eliminate Hamas or at least push them out to the fringe, then the right thing to do would be to return as much territory as they can practically return to the new government.

I will have to disagree because of the fact that....Just because the U.S says its stabalizing doesnt actually mean it is.......they have brought down the place 50 years back if not to stone age......People hate them over there and will do anything to get rid of them.Hamid karzai is puppet of the U.S, people in there know of that and would take him out anytime they get a chance.

Now for the second part of your comment :-

Even if the new govt stands up in there do you think these hardcore militants or hamas will be done...No because its not like a traditional army its a group of people fighting for a cause honestly I wish they both settle this .....but its easier said then done....In reality these people who have lost all their loved ones will keep coming back, revenge is a very bad thing.......I honestly believe this killing eachother will continue even if there was an agreement reached....Do I agree with "NO" .....Hate created due to these attacks on both sides even right now is good enough for them to be fighting for the next 50 yrs.......Which is the actual sad part for both the civilians on both side.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade Why didn't this outcry exist when little kids were sent to explode in Israeli cities?

Sadly, Shahid is highly respected no matter what the age.

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie Sadly, Shahid is highly respected no matter what the age.

Wrong.......Just because a few bad people do something that is wrong you cannot blame the whole country or the religion for it.......Its not something that is preached by the actual religion followers(avg joe the plummer muslims) but sadly is only done by the bad apples.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade You tell me. It's far from unusual for them to use children as weapons and shields - and further, as media tools. Why didn't this outcry exist when little kids were sent to explode in Israeli cities?

this is the first time i hear about this and...whoah. that is fucked up, that's bad. this sheds new light on many things, at least for me.

but still, thats no excuse for what happened the other day. not taking any sides, im just saying.

quote:

Originally posted by UmmiE Wrong.......Just because a few bad people do something that is wrong you cannot blame the whole country or the religion for it.......Its not something that is preached by the actual religion followers(avg joe the plummer muslims) but sadly is only done by the bad apples.

Not really... Correct I should have gone into more detail, Shahid is respected amonst the extremists. I never said anything about the whole country or all of the religion, let's not blow what I said up more than what it is. I love Joe the Plummer Muslims, and you know it. I am as Pro-Palestinian as much as I am Pro-Iraeli. I'm Anti-Extremist, and I have clearly stated this countless of times. Shahid (martyrdom) is highly respected amongst the extremists, and sadly Gaza (not all of Palestine) is governed by an extremist group. Therefore Hamas is creating a very bad image for all Joe the Plumber Palestinians.

UN halts Gaza aid shipments after Israeli attacks on its staff

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/...el_palestinians

"We've been co-ordinating with them (Israeli forces) and yet our staff continue to be hit and killed."


Well isn't that just great!

looks like lebanon is jumping in

quote:

Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty looks like lebanon is jumping in

let's hope the U.S jumps and in and tells their friend to stop their shit before this gets really bad.....

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear let's hope the U.S jumps and in and tells their friend to stop their shit before this gets really bad.....

Its like telling your own shadow not to follow you LOL

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