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-- Keyed tunes for Harmonic mixers
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A change of key occurs at about +- 6% pitch change.

If you change the pitch upto 3%, the change is not very noticeable, but in most songs, it feels a little more uplifting (i like mixing songs originally at 129-130BPM at 132, and in most cases i believe it sounds better).

Over 3%, the change of key is very noticeable, and not many tracks allow that (and especially vocal tracks).


PS. I have read this whole thread some time ago, it has a lot of information...

has anybody got a good vst plugin ^for harminic mixing; like a real time key shifting plugin?

The problem with that sort of stuff is that you not only change the pitch of the percussion as well, and as a result you can make a driving track sound quite sluggish if you pitch it down due to the change in frequencies.

Ableton does offer this function but I have found if you pitch more than a half a semitone it doesn't actually sound that great.

Cheers
Nem

hmm...just wondering if ne of u guys use the tempo lock function on ur cd decks to adjust the key into what sounds right. This is just something i recently started doing. Listening to track 1's outro b 4 i beat match i adjust the pitch slider to find a key that will sound good i cand tell this by putting both pfl's on. once i like the key i press the tempo lock button and then use the pitch slider to beat match. It works for me imo. Therfore u can rely on ur ear manually to create harmonic mixes, instead of having to classify each of ur tracks into key.

Another reason y i believe vinyl is old fashioned. CD decks enable for bmp to decrease and increase, and it will remain in the same key. FOr example u wont get a chipunk effect if ur bmp is increased heavily.

John O Callahan even says vinyl is over, and the djs of tommorow are all using cd turntables lets face the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi hmm...just wondering if ne of u guys use the tempo lock function on ur cd decks to adjust the key into what sounds right. This is just something i recently started doing. Listening to track 1's outro b 4 i beat match i adjust the pitch slider to find a key that will sound good i cand tell this by putting both pfl's on. once i like the key i press the tempo lock button and then use the pitch slider to beat match. It works for me imo. Therfore u can rely on ur ear manually to create harmonic mixes, instead of having to classify each of ur tracks into key. Another reason y i believe vinyl is old fashioned. CD decks enable for bmp to decrease and increase, and it will remain in the same key. FOr example u wont get a chipunk effect if ur bmp is increased heavily. John O Callahan even says vinyl is over, and the djs of tommorow are all using cd turntables lets face the facts.

I hate to be the one that informs you but there are actually decks out there that do this as well.

You are also quite severly missinformed with regards to your thoughts on working with harmonics.
The only function served by the Master Tempo (CDJ 1000) is to keep the track in it's original key so unless you have get the key right in the first place it wont help you. It will just make a mix sound as rough as it ever would if it's not correctly matched in terms of key.
There is also a sever draw back with this function as when you exceed a certain level on the pitch slider the Master Tempo will start to make things sound muffled or even give the impression of two badly mixed beats on top of each other. Overall sound quality is reduced. So in fact this is not the be all and end all solution to the problem but just a part of it.

By picking a track that you think is in key you are actualy harmonically mixing anyway. But harmonic mixing is designed to help you to know if it can be done and save you faffing about trying to match keys and lets you get on with the art of DJing.


With regards to your points on the life if vinyl I would say that your arguement may be correct but your justification is thin. Whilst John is a great guy (and used to frequent the production forum) this statement alone does not signal the death of vinyl.

If CDs work for you then fine, I use them too but not 100%, about 50-50 at the moment.

A lot of people don't realise as they are probably too young but in my life I have heard people tell me that CDs are going to take over from vinyl for the best part of 20 years and I still haven't seen it happen. Not saying it wont mind you but in all likelyhood we may see some other technology steal the chance from CDs.

I would also take a close look at what some people can do with vinyl before you dismiss it off hand like that.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 A lot of people don't realise as they are probably too young but in my life I have heard people tell me that CDs are going to take over from vinyl for the best part of 20 years and I still haven't seen it happen. Not saying it wont mind you but in all likelyhood we may see some other technology steal the chance from CDs.

Im not as old as you nem but I agree- Ive been hearing it for the last 7 or so yrs- yet it still hasnt happened.
A lot of people on this forum fail to remember the US' biggest market- Hip Hop and urban stuff.....which is for the most part still vinyl

This business about adjusting the pitch till you find a compatable key is dodgy. Firstly, not many people can do that easily, but more importantly, it will only work if you have a key that is close to the track your mixing out of. If its say Am outro and a Fm intro, then your gonna have to adjust the Fm track way too much (about 24% to get to Am). Not good! If you know the key before hand... no pain involved then!
I think you can only lock the original key of a track on CDJs can't you?? Not sure. Don't think you can adjust then lock it?
Key Lock on vinyl turntables is not that good though. Excellent on CDJs. I have stanton st150, and its ok, and I'm told that its better than Numark locking system.

FFS! Just typed all this out...then it asked me to log in before I posted... now it is gone! Here we go again.

Anyone notice any mistakes, please let me know

Tiesto: Walking on clouds 137BPM Bm
Nyana 137BPM Cm
Forever Today 137BPM F#
Love Comes Again 137BPM Gm
In My Memory (Airwave Mix) 135BPM Gm
(V-One Mix) 135BPM Ebm
Adagio (Original) 141BPM Ebm/Bbm
(FredBaker) 140BPM Bbm
(Danjo & Styles) 142BPM Bbm
(Phynn) 140BPM Bbm

PvD: Nothing But You (Club Mix) 140BPM Ebm
(Vandit) 140BPM Ebm
(Cirrus) 131BPM Ebm

LiKwon: Point Zero '05 (Ag & Nel Mix) 140BPM Bm
(Leama & Moor) 131BPM Bm

Whiteroom: Someday (Instr.) 136BPM Gm
(Enmass) 142BPM Gm
(Vocal) 136BPM Gm

Airwave: LadyBlue (Orig) 131BPM Gm
(Flight 1992) 133BPM Gm

Signalrunners: 3000 Miles. 132BPM EbM
(Probspot Mix) 132BPM Fm

Solarstone: 7 Cities (Atlantis) 133BPM CM
(V-One) 136BPM CM

K&P: Summerdream (Whiteroom) 132BPM Bbm
(Stoner) 138BPM Bbm
(Orig) 138BPM Bbm

Gouryella: Wallhalla 134BPM BM
(Rising Star) 138BPM Bm

Ferry Corsten: Sweet Sorrow (Thrillseeker) 139BPM Cm
(Album Mix) 138BPM Cm

Motorcycle: As The rush comes (Gab & Dred Mix) 136BPM Bm
(Coldharbour) 128BPM Bm

Deep Dish: Say Hello (Pvd) 139BPM Dm

Oceanlab: Satelite (orig) 140BPM Am
(Coldharbour) 132BPM Am

Locust: Aerospace (Probspot Mix) 130BPM Abm

Perasma: Swing 2 Harmony (Original) 126Bpm Fm

Agnelli & Nelson: Everyday 2002 (Orig) 136BPM Dm
(Chillout) 91BPM (??) Dm
(Alex Gold Mix) 136BPM Gm
(Radio Vocal) 134BPM Gm/Dm

Fragma: Toca Me (In Petto Remix) 138BPM Am

Energy 52: Cafe Del Mar '98 (3'n 1) 132BPM Cm

Markus Schulz: Without You Near (Coldharbour) 134BPM Fm
(Gab & Dred Mix) 133BPM Fm

*Phew*

Nice job.

Looks right for the most part.
Haven't got the chance to check at the moment but I have a sneaky feeling that Cafe Del Mar is in a different key (Fm but that could be my brain overloading). Same with Sublime (But different key) although I could be imagining it. I will update when I get home and can tell you for sure.

Cheers
Nem

Ferry Corsten - Sublime Gm (Both mixes)
Energy 52 - Cafe Del Mar three in one mix (Fm)
Tiesto - Adagio for Strings (D#m)
Tiesto - Love Comes Again (Cm)


Vinyls pitched at 0.
If you are using MP3 the original ripper might have pitched them up prior to encoding.

Cheers
Nem

Cheers Nem.

No, I used vinyl, pitched at 0%, and.. haha... a 40 year old metronome to do the BPMing. I'm pretty sure some of those are a little way out (Today I was pitching a tune up that I should have been pitching down to beatmatch it... if you get me)

With regards Adagio for strings being a D#m... surely that's the same as an Ebm? Or am I forgetting the importance of the full chord of keys fitting songs... I dunno...

By the way, I started keying my songs yesturday, and had my first attempt at a 'harmonic' mix today, sooo much better. Nice to learn all this in my early mixing days

quote:

Originally posted by burner69 With regards Adagio for strings being a D#m... surely that's the same as an Ebm? Or am I forgetting the importance of the full chord of keys fitting songs... I dunno...

Doh!
Yes in principle it's the same thing, sorry should have been paying attention. Although I do believe the correct name for the original original is Barber's Adagio for strings in D# minor.

I'm not one for spliting hairs and either key you classify the track in it still brings exactly the same result.

Cheers
Nem

For all of you who are open to new ways of mixing, There's the possibility to mix with Traktor DJ Studio, it offers a nearly perfect possibility to change tempo and key separately with the phase vocoder algoritm. That's the way i'm working now. For all vinyl-junkies here it offers also a possibility to add final scratch.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Subnautic For all of you who are open to new ways of mixing, There's the possibility to mix with Traktor DJ Studio, it offers a nearly perfect possibility to change tempo and key separately with the phase vocoder algoritm. That's the way i'm working now. For all vinyl-junkies here it offers also a possibility to add final scratch.

True,

Ableton does this too.

But I have found that it's all well and good as long as you don't have to pitch the key of a record down. The draw back with this type of mixing is that I find that if you mess around with the original key too much you change the feel of the percussion, and if it is changed down you can make energy filled tracks sound a little sluggish.

Cheers
Nem

true.
i normally mix between + 2/- 3 semitones change of the original key,
not more because it sounds like crap then. So you have to look after tracks that are not that different.when you have an a-key tune and a f- key tune (4 semitones diff), you have to put a tune between that is g, so that there is'nt a such a big difference anymore.
i now change the key only for the fades, after they are done, i change the key again into it's original. (that's only possible if you know when to change it, you should place the change of key at the right place; at the biginning of phrase or similar)

What key is Ferry Corsten - Galaxia in? I searched through this forum didn't find anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Vinyls pitched at 0. If you are using MP3 the original ripper might have pitched them up prior to encoding.

word of the day Don't rely on these keys working on some cheap skanky rips. Although I sure as hell hope that the more serious digital stores can be trusted when it comes to things like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio Is that in order of Jump in energy or the ones that sounds better. This Got me confused Let's Say I have a tune. and the Key is "E", now I don't know if it's sharp, minor , flat or major. If I go to camelot Sound and let's say I want to mix a good sounding +3 tunes I will see 12B (E Major) +3 = 3B (D-Flat Major) 5B (E-Flat Major) +3 = 8B (C-Major) 2A (E-Flat Minor) +3 = 5A (C-Minor) 9A (E minor) +3 = 12A (D-Flat Minor) I noticed there are 2 Main Keys here (D) & (C). No Let's Assume that the real Key of the tune is (E-Minor), All the results posted above will have a good sound? I have four options here but If I choose 5A (C-Minor), that would actually be a +8, and I Haven't heard that +8 is a good sounding mix. Can I mix from E-Minor into D-Flat Major, or into C-Major, or Viceversa from Major to minor? is this good or bad osunding, increasding or decreasing energy? Thank You

Can someone help me here?

thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio ohh Another Question, I know that the tunes change their key with the pitch change at about 3% I think, I'm not sure. Let's assume I have a track at 135 BPM (A-Flat Minor)1A, and at 139 BPM it reaches +3%, that would make the tune be (E-Flat Minor) 2A?, and at 131 BPM it reaches -3%, That would make the tune be (D-Flat Minor) 12A? Also I noticed every change in pitch will modify the key of the track so IF I have a tune (A-Flat Minor) 1A at 2.50 %, it would be better to assume that tune is mor enear to be a 2A rather than a 1A? Thanks Again.

Also here.
Thanks =)

quote:

Originally posted by BshidoHEAT What key is Ferry Corsten - Galaxia in? I searched through this forum didn't find anything.

I'd still like to know

off mixshare.com


moonman - galaxia (off the very best of ferry corsten album)

Key F

much apperciated sir
thanks

Pioneer DJM-800 Corrects Key Offset

The 800 pound gorilla in the DJ equipment industry, Pioneer, has just jumped on the harmonic mixing bandwagon. This is their announcement dated January 24, 2006:

PIONEER�S DJM-800 IS WORLD�S FIRST 96KHZ/24 BIT MIXER THAT CAN HARMONICALLY MIX AND REMIX USING SOUND COLOR EFFECTS

ANAHEIM (January 19, 2006) � The DJM-800 mixer introduced at NAMM today by Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. gives professional DJs the tool they need to expand their musical horizon, with capabilities for mixing records, remixing, producing and performing. Pioneer�s DJ mixers have a reputation for providing high quality audio and reliability. The new DJM-800 incorporates features recommended by many professional DJs and club engineers, raising the bar on sound fidelity and ease of mixer operation. Most important are its high quality 96kHz/24 bit sampling and harmonic mixing capabilities.

High Quality Audio
The analog signal from the player passes through the shortest signal route, first digitized at 96kHz / 24bit through a pro A/D converter where it reaches the digital mixing stage with the best sound possible. The mixing is carried out by 32bit DSP with minimal deterioration of sound quality. A highly rigid chassis minimizes unnecessary vibration, which could adversely affect sound quality. The mixer also incorporates a dual-shield structure for eliminating entry of digital noise and a high performance power supply for noise-free power.

Sound Color Effects For A New Style of DJ Mixing
The world�s first DJ mixer with Auto Harmonic Tuning detects the key of song and automatically corrects it to the closest true key. In music theory terms, when a DJ raises the pitch of a song in the key of C by three percent, the song is no longer in the key of C, but somewhere between C and C sharp. This makes it impossible to perform a perfect harmonic mix. Pioneer�s new Harmonic Tuning feature takes the key of the source audio and adjusts the pitch until it is that of a standard note.

Of course a DJ still has to know some basics about music, such as which keys match, in order to pull off an acoustically perfect harmonic mix. World class DJs currently spend thousands of hours learning the keys of their music and re-mastering their library to be in �perfect pitch�. Now the DJM-800 makes it easier to perform a �Harmonic Mix�.

�As the art of DJ mixing becomes more and more sophisticated, Pioneer raises the level of its equipment to provide the tools needed by today�s professionals,� said Karl Detken, director of product planning for Pro DJ products at Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc.

Effects
The DJM-800 incorporates a highpass / lowpass filter, notch filter and bit crusher effect for all channels. In conjunction with the additional Beat Effects, 50 combinations of effects are possible.

-more-


Pioneer Introduces DJM-800 Mixer at NAMM / pg. 2

Higher quality effects at 24bits make for a cleaner sounding remix. The effects automatically detect the BPM of the music and sync to the beats. DJM-800 includes some familiar effects, plus some new ones: Echo, Delay, Reverse Delay, Pan, Transform, Filter, Flanger, Phaser, Reverb, Robot, Chorus, Roll and Reverse Roll.

Digital Input/Output terminals
Digital inputs and outputs allow for connection with other digital-capable equipment for a fully digital chain, without degradation of sound quality. The DJM-800 is not only ideal for the club professional but also great in a recording studio environment where high fidelity sound is required. Input frequencies of 44.1/48/96kHz are compatible; output frequency is selectable between 48/96kHz.

Fully Assignable MIDI function
There are a total of 61 assignable controls. The MIDI signal can be sent from almost all knobs and switches on the surface of the DJM-800 to external midi equipment. Since the mixer can send out many MIDI signals, it can be used as a flexible interface to music software or hardware such as Ableton Live or EDIROL V-4 Video Mixer.

Rotary Volume Knobs Available (optional)
The main volume fader knobs can be replaced with rotary volume knobs (DJC-800RV), which are especially valuable for extended mixing providing more subtlety and precision.

Numerous other features make the DJM-800 ideal for a sophisticated DJ.

� Cross Fader Assign allows the DJ to assign each channel�s input to the cross fader. � Fader Curve Adjust allows the user to change the cross fader/channel fader curve.
� When connected to a Pioneer CDJ player, the Fader Start allows
playback to be started by simply sliding the cross fader or channel fader.
� A built-in three-band equalizer enables level control within a �26dB to +6dB range for high, mid, low bands, respectively.
� The Talk Over feature automatically lowers track volume so an MC can talk over the track.
� The Mic Signal Cut eliminates the microphone sound output to the booth monitor to prevent feedback.
� The DJ can check the peak level of the input audio for each channel
and the master.

The DJM-800 will be available late February 2006 for a manufacturer�s
suggested retail price of $1,699.

Pioneer offers a complete line of Pro DJ Equipment through its Pro Audio Group. Its DJM series of mixers have become an industry standard at clubs, studios, mobile rigs and homes around the world, known for their high quality sound and reliability. For more information, visit www.PioneerProDj.com.

Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. is headquartered in Long Beach, Calif. and its U.S. Web address is www.pioneerelectronics.com. Its parent company, Pioneer Corporation, is a leader in optical disc technology and a preeminent manufacturer of high-performance audio, video, computer equipment for the home, car and business markets. The company, founded in Tokyo in 1938, focuses on four core business domains including DVD, display technologies, Digital Network Entertainment� and components.




Specifications

Input Terminal CD/LINE x 5 (RCA)
PHONO x 3 (RCA)
DIGITAL IN x 4 (COAXIAL S/PDIF)
MIC x 2 (XLR / �� combo x 1, �� x 1)

Output Terminal MASTER OUT x 2 (RCA x 1, XLR x 1)
BOOTH OUT x 1 (��)
　　　　　　　 HEADPHONE MONITOR OUT x 1 (TOP PANEL ��)
　　　　　　　　　　 REC OUT x 1 (RCA)
DIGITAL OUT x 1 (COAXIAL S/PDIF)

Other Terminal SEND x 1 (��)
RETURN x 1 (��)
MIDI OUT x 1 (5pin DIN)
CONTROL x 4 (3.5mm MINI JACK)

Frequency Response 20Hz - 20kHz

Total Harmonic Distortion 0.005% or less

Signal-to-Noise Ratio 105dB (line)

Head Room 19dB

Power Requirements AC 120V (60Hz)

Power Consumption 32W

Dimensions 12.6� (W) x 15� (D) x 4.25� (H) // 320 (W) x
381(D) x 108 (H) mm

Weight 17.6 lbs // 8 kg

Looks pretty cool to be honest. But then again, they'r turning the job of a pro DJ into a child's play. First the beat counters, now the key adjusting?
Come on now!

Next is the automatic cue point, the automatic cross fade and then the automatic arrogant personality.
Soon to come the "look mum, no hands" approach.

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