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quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z It wasn't said for your amusement, nor do I operate on that pathetic level consciousness or social interaction. You're not terribly familiar with the concept of honest expression or criticism, and don't seem to be able to handle it whatsoever. Grow some balls, real ones.

It's precisely the fact that it wasn't said for my amusement that makes it so amusing. If it had been intended as a joke it would have been a lackluster one, but the fact that it is "honest expression" makes it far more revealing, and what is revealed is rather droll.

quote:

No, I'm just not an insecure dick like you with a macho complex. I think people actually have a right to live, regardless of weather they're Palestinian or Jewish, and should not be subjected to the brutality of a military / militia force. You on the other hand said that the Palestinians deserve it for voting in Hamas. First of all, you presumptuous asshole, they didn't vote in a party for a desire to kill... despite Hamas' deplorable ideological motifs embedded in the organization, they're one of the few organizations actually providing some kind of relief when it comes to daily living. And by your argument, Americans deserve to die for voting in regimes that sponsor terrorism globally and topple over regimes, you know, state sponsored terrorism, the kind you seem to conveniently ignore. Your logic is genocidal and fucked up, not to mention totally hypocritical. And earlier you said all Arabs / Muslims are animals or something to that effect. You've also been around for a while and by this point have had plenty of exposure to the facts of the matter and grievances of all involved in the fiasco, so you should be able to do better than that.

All I am saying is that when you play with fire, you accept the risk that you'll be burned. I'm well aware that they believed that they had a good reason for playing with fire--they had to make a choice, risk versus reward. Now they are getting the bad with the good; excuse me if I'm not teary-eyed for them. The right to life certainly does not entail a right to be free of the consequences of one's decisions.

The real victims here are the Palestinians who did not vote for Hamas. They made a prudent choice and yet they still must bear the consequences of the unwise choices of their neighbors. It's a shame--another miserable chapter in the squalid history of majoritarian government. But if they die, that blood is on the hands of those neighbors and the government that has led them to their death. If they are to die, I suggest that they go down fighting against their real enemies--those among them who choose badly.

We are all animals, struggling to survive just as our ancestors have for millenia. It's almost certainly true that there are plenty of Americans who deserve to die. But Americans have an advantage--good decisions in the past have created considerable room for error in the present. But nothing lasts forever. If and when Americans bring destruction upon themselves, then--in the only sense that matters--they will "deserve" those consequences as well...

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Well, Hamas kinda won, actually. Look at Gaza. And think of what Palestinians think of this. GO ISRAEL GO?!? I dont think so.

The declaration of victory for Hamas amounts to a poor attempt at face-saving, as its leadership has been decimated and its infrastructure heavily damaged... and since the IDF remains in position in Gaza:

quote:

In a speech broadcast on Hamas television on Sunday night, Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh said the Palestinians had achieved a historical and strategic victory over Israel, and claimed that Israel's military operation in the Gaza Strip had failed. The Hamas leader repeated the terror organization's demand for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the Strip, and for the opening of the border crossings.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

Note to Hamas: When the enemy has its army encamped in your territory and you have to make demands for them to leave when the fighting stops, you didn't win. They had a cease-fire in place in December, without Israeli soldiers all over Gaza, and Hamas ended it in a hail of missile and rocket fire. A month later, several of their top people are dead, Gaza has been heavily damaged, and they're isolated politically among other Arab nations, plus the IDF is now holding Gaza in a vise grip, and all Hamas has is another cease-fire. Yeah � some victory. LOL!

Where's the UN now by the way?

quote:

Hamas militiamen have rounded up hundreds of Fatah activists on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel during Operation Cast Lead, Fatah members in the Gaza Strip told The Jerusalem Post on Monday. The Fatah members and eyewitnesses said the detainees were being held in school buildings and hospitals that Hamas had turned into make-shift interrogation centers. Hamas has also renewed house arrest orders that were issued against thousands of Fatah officials and activists in the Gaza Strip shortly after the military operation started. A Fatah official in Ramallah told the Post that at least 100 of his men had been killed or wounded as a result of the massive Hamas crackdown. Some had been brutally tortured, he added. The official said that the perpetrators belonged to Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and to the movement's Internal Security Force. According to the official, at least three of the detainees had their eyes put out by their interrogators, who accused them of providing Israel with wartime information about the location of Hamas militiamen and officials. A number of Hamas leaders and spokesmen have claimed in the past few days that Fatah members in the Gaza Strip had been spying on their movement and passing the information to Israel. Two Hamas officials, Salah Bardaweel and Fawzi Barhoum, accused Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and his "spies" in the Gaza Strip of tipping off the Israelis about the movements of slain Hamas interior minister Said Siam, who was killed in an IAF strike on his brother's home in Gaza City last week. The Fatah official in Ramallah said that, apart from being baseless, the allegations were aimed at paving the way for a ruthless Hamas attack on Fatah activists in the Gaza Strip. "They were afraid to confront the Israeli army and many Hamas militiamen even ran away during the fighting," he said. "Hamas is now venting its anger and frustration against our Fatah members there." Eyewitnesses said that Hamas militiamen had turned a number of hospitals and schools into temporary detention centers where dozens of Fatah members and supporters were being held on suspicion of helping Israel during the war. The eyewitnesses said that a children's hospital and a mental health center in Gaza City, as well as a number of school buildings in Khan Yunis and Rafah, were among the places that Hamas had turned into "torture centers." A Fatah activist in Gaza City claimed that as many as 80 members of his faction were either shot in the legs or had their hands broken for allegedly defying Hamas's house-arrest orders. "What's happening in the Gaza Strip is a new massacre that is being carried out by Hamas against Fatah," he said. "Where were these [Hamas] cowards when the Israeli army was here?" The activist said that Hamas's security forces had also confiscated cellular phones and computers belonging to thousands of local Fatah members and supporters. Relatives of Abed al-Gharabli, a former Fatah security officer who spent 12 years in Israeli prisons, said he was kidnapped by a group of Hamas militiamen who shot him in both legs after severely torturing him. Ziad Abu Hayeh, one of the commanders of Fatah's armed wing, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, is reported to have lost his sight after Hamas gunmen put out his eyes. According to Fatah activists, Abu Hayeh was kidnapped from his home in Khan Yunis by Hamas militiamen. The Fatah men said that in a number of incidents, Hamas militiamen had kidnapped Fatah activists while they were attending the funerals of people killed during the war. In other cases, activists were detained and shot in the legs after they were spotted smiling in public - an act interpreted by Hamas as an expression of joy over Israel's military offensive. On Saturday night, three brothers from the Subuh family were abducted by Hamas militiamen and taken to the Abdel Aziz Rantisi Mosque in Khan Yunis, where they were shot in the legs, a local journalist told the Post. In a more recent incident, Hamas gunmen shot and killed 80-year-old Hisham Tawfik Najjar after storming his home and beating his four sons - all Fatah activists. Fahmi Za'areer, a Fatah spokesman in the West Bank, revealed that at least 16 Fatah activists had been executed by Hamas in the past few days. He strongly condemned the Hamas clampdown on Fatah and warned against a bloodbath in the Gaza Strip. A leaflet distributed by the Aksa Martyrs Brigades in various parts of the Gaza Strip called on Hamas to "respect the blood of the Palestinian martyrs" and stop pursuing Fatah members. The leaflet said that Hamas had placed hundreds of Fatah men under house arrest in the past 48 hours and was warning that anyone who failed to comply with these orders would be shot.

article from jpost.com

How low can you get really?

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant article from jpost.com How low can you get really?

it wasn't an opinionated quote... it was a factual statement. It doesn't matter if it came from Al Jezeera or Hamas TV, it would have been the same quote about Hamas declaring victory.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss it wasn't an opinionated quote... it was a factual statement. It doesn't matter if it came from Al Jezeera or Hamas TV, it would have been the same quote about Hamas declaring victory.

There's a misunderstanding here.

I wrote "article form jpost.com" in order to describe my OWN quote above

"How low can you get" was referring to Hamas' killings against Fatah people in order to compensate for their own failure in the past 3 weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter It's precisely the fact that it wasn't said for my amusement that makes it so amusing. If it had been intended as a joke it would have been a lackluster one, but the fact that it is "honest expression" makes it far more revealing, and what is revealed is rather droll. All I am saying is that when you play with fire, you accept the risk that you'll be burned. I'm well aware that they believed that they had a good reason for playing with fire--they had to make a choice, risk versus reward. Now they are getting the bad with the good; excuse me if I'm not teary-eyed for them. The right to life certainly does not entail a right to be free of the consequences of one's decisions.

Absolutely, but you should apply that same principle with a single standard now.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The real victims here are the Palestinians who did not vote for Hamas. They made a prudent choice and yet they still must bear the consequences of the unwise choices of their neighbors. It's a shame--another miserable chapter in the squalid history of majoritarian government. But if they die, that blood is on the hands of those neighbors and the government that has led them to their death.

Then do not ignore the history and cause of the conflict, and that is not the majority of Jewish people or Palestinians... the list gets much bigger, and militia organizations are a direct byproduct of historical injustices and the current residue. There is no solution to a problem with out addressing the root cause, which is why this nonsense and senseless bloodshed will perpetuate until it's addressed, as it continues till this day.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter If they are to die, I suggest that they go down fighting against their real enemies--those among them who choose badly. We are all animals, struggling to survive just as our ancestors have for millenia. It's almost certainly true that there are plenty of Americans who deserve to die. But Americans have an advantage--good decisions in the past have created considerable room for error in the present. But nothing lasts forever. If and when Americans bring destruction upon themselves, then--in the only sense that matters--they will "deserve" those consequences as well...

That is the same logic employed by terrorist cells who "target civilian populations" or engage in indiscriminate acts of violence, I hope you can see the problem with it.

I agree that in any democratic system, the participants (i.e. voters) are responsible for the leaders they put in to power and the consequences of policy decisions made. And yes, that can have extreme implications like you said. The problem is, there only way your 'punishment system' could be applied is if you have the ballot for each individual person and only those people be held accountable. At the same time, you are conveniently ignoring Israel's numerous act of state sponsored terrorism, aggression and continued expansion. By your logic, terrorist attacks are perfectly justified on the civilian population. And I strongly disagree with that both in the case of Israelis and Palestinians. So far you've only expressed a strong view with respect to the latter. If you express consistency in that view, I would respect that view yet disagree for obvious reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant There's a misunderstanding here. I wrote "article form jpost.com" in order to describe my OWN quote above "How low can you get" was referring to Hamas' killings against Fatah people in order to compensate for their own failure in the past 3 weeks.

oh. lol.. sorry. my mistake

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z At the same time, you are conveniently ignoring Israel's numerous act of state sponsored terrorism, aggression and continued expansion.

All fabricated by "anti zionist" movements.
No state sponsored terrorism, no nothing coming from Israel.
The whole continued expansion argument is extremely weak. Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt back in the late 70s, and gave Jordan the territory it seeked back in the 90s. Israel also pulled out settlements formed around Gaza. All this despite the fact that israel WON those territories fighting wars for its very survival throughout the years.

The Iranian government, on the other hand, is guilty of all of the above, ie act of state sponsored terrorism, aggression and continued expansion

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles All fabricated by "anti zionist" movements. No state sponsored terrorism, no nothing coming from Israel. The whole continued expansion argument is extremely weak. Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt back in the late 70s, and gave Jordan the territory it seeked back in the 90s. Israel also pulled out settlements formed around Gaza. All this despite the fact that israel WON those territories fighting wars for its very survival throughout the years. The Iranian government, on the other hand, is guilty of all of the above, ie act of state sponsored terrorism, aggression and continued expansion

Utterly ridiculous nonsense.

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles The Iranian government, on the other hand, is guilty of all of the above, ie act of state sponsored terrorism, aggression and continued expansion

Well in saying this, show me proof of any of the above?

Where has it ever wanted to expand? Hell, Iran even gave Bahrain back to the Arabs.

Iran sponsors a terrorist state, says who? The Zionist West? So does that mean America is a state sponsor of terror aswell by supporting Israel?

Show me where Iran has showed aggression towards another state? Unlike, Israel, Iran doesn't kill kids for the love of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Utterly ridiculous nonsense.

Say what you want it's all you true and is based on facts. Your little head just cant get around to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lemonad Iran sponsors a terrorist state, says who? The Zionist West?

So the entire West now is zionist. Interesting choice of words. Guess that includes Australia. Sucks for you.

Oh yeah, and the Arab states see Hezbollah and Hamas as Iranian proxies and as such as Iranian aggression and expansion.

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles Say what you want it's all you true and is based on facts. Your little head just cant get around to it.

More utterly ridiculous nonsense. You don't give a flying fuck about facts. Here's a fact for ya...

quote:

Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. The rights group's report for 2004 says Israeli forces have killed some 700 Palestinians - including 150 children - mostly in unlawful circumstances. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm

I wonder what your next excuse will be for this disgusting slaughter...

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles So the entire West now is zionist. Interesting choice of words. Guess that includes Australia. Sucks for you. Oh yeah, and the Arab states see Hezbollah and Hamas as Iranian proxies and as such as Iranian aggression and expansion.

The Arab states know that if a Non-Arab state comes to power like Iran, then the shift of power is gone to the Iranians. The Arabs even wanted to change the name of the Persian Gulf to Arab Gulf just to regain some kind of power back. They are more afraid of the Iranians than anyone else and want them to lose just so the Arabs have the majority of power in the Middle East.

You still haven't shown me proof, shut your yap till then.

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles All fabricated by "anti zionist" movements. No state sponsored terrorism, no nothing coming from Israel. The whole continued expansion argument is extremely weak. Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt back in the late 70s, and gave Jordan the territory it seeked back in the 90s. Israel also pulled out settlements formed around Gaza. All this despite the fact that israel WON those territories fighting wars for its very survival throughout the years.

sorry mate you cant win territories in a so called defensive war. haha.King david hotel bombings wasn't terrorism. ?
Have you seen some of the charges up against them that are going to be proposed to the ICC?? they break rules.

that vid you posted was alright, informative, but biased nonetheless. it failed to mention the violence on the zionists side, in the form of terrorism at times. the guy kept going on about 67, 67,67...proving some meager point that because hatred existed to the jews before that than fuck the UN and their 67 borders. when he showed the initial proposal of the 50 50 agreement, he called it the measly state next to the palestinian land when the jewish portion consisted of 55 % +. hes not happy with 67? Its fucking gold compared to what was alloted for Israel in the original 50 50 state agreement. the original agreement had Jerusalem completely surrounded by what would have been palestinian terroritory. I think there was an expansion mentallity from the getgo atleast to get Jerusalem. now that they have their holy place they are good and they are walling off what is not theirs.

LOL at the "slaughter of tens'" when 400 children died in three weeks.

If you cant admit the bias in that report, i dont know how you have the balls to rag on al jazeera like you do.

quote:

Arabs: Israel ammo in Gaza had depleted uranium VIENNA, Austria � Arab nations accused Israel on Monday of blasting Gaza with ammunition containing depleted uranium and urged the International Atomic Energy Agency to investigate reports that traces of it had been found in victims of the shelling. In a letter on behalf of Arab ambassadors accredited in Austria, Prince Mansour Al-Saoud, the Saudi Ambassador, expressed "our deep concern regarding the information ... that traces of depleted uranium have been found in Palestinian victims." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090119...ear_israel_gaza

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Land, nothing but the bare minimums get in and that ain't shit. Air, Israel controls the bloody air space. Sea, Israel's navy ain't chillin out there for nothing. I thought you would know this stuff by now. But it's cool, it's not your country being blockaded so you have no idea what's going on.

Didn't I just said "we don't want another Karine A, do we?" ?? You're supposed to click on the text saying "Karine A", you know...

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Point out where I was wrong.........................

I emphasized that a "blockade" is done on ENEMY areas.

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Originally posted by Krypton That's fine, close the damn border. But at least allow them to conduct commerce and have a semblance of an economy.

No, thank you. The West Bank has nice economy - Fatah doesn't want the destruction of Israel (anymore).
I mean do you really think that it's a normal situation to have financial relations with people who elected a party that wants you dead?!
I guess you've never noticed that when Hamas and Fatah (with whom we can somehow make peace) shared a gov't Israel didn't close the borders with Gaza. Despite the rockets and mortar shells. Only when the gov't split (Hamas to Gaza and Fatah to the West Bank) - Israel closed the border with Gaza, where the threatening party of the two is in charge.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You'r more than welcome to provide a counter-argument other than "huh", if you don't want a smart ass comment from yours truly...

Is this what you wanted me to write: "what did you mean, Krypton?"
God...

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi King david hotel bombings wasn't terrorism. ?

It was, but it was of a different kind. Killing people wasn't the goal. Irgun members wanred the hotel occupants way before the bomb exploded.

quote:

For years, former members of Irgun claimed that the British did know about the attack and that warnings had been sent. For years the British denied that this was true. However, in 1979 evidence was presented to the House of Commons in London that Britain had received a credible warning. A former British Army officer based at the hotel admitted that he had heard other officers joking about a threat that had been made to the hotel. In later years, when Menachem Begin had moved into legitimate politics, he claimed that Irgun had sent a warning directly to the hotel but the person who sent the warning was told: "We don�t take orders from the Jews."

http://www.historylearningsite.co.u...david_hotel.htm

quote:

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews." As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...King_David.html

Don't get me wrong - that was terrible. No one should do such things. But again, killing innocents wasn't the goal.

quote:

Originally posted by buitre It was, but it was of a different kind. Killing people wasn't the goal. Irgun members wanred the hotel occupants way before the bomb exploded. http://www.historylearningsite.co.u...david_hotel.htm http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...King_David.html Don't get me wrong - that was terrible. No one should do such things. But again, killing innocents wasn't the goal.

So what, Al Qaeda warned the US that an attack is coming, does that exempt it from qualifying as a terrorist act as well?

Menachem Begin and Irgun was indeed terrorism and they were dissolved into the IDF. you must know that at one point when they were refusing to integrate supply ships were being bombed-there was internal terrorism as well.

Kach and kahanist movements?
Gush Emunim movement?

Jewish terrorism has existed, sprinkle coat it all you want, it doesnt change what has happened.

quote:

Originally posted by buitre Didn't I just said "we don't want another Karine A, do we?" ?? You're supposed to click on the text saying "Karine A", you know...

Yea, I know, the Palestinians aren't allowed to defend themselves, I get it...

quote:

I emphasized that a "blockade" is done on ENEMY areas.

Again, point out where I was wrong...

quote:

No, thank you. The West Bank has nice economy - Fatah doesn't want the destruction of Israel (anymore). I mean do you really think that it's a normal situation to have financial relations with people who elected a party that wants you dead?! I guess you've never noticed that when Hamas and Fatah (with whom we can somehow make peace) shared a gov't Israel didn't close the borders with Gaza. Despite the rockets and mortar shells. Only when the gov't split (Hamas to Gaza and Fatah to the West Bank) - Israel closed the border with Gaza, where the threatening party of the two is in charge.

No they don't. There are over 500 check points and barriers in the West Bank. Additionally, there are roads which are for Israelis only, ON INTERNATIONAL RECOGNIZED PALESTINIAN LAND. If relying on international aid equals a "nice economy" to you, I'd have to question your understanding of what a good economy really is. Israel can close its border. FINE. Haven't you already guessed that I have no problem with that? It's the blockade which I and the international community outside of the USA condemns.

quote:

Is this what you wanted me to write: "what did you mean, Krypton?" God...

I took it to mean sarcasm as your posts are rife with it.

Now that the Israelis and Hamas have mostly stopped fighting each other, the Iranians will surprise no one by attempting to rearm Hamas with better weapons. Hamas refuses to acknowledge this as "smuggling", but whatever it's called, Israel intends to stop it before Hamas can hit Tel Aviv:

quote:

Iran has renewed efforts to supply advanced weaponry to Hamas and the IDF is concerned that the terror group will try to smuggle long-range Fajr missiles into the Gaza Strip. According to the latest intelligence assessments, Iran, which was responsible for writing Hamas's military doctrine, has already launched an internal probe to determine how the plan it had created for Hamas failed to cause more IDF casualties.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

If Hamas succeeds, they can hit Tel Aviv. Let's hope the Iranians have as much success as they did with the Iranian Unit in Gaza this month.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Now that the Israelis and Hamas have mostly stopped fighting each other, the Iranians will surprise no one by attempting to rearm Hamas with better weapons. Hamas refuses to acknowledge this as "smuggling", but whatever it's called, Israel intends to stop it before Hamas can hit Tel Aviv: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull If Hamas succeeds, they can hit Tel Aviv. Let's hope the Iranians have as much success as they did with the Iranian Unit in Gaza this month.

I'm sure America is doing the same thing with rearming Israel right about now.

This Korean guy visited Gaza to see whats left, and he narrates his tale by saying he is 'heartbroken' at the total devastation and anhilation of people and their lives.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTop...I52680720090121

We have new recruits now to fight Israeil war lords and terrorists in Israeil with Weapons of Mass Destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Now that the Israelis and Hamas have mostly stopped fighting each other, the Iranians will surprise no one by attempting to rearm Hamas with better weapons. Hamas refuses to acknowledge this as "smuggling", but whatever it's called, Israel intends to stop it before Hamas can hit Tel Aviv: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull If Hamas succeeds, they can hit Tel Aviv. Let's hope the Iranians have as much success as they did with the Iranian Unit in Gaza this month.

Hmm I guess we should go attack them and kill as many as we can,because we all know that method always works.

It is sad how Obama didnt mention a thing about all those dead people in Gaza today in any of his speaches.Then again he is another American president and has to follow the rules of Washington.

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