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-- Vinyls vs. CDs
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Miss bliss, CD's do not cost £3.99!! If you use a site like Beatport then about 80p-£1 per track at good quality.
And vinyl doesn't sound better than CD, another myth. Most clubs systems are set up for vinyl, so if you put a CD on that system ,then yes vinyl will sound better, but get it set up for CD then ther is NO comparison, CD will sound better evey time.
Vinyl record is dated technology, the needle rocking in a groove, no very subtle and hence the needle has to be stable and therefore you lose quality. No such problem with CD.
And Greak is right. The PRS can check anytime and bust your ass! Career over! Maybe your house too!
There is quite often someone standing next to the DJ at a big club noting EVERY tune they play, thats so the royalties got to the correct people. But they can quite easily be nasty and raid you. Its happened alot.

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy Miss bliss, CD's do not cost £3.99!! If you use a site like Beatport then about 80p-£1 per track at good quality. And vinyl doesn't sound better than CD, another myth. Most clubs systems are set up for vinyl, so if you put a CD on that system ,then yes vinyl will sound better, but get it set up for CD then ther is NO comparison, CD will sound better evey time. Vinyl record is dated technology, the needle rocking in a groove, no very subtle and hence the needle has to be stable and therefore you lose quality. No such problem with CD. And Greak is right. The PRS can check anytime and bust your ass! Career over! Maybe your house too! There is quite often someone standing next to the DJ at a big club noting EVERY tune they play, thats so the royalties got to the correct people. But they can quite easily be nasty and raid you. Its happened alot.

..never said cds cost 3.99
and I've been dj'n for many years, been in the booth for Mauro Picotto, Andy Moor, Max Graham but I've never seen that done to anyone. I'm not saying that doesn't happen anywhere, I'm just saying it doesn't happen in Canada and probably the whole of North America - it's much different.

oops, sorry Miss Bliss, didn't realise it was dj Fraz who said about 3.99 for a CD!
The PRS people have took everything from some people. no superstar DJs but some supposedly big ones, don't know the names, but one was definitely Australian. it was in Music Week (a weekly music journal). But its only if they have dodgy CDs, I mean downloaded illegaly then burned then played out, with thousands stored on their hardrive. if you download legally then no problemo! So no big DJs will ever be done. The only other thing they do is collect royalties so someone may log a tracklisting, or the venue has to pay an annual license, so the producers, labels etc get paid!

Actually the whole industry is up in arms about how to deal with MP3s at the moment. I don't know if you saw Freak's post a while back.

The PPL in the UK don't consider it legal to play purchased MP3s in a club but they just don't know how to tackle it.

To me it sounds like they are using it as an oportunity to make more money out of people who are under the belief that they are obeying the law and supporting the artists.

I'm just itching for a PPL guy to approach me about a burned CD with my own stuff on it. I just really want to tear into them bigstyle about the whole thing.
In the big scheme of things it's not the DJ industry that are the biggest offenders when it comes to pirated music but we are the easiest target as we gather at set places.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy I've read here, that Sasah plays the same set mostly, and this is Mr Ableton! I thought the point of ableton was for creativity???

Sasha might play similar songs from set to set but he still makes it different using Ableton. The set he played in Montreal last june is very similar to the one he played @ Lush when you compare the songs he played but it's still a very different set if you pay attention to the details incoporated by ableton.

Anyway I think it's normal for a touring DJ to play similar song since he's playing for a different crowd everynight.

For me personally, DJing is an art and is for many of u on here. I dj with both Vinyl and CD because CDs are starting to become more frequent with today's track releases. The best of both worlds i guess. CDs aren't a bad thing but transtioning completely to CD isn't in my boat. With digital, it takes the whole art form away. U can just keep those time-coded records or CDs on the whole time and never change them the entire set. It loses the feel. You don't even need the information laptops show about each track to mix anyways. Why use it besides the fact that it can carry a crap load of MP3 files. do they really need that much? Keep it real, dont lose the art form on which DJing orginated from. As far as ableton, i'd say keep it to productions if your a DJ. I can see it being used live if someone was collaborating with a band or something along those lines but not for DJing. When people think of DJing, they think of turntables with a mixer in between them with a DJ having a crate of vinyl near him mixin his/her tunes. They can also think about CDJ since that has been around for quite some time but the people who go to clubs would be really surprised when they see some dude looking at a computer screen the whole time and not change a single record or cd. And also not using headphones for most of the time (**cough cough sasha**). I am also about a live DJ set being mostly about the music and track selection. if that is good then u can look past some off beat notices as long as it doesn't happen a lot. But seeing some dude using a computer with some external interface really has brought down the whole DJing industry and what it used to be.

Seriously, go out into the public and ask people what people think of when they hear the word "DJ". U would hardly find an answer that has the word "computer" in it. KEEP IT REAL PEOPLE, KEEP IT TO WHAT DJING IS ALL ABOUT.
**DJ is an acronym for DISC Jockey....DISC!!!!. cd: understandable. Computer with ableton: not.
Sorry, im against Digital.

quote:

Originally posted by ti_gui909 Sasha might play similar songs from set to set but he still makes it different using Ableton. The set he played in Montreal last june is very similar to the one he played @ Lush when you compare the songs he played but it's still a very different set if you pay attention to the details incoporated by ableton. Anyway I think it's normal for a touring DJ to play similar song since he's playing for a different crowd everynight.

Yes they do tend to play similar tracks if not the same, well some of them anyway.
Sasha is one of the guys who was known to play pretty much the same set for a month even with vinyl. Which in my mind isn't really what it's about either but that's a different story.

But for the people who see a DJ twice in a shorter period of time, if the only thing they are going to have to differenciate between the two sets is what effects he used then something is seriously wrong. Mixing is about stringing tunes together well but DJing is about giving people the tune of the moment! Sadly something that seems to be getting lost in this Ableton wave.

Regretably as we see it we may be seeing the death of DJing as well as vinyl.

Ableton is a good tool, but I feel that many of the bedroom DJs can't see past being able to do a flawless mix and and effects, and as I have said, mixing is secondary to being a good DJ.

Admittedly, we don't go to a club to see some guy in headphones but we do want a good vibe and someone who is actually paying attention to what they are doing as well as paying attention to the clubber.

Besides if you want to do clever stuff live, get a friend get 4 CDJs and a few effects boxes, learn to beat juggle and do it that way. The end result would be much more fun to see than some geek on a laptop. If you had a duo that could produce something exciting people would be more interested in paying to see it too. A group of turntablists can produce some wicked results far more intersting than something from Ableton.

Cheers
Nem

STEREO VS VINLY?

quote:

Originally posted by deejayle STEREO VS VINLY?

Eh?

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Eh?

he said:
tiP ehT fO mottoB

Totally agree with you guys. The only aim a DJ should have is to give the crowd a good night, that is there sole purpose. It dosen't matter how they do it, but the art of reading the crowd is the most important thing and hence what tune comes next. If the mixing isn't perfect then so what? 90% of people don't even notice. My fav DJ is Oakenfold, I've heard him being slagged for not being a great mixer but he always plays some amazing tunes, and you are guaranteed a good time. I want to be excited when i go out, not go "hmm, some perfectly phrased mixing here and nice flange effect".
If someone is on tour then I can understand a similar set most of the time, but then they are not really reading the crowd are they? But if they are using a laptop with 50 million zillion tunes to pick from, then there is no excuse! They can play anything they want, quickly, (as we are always told Abletons possibilities are endless)so why do they play the same set??? Laziness? Do they actually care? Living on past glories?

I agree with you guys too.
Ableton is great for producing and alterning some tracks, but as far as true DJ talent goes - it will always be in the discs, cds or records. Technology will NEVER take out the discs in disc jockeying, it will just become some 'other' kinf of 'performance' that no doubt will be much less respected that true DJ'n. I have no problem with CDs over Vinyl, as long as there's a combination and working knowledge of both.
Cheers.
Jessie

quote:

Originally posted by Freak he said: tiP ehT fO mottoB

Where the hell are you by the way, to be lost in the Atlantic?

Cheers
Nem

I AGREE

me im a man who likes to use software,cds & vinyl

software would have to be Traktor or ableton live


i agee though i think its because they is lazy man look at PVD's set at Dance valley 2005 i think he used the cdjs twice in his full set & did'nt play one vinyl he used to apple laptops which was connected to the final scratch unit no wonder he did'nt make a mistake you cant with final scratch u can set it up to do auto BPM and Oh my god the software is realy accurate no joke! i have traktor & ableton live.i have not try'd to dj wid ableton yet whats it like? i know DJ Sasha used it in all his sets so far this year.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Mixing is about stringing tunes together well but DJing is about giving people the tune of the moment! Sadly something that seems to be getting lost in this Ableton wave.

I agree with you DJing should be about feeling the crowd and feeding it what it starves for !!! When a DJ uses Ableton and plays the same tune at each set it becomes a performance, an act, wich is also very good, only different.

Its a pointless debate anyway. As everyone knows, real DJs use casette decks.

Seen that Casset Deck many many times her on TA.
I feel sorry for you guys under the PPL, the laws are getting out of control more and more. All these stupid-ass laws that are trying to fight piracy (and failing miserably) suck and are starting to kill DJ's who use CDS and or Computers.

DJ 00 Tommy,
You've got it so wrong. The PPL, PRS, BPI, AIM, MCPS etc. are there to protect music people. They are trying to stamp out piracy, and make sure the people who make the tunes and license them, get the money they deserve! If they don't get the money, then people are going to stop making them eventually, and then where will we be? Many good companies have gone out of business already (HOOJ Choons for example).
They collect royalties for labels and writers, the PRS do a similar job, but collect for artists and publishers. They are only after people who download illegaly. If people play out using dodgy downloads then tough, if they get caught, which is highly unlikely anyway. Buying a good quality download is cheap now anyway.
Yeah, there is a grey area about playing out copies of legitimate CDs in clubs, but as long as you can prove you have the original, or paid to download, then it should be ok. But to say there laws are stupid-ass isn't very clever! Don't you won't rid of piracy and for producers/labels to make money?

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy DJ 00 Tommy, You've got it so wrong.

no he hasnt.

quote:

The PPL, PRS, BPI, AIM, MCPS etc. are there to protect music people. They are trying to stamp out piracy, and make sure the people who make the tunes and license them, get the money they deserve!

so are you saying its DJs that are causing the most damage to the music industry? please, we spend more money on music than all of the regular cosumers who are the ones pirating. and you think charging 200 pounds a year is fair to those who have already legally purchased their songs? thats just bullshit.

theyve made it illegal to play your own edits without permission. or your own remixes. that really puts a cramp on edm's versatile nature. if i wanna cut out 30 seconds of a song during a long breakdown, why shouldnt i be able to?

quote:

Yeah, there is a grey area about playing out copies of legitimate CDs in clubs, but as long as you can prove you have the original, or paid to download, then it should be ok. But to say there laws are stupid-ass isn't very clever! Don't you won't rid of piracy and for producers/labels to make money?

except theyve gone further than that (see above). im all for stamping out piracy, and love to see hefty fines against those DJs breaking sensible & fair laws. but the PPL's actions (im basing this on what freak posted a while back) are a disgrace imo.

PkcRaistlin,
What that dude said was "stupid-ass laws to fight piracy". That IS wrong, coz anyone fighting piracy is a good thing surely? Thats all I meant. I know he meant that their ways of tackling it maybe stupid-ass but it just read badly.
I don't think u read what I said very carefully. Where did I say DJs are the problem??? I NEVER said DJs are the problem, I'm a DJ too. I said people who download illegaly are the problem.
You never addressed the bit about record labels, writers and performers getting their royalties? Thats what all the socities aim for. To protect the people who make the music possible. Without them you and I won't be DJing. They have to get the money they desreve.
I totally agree with you, that DJs are the easy targets and that losers at home downlaoding from lime wire etc are the real problem, but thats life, its impossible to go round everyones house checking hard drives!
I don't know anyone who has joined the PPL unless they are a label, and there are ways around it. For the PPL to actually get you on a night DJing is highly unlikely, not impossible, but very remote chance. The venue should have a license to start with. And as I said previously, if you can prove you have the original then there is NO problem. Otherwise why would anyone download from Beatport etc.? You would be a rare case indeed if you got done for playing out CDs with original proof of purchase! I think they have bigger cases on their mind where people have thousands of files on their hardrive illegaly. People say that you can't play out CDs, you can, if you have purchased the original. The rules aren't crystal clear tho, I agree.
Ok, again, I agree, you should have the right to do what you want with the music and play it as you feel, but from their point of view, once again people are losing out on royalties. You can't do a remix of a tune without permission from the label or artist or whoever owns the copyright. Whether its on your laptop or pressed on to vinyl is irrelevant. It is illegal. A remix is a remix, its just quicker and easier and more convenient on your laptop than the whole vinyl pressing process, but the end result is the same. You are reworking someone elses work without permission.
This whole digital thing is very much in its infancy, and the ways of tackling it obviously are too! Hopefully, over the next year or two it will become a bit more agreeable for everyone and PPL will find a better way of tackling it. Probably a no win battle they are fighting anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy For the PPL to actually get you on a night DJing is highly unlikely, not impossible, but very remote chance. The venue should have a license to start with. And as I said previously, if you can prove you have the original then there is NO problem. Otherwise why would anyone download from Beatport etc.? You would be a rare case indeed if you got done for playing out CDs with original proof of purchase! I think they have bigger cases on their mind where people have thousands of files on their hardrive illegaly. People say that you can't play out CDs, you can, if you have purchased the original.

Look- you are talking utter cack (again).
I encounter the PRS and the PPL and (on the odd occasion) trading standards quite often. They make checks across the uk every single night of the week in all sorts of venues.
There IS a problem- and that is they do not like you using non original source material. Regardless of the fact I have downloaded it legally, or the fact I own something daft like 15000+ vinyl records and have simply backed a lot of them up onto vinyl for practical and longevity reasons, they dont care. If its a CDR, or even a white label 12", they moan.
Currently they are trying to tell people that even LEGALLY downloaded tracks are not legal to play out and are for personal use only. They are telling me this- despite ( and i post one random example here) download sites having disclaimers such as the following:

quote:

"5. Permitted Uses: Under this limited license you shall have the right to copy or transfer the relevant digital file to any desktop computer, laptop computer, or playback device owned by you, and/or to a recordable medium (such as CD-R or DVD-R) for your personal use without restriction but subject at all times to the fair use provisions of the United States Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §107. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary stated elsewhere in this Agreement, you shall be entitled to publicly perform Downloads as part of DJ performances provided that you shall submit the playlist information for any use of the Downloads as part of such DJ performances to the relevant performing rights society(ies) as required under applicable laws. For the avoidance of doubt, we shall not be responsible for payment of public performance royalties or phonographic performance royalties to the rel evan t society(ies) with respect to your use of Downloads and you hereby expressly agree to indemnify us against any third party claims arising in connection with your use of Downloads as part of DJ performances."

Now despite the above example, and all similar ones, they STILL try and do you for using CDR's- they will come in and try and confiscate your material, and then they may give you (normally ) 7 days to produce the originals.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the venue having a licence. That is merely a licence to perform copyrighted material.
As for the royalties- the checks for these are made completely seperately- and that is when someone comes and stands near or in the console and writes down every artist,track and label you play.

You live in a fucking fantasy land. These organistions are out to get cash first and foremost, and artists or Dj's are not their primary concern- The most recent example of this being this digital dj licence turd/scam/ripoff.

Fair enough mate, you obviously know lots more about it than me. Not gonna argue about it. I did a music business course and I'm only saying what I was told! Looks like they need to update their course a bit!
If websites have this stuff about being able to play downloads, and the PRS say no, then wow! yeah problem!
I know a DJ who has been playing for 20 years and only uses CD. He downloads from Napster and he says there are loopholes, and that it is a grey area, not black and white i.e. you can or you can't do it. I think he may have some license from a radio station or something.
Do you know anyone who has had any fines or worse by the PPL etc?

quote:

Originally posted by missbliss I agree with you guys too. Ableton is great for producing and alterning some tracks, but as far as true DJ talent goes - it will always be in the discs, cds or records. Technology will NEVER take out the discs in disc jockeying, it will just become some 'other' kinf of 'performance' that no doubt will be much less respected that true DJ'n. I have no problem with CDs over Vinyl, as long as there's a combination and working knowledge of both. Cheers. Jessie

No offence but you have no idea what youre talking about. TRUE DJING?? hahhaha do you even know what that is first off?

You peole remind me of CD bashers, now some of the worlds best are using them solely...they arent true DJs??...hahah

If I spent 2000 dollars on a bunch of vinyl equipment and another 3000 dollars on records, had to chug around 50 lbs of record and knew my mixes were still limited to some were just impossible to do on vinyl than with CDJs or software...I would be pissed as well.

Ableton will never be in the ranks of true DJs?! =P hahaha

Rememebr when the first rock artists atrted using electric guitars...they were called Judas, where would rock be without it today? Technology moves forward, some people dont.

Youre missing the whole point of what a good DJ is unfortunately. That is something no technology can replace unless it came built with superior AI. Youre so called true DJing is not beat matching unfortunately, its about building musical flows which only musicians who understand music theory and the art of it can do. Its about creating harmonious flows, when mixing thinking of the mext 2-3 tracks, not just the next one coming up, its about using certain melodies to counter or complement others from track to track, creativity (and when youre using vinyl your mixes are already limited before you even start!) and originality its about teasing the listener, using some bass oriented tracks a certain way and using synth oriented tracks a certain way in a good set.

Djing is not some fad where any hick goes to a record shop, saves up 2 years of cash from working at McDonalds, buys techincs, learns to beatmatch and starts performing...thats about 95% of the DJs out there.

"when mixing thinking of the mext 2-3 tracks, not just the next one coming up, its about using certain melodies to counter or complement others from track to track, creativity (and when youre using vinyl your mixes are already limited before you even start!) and originality its about teasing the listener, using some bass oriented tracks a certain way and using synth oriented tracks a certain way in a good set."

Ok see you obviously don't have a fucking CLUE as to what you are talking about because any REAL DJ who PLAYS RECORDS. KNOWS. THAT. THIS. IS. HOW. PHRASE. MIXING. BECOMES. REALITY. AND. WHY. VINYL. IS. BETTER.

The damd grooves on the records in the form of the lighter and darker bands ARE the visual reference to the musical mathematics you moron. YOU DON'T GET THAT WITH ANY KIND OF DIGITAL SYSTEM. EVER.

And as a result all these so-called top jocks are starting to really fucking suck it when they play and all these new twits fail to understand how this mathematical formula works (which cannot be fucked with regardless of who you think you might think you are or who you might know who might be in the know) and are effectively DJING DEAF AND BLIND. It's like reading sheet music guys and building lego at the same time. You can't do it with invisible ink on the paper while forcing the blocks together at an angle. It just doesn't fucking work.

You YES YOU, sufee_b have been disqualified from participating in any further discussion about this because you stuffed your foot in your mouth and I just put it further in so you would know that you did just that.

Got it?

quote:

Originally posted by Freak "5. Permitted Uses: Under this limited license you shall have the right to copy or transfer the relevant digital file to any desktop computer, laptop computer, or playback device owned by you, and/or to a recordable medium (such as CD-R or DVD-R) for your personal use without restriction but subject at all times to the fair use provisions of the United States Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §107. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary stated elsewhere in this Agreement, you shall be entitled to publicly perform Downloads as part of DJ performances provided that you shall submit the playlist information for any use of the Downloads as part of such DJ performances to the relevant performing rights society(ies) as required under applicable laws. For the avoidance of doubt, we shall not be responsible for payment of public performance royalties or phonographic performance royalties to the rel evan t society(ies) with respect to your use of Downloads and you hereby expressly agree to indemnify us against any third party claims arising in connection with your use of Downloads as part of DJ performances."

Where the fuck did you get this statement from?? This is such a scam for them to even suggest the things they do in the second paragraph as even remotely being corect. Submitting a playlist for sets by some hack who uses a download services isn't going to get him off the hook from performances royalty fees when from what I have read in other "sections of" some of these download site providers terms of service agreements clearly stating that the tracks obtained off the site through the service are not licensed for public performance or broadcast.


I would really be interested to know where that came from. Please get me the link to what provider is saying that.

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