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-- Massive Quake Hits Japan!
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Originally posted by narcism

Holy shit...

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Originally posted by narcism

Aww

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Originally posted by Theresa Earthquakes cause tsunamis. They are in a very volatile region, living on a fault line, on the water. While I get what someone else said that it was more efficient, it's still a massive risk to take considering how likely they are to experience catastrophes like this one. I think using a safer, more expensive or less efficient source is better. All you need is one disaster to fuck up the lives of every single person around the plant... not worth the risk in my opinion.

Catastrophes like this one? You mean the single largest earthquake in that region in recorded history and 4th largest globally? Yeah, things like that happen all the time there.

If the plant had better protected backup power generators we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. A design flaw insofar as you cant plan for every possible and impossible scenario.

A safer, less efficient and more expensive source you say? Well lets break it down. Nuclear power, despite the radioactive waste it produces is much much cleaner than any fossil fuel burning plant. Not to mention the enormous cost it would take to import said fuels since as ive said, japan doesnt really have enough resources to switch away from nuclear power. If youre looking for a good way to bankrupt the country, that would be it. Hydropower? Well for starters its effect on the environment unlike nuclear power isnt theoretical, its immediate and severe, and if hit by a 9.0 magnitude quake theres a very real danger that the damn dam could brake. Imagine the devastation if for say the Hoover damn would break. Speaking of Hoover dam, its a damn bid dam with an installed capacity of just over 2000MW. Most hydro plants have a significantly smaller output. The Fukushima plant alone had an installed capacity of over 4500MW, way over twice of that huge hydroplant. Wind and solar share the same problem. Nowhere near the capacity. The output of the current largest wind plant is about 700MW (if theres enough wind...which there usually isnt)and for solar about half that. A fraction of what Fukushima plant produced. And on the issue of sustainability, if the backup generator would have remained intact the Fukushima plant would probably be ready to come back online by monday, in contrast a wind/solar plant that gets hit by a tsunami is gone forever. Not a nice prospect taking into account the startup costs.

So, which of these do you propose to replace the 34,5% of power provided by the nuclear plants in japan?

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Originally posted by Theresa Also, it really does leave the country vulnerable. In a case of terrorism or war, all you gotta do is blow up a nuclear plant and you win. Again... risks outweigh the benefits from the way I see it.

No it doesnt. Let me put this as clearly as i can. You cannot simply blow up a nuclear power plant. You can not make a power plant go nuclear. It was not designed to do that and nothing any terrorists does can change that. The containment dome is designed to contain the worst case scenario, a full scale nuclear meltdown, a few bombs dropped from a plane, or even a plane crashing into it would barely put a scratch on it. You would need specially designed bunker busters to puncture that and why would you want to do that anyway? In a war, why blow up a single powerplant and potentially endanger the lives of your own men, when even a stray bomb around one of the power distribution centers has the same affect without the devastation and the huge rebuilding costs.

Chernobyl, despite being used as a scare word just about everywhere did not go nuclear, despite the fact that just before the reactor died due to the brilliance of cold war soviet engineering the very control rods that were supposed to tame it made it jump to about 30GW which was the final blow to the abused core and it could take no more. And even then it did not go nuclear, because it cant.

Also a little bit of trivia. When reactor no.4 blew up in 86, the other three reactors at that plant remained intact and in operation producing power until they were subsequently taken offline in '91, '96 and the last one, reactor no.3 in 2000.

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Originally posted by Moongoose Also a little bit of trivia. When reactor no.4 blew up in 86, the other three reactors at that plant remained intact and in operation producing power until they were subsequently taken offline in '91, '96 and the last one, reactor no.3 in 2000.

Wat. The Chernobyl reactors? Don't think so.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Wat. The Chernobyl reactors? Don't think so.

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The Chernobyl reactors are of the RBMK type. These are high-power, pressure-tube reactors, moderated with graphite and cooled with water. At the time of the Chernobyl accident there were 17 RBMKs in operation in the Soviet Union and two in Lithuania. Since the accident, five RBMKs have been shut down. All four units at Chernobyl and one of the Lithuanian RBMKs were shut down. At Chernobyl: � Unit 4 reactor was destroyed in the 1986 accident; � Unit 2 was shut down five years later; after a serious turbine building fire; � Unit 1 was closed in November 1996, and � Unit 3 was closed December 15, 1999, as promised by Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma. In Lithuania, Ignalina Unit 1 was shut down in December 2004 as a condition of admission to the European Union. Of the remaining 12 operating RBMKs, 11 are in Russia and one is in Lithuania (proposed to be decommissioned by 2009).

Source


Also, how the fuck is Nou the voice of reason in this thread? Ok besides Lira of course, but saying that Lira is the voice of reason is like saying that water is wet. Redundant.

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Originally posted by Moongoose Source

I never knew that, very interesting. How was the plant operated, considering the high levels of radiation in the area?

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Originally posted by Moongoose Also, how the fuck is Nou the voice of reason in this thread? Ok besides Lira of course, but saying that Lira is the voice of reason is like saying that water is wet. Redundant.

Nou has always had an interest in nuclear related stuff, as long as I've been posting here, anyway. I assume that being well-read on a topic like that means less "OMG OMG the sky is falling because the media told me so" type of behaviour

I've lost interest in this story....time for a new disaster to watch.

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Originally posted by rulzz

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Originally posted by Sushipunk ^^ And that means what, exactly?

With a name like SUSHIpunk, you should know, surely?!

Basic translation...


White title across the top: Tokai shinkansen (bullet train) ltd service(?)

Words on the right: From Tokyo Electric

Yellow writing: Fukushima number 1 power plant
White writing above that: Tohoku / Kanto earthquake / "dai shinsai - Great Earthquake disaster

First of all, I'm never again writing a long response in a browser window! I'm typing this in notepad now and I'm pasting it in the reply box later, and I'm not spending another better part of an hour to write that shit out so here is the short version of what was supposed to be a very long and potentially interesting post. Anyway...

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Originally posted by Sushipunk I never knew that, very interesting. How was the plant operated, considering the high levels of radiation in the area?

Well its not widely known, so that's why I put it out there an a unbelievable/shocking fact. Now don't expect me to remember everything as the basis for my whole understanding of the disaster was a dedicated issue of a local science journal I read way back in high school (dedicated since they were talking about the shutdown of the last reactor, so it had to be back in 98 or 99 that I've read it).

Anyway, the thing about radiation is that its hardly uniform in all areas. After the explosion and even more so today there is a huge difference in radiation level based on where you are. For instance:

After the reactor blew, the immediate area around it radiated with about 300Sv/hr. To put that in context, a lethal dose is about 6Sv/day. The first lives claimed by the reactor were the technicians that died in the explosion itself.

Reactor area aside, the radiation elsewhere was like this (note I'm copying this info from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherno...adiation_levels), but if you have time to waste the 76 page report that those values are based on can be found here (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDo...oc=GetTRDoc.pdf)



Location | Sieverts per hour (SI Unit)
Vicinity of the reactor core | 300
Fuel fragments | 150-200
Debris heap at the place of circulation pumps | 100
Debris near the electrolyzers | 50-150
Water in the Level +25 feedwater room| 50
Level 0 of the turbine hall | 5-150
Area of the affected unit | 10-15
Water in Room 712 | 10
Control room, shortly after explosion | .03-.05
Gidroelektromontazh depot | .3
Nearby concrete mixing unit | .10-.15



So even immediately after the explosion, the control room was relatively safe. The reason most technicians died being that they were sent out to check out on the state of the reactor (like from the roof, where there was radiation of about 150Sv/hr...those people didn't survive) or do crisis management in the reactor building itself, which was filled with highly irradiated water, steam and remnants of nuclear fuel. The change that only several metres of distance between people had on survival is probably best summed up in this quote (again from wiki as I'm not pouring trough source docs again)

quote:

Alexander Yuvchenko was located in his office between reactors 3 and 4, on Level 12.5; he described the event as a shock wave that buckled walls, blew doors in, and brought a cloud of milky grey radioactive dust and steam. The lights went out. He met a badly burned, drenched and shocked pump operator, who asked him to rescue Khodemchuk; that quickly proved impossible as that part of the building did not exist anymore. Yuvchenko, together with the foreman Yuri Tregub, ran out of the building and saw half of the building gone and the reactor emitting a blue glow of ionized air. They returned to the building and met Valeri Perevozchenko and two junior technicians, Kudryavtsev and Proskuryakov, ordered by Dyatlov to manually lower the presumably seized control rods. Tregub went to report the extent of damage to the control room. Despite Yuvchenko's explanation that there were no control rods left, the four climbed a stairwell to Level 35 to survey the damage; Yuvchenko held open the massive door into the reactor room and the other three proceeded in to locate the control rod mechanism; after no more than a minute of surveying the reactor debris, enough for all three to sustain fatal doses of radiation, they returned, their skin darkened with "nuclear tan" in reaction to the high radiation dose. The three were the first to die in the Moscow hospital. Yuvchenko meanwhile suffered serious beta burns and gamma burns to his left shoulder, hip and calf as he kept the radioactive-dust-covered door open. It was later estimated he received a dose of 4.1 Sv. At 3:00 am, he began vomiting intensely; by 6:00 am, he could no longer walk. He later spent a year in the Moscow hospital receiving blood and plasma transfusions and received numerous skin grafts.

And the danger was contained even further with the construction of the concrete sarcophagus around the reactor #4 later that year, containing all of that dangerous radiation, dust, nuclear fuel and debris. So even in the immediate aftermath of the explosion the control room was relatively safe, and with the later containment of the reactor even more so. One just probably needed to avoid all the places that the really nasty stuff that blew out of the reactor hit the ground (which was cleaned anyway but cleaning radiation doesn't work all that well).

The radiation should stop being a problem in the next 300 year or so anyway, so no worries there.



As for the current problems in Japan

quote:

The plant's owners, the Tokyo Electric Power Company, evacuated all but about 50 of their workers from the plant following Tuesday's explosion at the No. 2 reactor. Radiation levels at the plant have increased to "levels that can impact human health," Edano said -- between 100 and 400 millisieverts (and reducing - my comment), or as much as 160 times higher than the average dose of radiation a typical person receives from natural sources in a year.

Source (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/a...dex.html?hpt=T1)


So even with all that's going on, considerably less than in Chernobyl. That's of course the levels at the plant itself, not around it. The evacuation is in case the damn things actually blows and releases large amounts of radiation into the air.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Nou has always had an interest in nuclear related stuff, as long as I've been posting here, anyway. I assume that being well-read on a topic like that means less "OMG OMG the sky is falling because the media told me so" type of behaviour

While that's a perfectly valid explanation, knowing that Nou is right just feels wrong

Dear people praying for Japan,

You know those people you're praying for? Who are now homeless because of the earthquake and the tsunami? It's now snowing there and they're freezing to death.

You need to pray harder.

xoxoxoxo,
- Lira

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Originally posted by Lira Dear people praying for Japan, You know those people you're praying for? Who are now homeless because of the earthquake and the tsunami? It's now snowing there and they're freezing to death. You need to pray harder. xoxoxoxo, - Lira

Dear Lira,

That's a pretty asshole thing to say to people who are expressing sympathy and love for their fellow man. Maybe not the time to attack their faith, which may also be motivating more secular and tangable charitable offerings.

Best regards,

Craig

What? If those people are so far gone that they believe that prayer actually works than they are clearly doing a piss poor job at praying and need to put more effort into it.

Earthquake, tsunami, potential for nuclear meltdown and now snow. Clearly some of those people that are praying are slacking off.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Dear Lira, That's a pretty asshole thing to say to people who are expressing sympathy and love for their fellow man. Maybe not the time to attack their faith, which may also be motivating more secular and tangable charitable offerings. Best regards, Craig

Dear Craig,

I know, that's why I didn't post it on Facebook where most Christians I know happen to be and might be offended (I only posted it here because I know you and Megan - are there any more Christians around here? - probably know I'm just being silly). I didn't mean to attack anyone's faith, but just point out that the combination of unfortunate events is becoming ridiculous already and all the more difficult to watch. So, if there's a God, it would be pretty nice if He could just cut them some slack by now.

Sorry if it sounded offensive in any way,

- Lira

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Originally posted by Lira Dear Craig, I know, that's why I didn't post it on Facebook where most Christians I know happen to be and might be offended (I only posted it here because I know you and Megan - are there any more Christians around here? - probably know I'm just being silly). I didn't mean to attack anyone's faith, but just point out that the combination of unfortunate events is becoming ridiculous already and all the more difficult to watch. So, if there's a God, it would be pretty nice if He could just cut them some slack by now. Sorry if it sounded offensive in any way, - Lira

YEs Me !!!!

You are forgiven

Lol I get what you're saying lira... We did give what bit of money we could, but you still feel helpless... When rowan and I pray, we pray that the people affected will be able to find comfort durring this tragedy and that the aid workers will be able to work to the best of their ability... I don't know if prayer can actually change weather patterns or stop nuclear reactors.. I don't know. And ffs this better not turn into a stupid religious debate... This thread is about japan. If you want to tell me how delusional and jaded I am feel free to send me a pm.

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Originally posted by wienerschnitzel This thread is about japan

Yes! This is what scares me to death about Japan: girl groups that are so big that I'm afraid they'll collapse into themselves and turn into a pink hole in cuteland (as opposed to a black hole in space):

AKB48 (yes, there are 48 members in this group alone!)



NMB48 (A copycat from another city, with more 48 girls)



SKE48 (There's definitely a pattern here!)



SDN48 (The rather nsfw version)



I'm terrified by how powerful this oestrogen-fuelled time bomb will become the moment they all sync together and decide to... hell knows what they're going to do, but they easily outnumber any group of superheroes I know of!

I'm terrified!

ps.: Oh, and I don't think you're delusional. If anyone does, I say they're the ones with a problem!

Tsunami Warnings in Hawaii

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/03/1...mage/index.html

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Originally posted by Lira Dear people praying for Japan, You know those people you're praying for? Who are now homeless because of the earthquake and the tsunami? It's now snowing there and they're freezing to death. You need to pray harder. xoxoxoxo, - Lira

I affirm what Craig said. I expected more from you.

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Originally posted by Lira SDN48 (The rather nsfw version) http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_AYxVIP6Cn...sdn48_nude.jpeg

More of that i say!

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Originally posted by Moongoose More of that i say!

back row 2nd from the left

Just heard in the last couple of hours they have evacuated a 10km area around the Fukushima Daini plant, the other plant south of the one causing 95% of the issues right now. No details as to why are known.

Could just be seeing radiation levels rise around that plant and doing it for precautionary reasons right now, but it is the middle of the night over there.

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Originally posted by igottaknow I affirm what Craig said. I expected more from you.

Well I thought the comment was much needed and spot on.

Nobody denies that praying people's hearts are in the right place, but the absurdity of praying to an omniscient/omnipotent being always strikes me as rather pointless and a bit conceited. Honestly guys, do you think you know something your god doesn't? If a god exists, he designed the universe, the planet, and knew about every factor involved in this tsunami long before it took place. Being omniscient and omnipotent, he knew what the consequences would be and could have prevented the earthquake if he chose to, but he obviously wanted it to happen. Why should he change his mind now? If he were to hear your pleas and and alter his plans for the aftermath, wouldn't that imply he wasn't omniscient or that made some sort of mistake in the first place? What kind of theological implications would that have for ya?

Every comment that disabuses people of the notion that prayer has any effect is a positive thing in my book. Sure it may hurt feelings and cause a few outraged scowls in the short run, but in order to make a difference in the long run, we need to move towards a world where people deal with reality on reality's terms, take whatever practical action they can, and stop believing they are helping things by talking to themselves. If that means a little rudeness towards superstition after events like this, so be it.

Whats more interesting to me than the radiation half life, is the half-life of AKB48 members before they start doing AV, and man does the corresponding half-lives just get better after that stage!

I think they've lost two former members to the wily ways of pixelated pleasure!

pretty amazing new photos, courtesy of the Boston Globe's "Big Picture" series...



http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/20...evastation.html

DISCLAIMER: The following is definitely NOT meant to be taken personally by anyone, including the person to which it is addressed. It is meant to introduce perspective that, while not quite God-like, certainly attempts to paint an elevated picture through the use of carefully placed irony, self-deprecation, and tongue and cheek humor.

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Originally posted by Lira are there any more Christians around here?

I'm Christian. I'm also so insecure about my faith that I'm taking great offense at pretty much everything which could be construed to attack the ostensibly unprovable, omnipotent being which, apparently, I have "deluded" myself into believing in because it's the only remedy I have to cure the over-whelming fears (See Savage Worrier Spirit) conjured by this ultimately harsh world in which we live.

While I could have read your questioning of my faith as an expression of your own dismay and suffering, I am instead finding myself looking at your remarks as that which reflects poorly on me. While it would certainly have been the Christian thing to do, to turn the other cheek and let your verbal misstep slide into obscurity, I will, instead, lord your mistake over you with a carping guilt-trip to compensate for the fact that my unprovable entity will not reveal himself to you in the way you think he should manifest, were He to actually exist in anything other than my imagination.

So, please, as sarcastically as you can imagine (up to and including, a God-like sense of irony), accept my apology for my prayers not having the satisfactory results you'd envisioned. I'm quite sorry that, on top of the Earth's crust shifting so violently that a massive shock-wave of kinetic energy caused the earth to shake as the water surrounding its tectonic epicenter displaced so rapidly that a significant portion of Japan's Eastern shoreline remains under water, prevailing weather patterns persisted in the wake of such catastrophic devastation.

Earth's crust moves. Water displaces without compression. Man-made structures, including those which are designed to make use of mined fissile, nuclear material refined for potency so their innate energy can be harnessed to elevate the temperature of water to induce steam which then propels turbines attached to cam-shafts which drive a series of magnets between wire coils, are compromised; along with whatever safety apparatuses were contrived to mitigate dangers to the public's welfare. Low pressure systems and cold temperatures allow for moisture in the air to condensate into frozen precipitation called snow. Never a miscommunication. It just happens. You can't explain that.

Or, perhaps, there's something more to religion than a merely palliative, pseudo-opiate amelioration of human suffering?

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