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quote:

Originally posted by partyhopper finally, Mets are actually hitting! At last, Beltran got hit first home run in a non-Pedro game! let's hope they hold on to their 5-3 lead over the A's

arent they like in last place ?

Koufax, guys!! KOUFAX!!!

walter johnson!!!!

Pedro Martinez' 7 DOMINATING years are better than Sandy Koufax' 5 DOMINATING years AND Pedro's best season (2000) is the greatest single season pitching effort since 1880.

Ted Williams or Barry Bonds in LF... does it really make a difference? Tough choice though. I went with Williams for no reason other than he came to mind first.

quote:

Originally posted by trunks1022 walter johnson!!!!

big train's definitely the greatest of all time, but if i just have one game, i want koufax on the mound...

quote:

Originally posted by Highmay big train's definitely the greatest of all time, but if i just have one game, i want koufax on the mound...

Meh... I say Petey. And I also say that, as of now, Pedro's had the best career of 'em all. That could change, obviously, as Pedro has at least 4 more years left...

Just for fun, here are the 5 best seasons from Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, and Pedro Martinez (based on ERA+ which is park and league and everything adjusted). I'll list these in order of lowest ERA+ to highest ERA+. So, first... the year, the player's ERA in orange, the league ERA that year in red, and the player's ERA+ )with 100 being average in blue:

Walter Johnson

1915: 1.55 2.96 191
1918: 1.27 2.71 214
1919: 1.41 3.19 214
1912: 1.39 3.34 240
1913: 1.14 2.96 259


Sandy Koufax

1962: 2.54 3.63 143
1965: 2.04 3.26 160
1963: 1.88 3.02 161
1964: 1.74 3.25 187
1966: 1.73 3.28 190


Pedro Martinez

2002: 2.26 4.42 196
2003: 2.22 4.71 212
1997: 1.90 4.21 221
1999: 2.07 5.07 245
2000: 1.74 4.97 285 <<< Highest ERA+ since 1880.

Yes. I have a lot of time on my hands. And I'm bored. And I LOVE looking and comparing stats. Now...

Going by this, it's pretty clear that Pedro is a cut above the other two. Both Koufax and Johnson were awesome pitchers. No doubt about that. But they played during a time in which pitching was clearly better than the hitting.

In Johnson's 5 best years, the league ERA averaged at 3.03.
In Koufax' 5 best years, the league ERA averaged at 3.28.

Pedro, on the other hand, played (plays) in an era where offense is clearly dominant. Better technology, smaller ballparks, and, to a lesser extent, steroids have all added to the offensive explosion of the late 80's through now. So...

In Pedro's 5 best years, the league ERA averaged at 4.67. That is a run and a half higher than Johnson and a run and some change higher than Koufax.

Another factor would b ball park size. Johnson played in the era of the Polo Grounds and Griffith's Stadium. Koufax played in Dodger's Stadium. Pedro... in Fenway Park.

Grifith's Stadium dimensions:

Left Field = 424 Feet in 1921.
Center Field = 421 Feet. (strange... )
Right Field = 326 Feet in 1921.

Dodger Stadium dimensions:

Left Field = 330.
Center Field = 410 in 1962.
Right Field = 330.

Fenway Park dimensions:

Left Field = 310.
Center Field = 390.
Right Field = 302.

So... as you can see, Pedro was playing in a terrible park for pitchers. Koufax was playing in a neutral (by today's standards. back then, that was probably a tremendous pitcher's park) stadium. Johnson... well... those numbers speak for themselves.

I guess I'm done for now. I just love comparing Pedro's numbers to past legends. When you do, and look at them without any bias (hard for most to do because you either ADORE or DESPISE him), you see that he really is one of (if not the hands down greatest) the best pitchers of all time.

If you actually took the time to read all this, I'm glad. It didn't take me that long to do, but I just like to see people actually reading this shit that I go crazy on sometimes.

The stats all came from http://www.baseball-reference.com/ and the ballpark dimensions came from http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/index.htm .

Enjoy.

And... in case anyone is curious, Roger Clemens' and Randy Johnson's top 5 ERA+:

Clemens:

175
176
177
211
226

Johnson:

171
184
190
196
198

7 Cy Youngs and 5 Cy Youngs. How many does Pedro have?

330+ wins for Roger Clemens. From 1986 - now, Roger has been a dominant pitcher. It's about longevity baby!

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X 7 Cy Youngs and 5 Cy Youngs. How many does Pedro have? 330+ wins for Roger Clemens. From 1986 - now, Roger has been a dominant pitcher. It's about longevity baby!

I guess you read my whole post, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X 7 Cy Youngs and 5 Cy Youngs. How many does Pedro have? 330+ wins for Roger Clemens. From 1986 - now, Roger has been a dominant pitcher. It's about longevity baby!

not from 1993-1996...he just didn't really care at that point

I'm not denying that Clemens is a great pitcher. He is. But in terms of pure domination, I really don't think there's any denying that Pedro is numero uno. Look at thos freaking numbers.

And wins don't really mean much to me in rating pitchers. Again, they obviously mean SOMETHING, but not much. Wins is VERY dependent on the offense that your team puts on the field. As evidenced by Eric Milton and Randy Johnson last year, the player with the better record is usually not the best pitcher.

Clemens has put up 8 ERAs of 3.50 runs or more. And 4 of those were 4.00 or more.

Pedro has put up an ERA of 3.50 runs or more 3 times. And he has never put up an ERA of over 4.

Bleh. It's too early and I'm not in the mood to compare. In any case, Pedro is better.

Nolan Ryan Case Point Game Set Match

For dominance, I'll give you Nolan Ryan just because he has SEVEN no-hitters. That's just sick! But his lifetime stats aren't there for being the best pitcher.

I really wasn't debating Pedro vs. anybody for being the best pitcher. I was saying who was the most ideal. And Pedro is not durable enough for me if I had to build my ideal team. And he invites midgets into the clubhouse, I don't need that.

I need to look at the stats more closely....but I have to get back to work.

Ill Take David Wells @ Yankee Stadium

quote:

Originally posted by kid nyce Nolan Ryan Case Point Game Set Match

Nolan Ryan... ?

His walk total is terrible... AND he lost nearly 300 games (I know I dont like to use this, but this is overwhelming). I wouldn't even put him in the top 10.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X For dominance, I'll give you Nolan Ryan just because he has SEVEN no-hitters. That's just sick! But his lifetime stats aren't there for being the best pitcher. I really wasn't debating Pedro vs. anybody for being the best pitcher. I was saying who was the most ideal. And Pedro is not durable enough for me if I had to build my ideal team. And he invites midgets into the clubhouse, I don't need that. I need to look at the stats more closely....but I have to get back to work.

Just go back a page and read my post, bitch.

quote:

Originally posted by Shamez214 Just go back a page and read my post, bitch.

Hence... "I need to look at the stats more closely" My job is to analyze numbers and I love sports stats too but I just didn't have 30 minutes to read through that bible yet. I was getting there crumbsnatcher. I don't disagree with the numbers!

I guess the 330+ wins demonstrates longevity and durability of making enough quality starts. As you mentioned, Pedro has to keep it up and maybe he does, but he hasn't reached that stage yet.

Why didn't you breakdown all the first baseman that are better than Don Mattingly? You could pull stats out of your arse all day long about others being better (and I'm sure I couldn't say otherwise) but what I'm going for is when they were in their prime, there's no one I would have rather had. Gold gloves, RBI's, gap hitter, clutch, team leader, intangibles.

Nolan Ryan was the most dominant when he was on but he was off too much.

n00bs...

satchel paige probably would've owned everybody...

quote:

Originally posted by trunks1022 n00bs... satchel paige probably would've owned everybody...

As would Josh Gibson have owned The Babe, The Splinter, and the Bonds.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X Hence... "I need to look at the stats more closely" My job is to analyze numbers and I love sports stats too but I just didn't have 30 minutes to read through that bible yet. I was getting there crumbsnatcher. I don't disagree with the numbers! I guess the 330+ wins demonstrates longevity and durability of making enough quality starts. As you mentioned, Pedro has to keep it up and maybe he does, but he hasn't reached that stage yet. Why didn't you breakdown all the first baseman that are better than Don Mattingly? You could pull stats out of your arse all day long about others being better (and I'm sure I couldn't say otherwise) but what I'm going for is when they were in their prime, there's no one I would have rather had. Gold gloves, RBI's, gap hitter, clutch, team leader, intangibles. Nolan Ryan was the most dominant when he was on but he was off too much.

I didn't do the first basemen because I don't care about them. Pitching stats are much easier to analyze than hitting stats. Plus, I already know so much about Pedro... so it made it much easier to do.

The 330 of Clemens does mean something. But I think ERA and the related stats are much more important in judging a pitcher's performance.

Pedro's K/9: 10.39
Clemens' K/9: 8.65

Pedro's WHIP: 1.01
Clemens' WHIP: 1.17

Pedro's K/BB ratio: 4.37
Clemens' K/BB ratio: 2.97

Pedro's OPS Against: .588
Clemens' OPS Against: .630

(Just a little interesting stat I saw...)
Pedro's pitches per start: 105.8
Clemens' pitches per start: 101.8

And... for the Wins and Losses crew out there...

Pedro's Winning %: .711
Clemens' Winning %: .655


Now, Clemens does have loads more innings and games played than Pedro which does count for something. But I wonder if at the same point Pdero is at, Clemens' was better, the same, or worse... Maybe if I get bored this weekend, I'll dabble some more with these too.

Just more stuff for you to read Brian.

And who you calling crumbsnatcher... ? Bitch ass...

What about the midget? If I have Pedro on my dream team, do I have to manage with a circus running around?

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X What about the midget? If I have Pedro on my dream team, do I have to manage with a circus running around?

Nelson is no longer associated with Pedro... unfortunately. Pedro won the WS, that was all he was needed for.

Jeter gets the first grand slam in his career!

Meanwhile, after looking so good just 2 weeks ago, the Mets simply suck

I haven't watch a Mets game in a week. They are such a streaky offense. Everyone of the hitters goes through 2 week long slumps...

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