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-- Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill 192
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Originally posted by Magnetonium Bwahahahahahahah ... this is too funny. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7836660.stm Retarded. Especially when its obvious for Israel of the nature of Hamas, yet it still uses disproportionate force to kill over 350 children and 100 women (innocent civilians), along with other people. And achieved little if anything. I doubt that Hamas took a bit hit. Now that Israel is withdrawing, Hamas is retaking its lost positions! Expect more of this in the future: http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20...=214&ar=1468wmv Graduation Ceremony in Hamas Kindergarten VIDEO

Palestinian propoganda at it's best - like they had ANY pull in Israel's decision to leave...

We all know Hamas is going to simply fill in the gaps and start firing their rockets again...

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer It is sad how Obama didnt mention a thing about all those dead people in Gaza today in any of his speaches.Then again he is another American president and has to follow the rules of Washington.

Yea because you know, that's exactly wtf people want to hear during a presidential inauguration!

/id-10-t

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yea because you know, that's exactly wtf people want to hear during a presidential inauguration! /id-10-t

yeah you are right lets pretend nobody died in Gaza and celebrate their death.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yea because you know, that's exactly wtf people want to hear during a presidential inauguration! /id-10-t

Obama is a pussy and a politician, he did talk about economy, its bad, people dont want to hear about it, but still he talked about it.

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer yeah you are right lets pretend nobody died in Gaza and celebrate their death.

Riiiight, and how many Americans does that conflict involve again? Oh yea, NONE.

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Originally posted by Krypton Yea, I know, the Palestinians aren't allowed to defend themselves, I get it...

They are, but history teaches us that whenever they've had weapons (excluding Fatah recently) they used most of them, most of the time to attack Israel, not "defend" themselves from Israel's retaliation.

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Originally posted by Krypton Again, point out where I was wrong...

Wow. Where the hell did I say you were wrong? You're definition of "blockade" wasn't accurate enough.

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Originally posted by Krypton No they don't. There are over 500 check points and barriers in the West Bank.

I take it your interest in the Middle East is of recent years? Have you forgotten the suicide bombers and shooting at Israelis in the early 2000s? That's why the check points / barriers exist.
Besides, when you cross the border into Mexico, aren'y you going through check points? It's a part of the border.

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Originally posted by Krypton Additionally, there are roads which are for Israelis only, ON INTERNATIONAL RECOGNIZED PALESTINIAN LAND.

I'd be glad if you'd show me which roads.

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Originally posted by Krypton If relying on international aid equals a "nice economy" to you, I'd have to question your understanding of what a good economy really is.

Oh, and Israel isn't receiving financial aid? What about Jordan? Egypt as you said earlier, even Iraq?
With all the money the Palestinian Authority has received in recent years they could've establish a small Dubai or Abu Dhabi by now. Or at least a state similar to Israel.

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Originally posted by Krypton Israel can close its border. FINE. Haven't you already guessed that I have no problem with that? It's the blockade which I and the international community outside of the USA condemns.

When Hamas will not threaten Israel's existence - I will protest myself against any kind of "blockade" on Gaza.

Anyway, you still didn't answer my question: do you think that it's normal to have financial relations with people who elected a party that wants you dead? (i.e. Gaza)

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi So what, Al Qaeda warned the US that an attack is coming, does that exempt it from qualifying as a terrorist act as well?

Where, the, hell, did I say that wasn't terrorism?
Terrorism's purpose is to scare you, make you feel fear. And what Irgun members have done is terrorism. And I'm against it.
But Al Qaeda's goal was to kill as many Americans as possible, while Irgun's goal wasn't. They called the hotel and told its occupants to leave, as you may or may not have read in the articles I posted earlier. Al Qaeda didn't call and said "we're going to blow up the Twin Towers". That's a noteworthy difference.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi Menachem Begin and Irgun was indeed terrorism and they were dissolved into the IDF. you must know that at one point when they were refusing to integrate supply ships were being bombed-there was internal terrorism as well.

Yes I know all about it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi Kach and kahanist movements? Gush Emunim movement? Jewish terrorism has existed, sprinkle coat it all you want, it doesnt change what has happened.

I know. Read my first paragraph, that was my point.

From yesterday:

quote:

Hamas launches mortar shells January 20, 2009 JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Hamas launched eight mortar shells from central Gaza, but they all landed in Palestinian areas. The Israeli Air Force struck back following the Tuesday afternoon attack, destroying a rocket launcher, according to reports. The attack was a violation of the Hamas cease-fire after two days of calm. The failed attack followed two incidents of Palestinian gunmen firing on Israeli troops leaving Gaza, the first violations of the cease-fire that began in the early hours of Jan. 18 after Israel's unilateral declaration.

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01...s-mortar-shells

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Originally posted by buitre They are, but history teaches us that whenever they've had weapons (excluding Fatah recently) they used most of them, most of the time to attack Israel, not "defend" themselves from Israel's retaliation.

Attack Israel, or resist Israeli occupation?

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Wow. Where the hell did I say you were wrong? You're definition of "blockade" wasn't accurate enough.

So in other words, I wasn't wrong and you'r just needlessly nitpicking...

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I take it your interest in the Middle East is of recent years? Have you forgotten the suicide bombers and shooting at Israelis in the early 2000s? That's why the check points / barriers exist. Besides, when you cross the border into Mexico, aren'y you going through check points? It's a part of the border.

All your government is doing is reacting to Palestinian resistance and uprisings. They refuse to address the root problem which is occupation. As for the horrible comparison of the US/Mexico border. The United States does not have "Americans only" zones, and checkpoints all through Mexico controlled by the Americans. America actually respects Mexican sovereignty unlike Israel with Palestine.

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I'd be glad if you'd show me which roads.

No problem. The bold grey lines are "Israeli only" roads which link all of the illegal Israeli settlements to Israel and each other.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...stbankjan06.jpg

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Oh, and Israel isn't receiving financial aid? What about Jordan? Egypt as you said earlier, even Iraq? With all the money the Palestinian Authority has received in recent years they could've establish a small Dubai or Abu Dhabi by now. Or at least a state similar to Israel.

LOL, Dubai and Abu Dhabi aren't being occupied by a foreign army, nor are they being colonized by foreign settlers who drive out the natives.

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When Hamas will not threaten Israel's existence - I will protest myself against any kind of "blockade" on Gaza.

Israeli actions give Hamas all the pretext they need to threaten your existance. But the fact of the matter is. They can't truly threaten your existance. Your country is unimaginably stronger than Hamas ever will be.

quote:

Anyway, you still didn't answer my question: do you think that it's normal to have financial relations with people who elected a party that wants you dead? (i.e. Gaza)

I did answer your question. You don't want your country to have any relations with Palestine? FINE. But at least allow them to conduct commerce like any other civilized nation.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Riiiight, and how many Americans does that conflict involve again? Oh yea, NONE.

It actually does since it is their money being spent towards Israel's military and that military is responsible for all the killings in Gaza.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/ Israel's objectives from the war on Gaza were set long before its launch: to remove the Hamas movement and government, achieve the reinstallation of the Fatah leader, Mahmoud Abbas, in Gaza, and end the armed resistance. Two other objectives were not announced. First, restore the Israeli public's wavering confidence in its armed forces after its defeat by Hezbollah in 2006. Second, boost the coalition government in the coming elections. Accordingly, we declare that Israel lost, and lost decisively. What did it achieve? The killing of large numbers of civilians, children and women, and the destruction of homes, ministry buildings and other infrastructure with the most advanced US weapons and other internationally banned chemical and phosphorous elements. Almost 2,000 children were killed and injured in desperate pursuit of political goals. Many international organisations called these attacks war crimes, yet barely a word of denunciation was uttered by any western leader. What message does the EU mean to send Palestinians by its shameful silence on these crimes, when it speaks incessantly on human rights? If anything, the last three weeks, and previous 18 months, have proved that the Palestinians can never be broken by either starvation, economic strangulation or brutal attack. European leaders have only one option: to recognise the outcome of a democratic process they had called for and supported. The aggression failed to undermine or weaken the Hamas-led government, or turn Palestinians against Hamas. If anything, public support is stronger than ever in Palestine and worldwide. Hamas's military capabilities have not been hurt, either. This explains Israel scurrying to sign such a strange agreement with the US to stop arms reaching Hamas. It is doomed to fail. As the former Israeli chief of staff Moshe Ya'alon and Binyamin Netanyahu agreed, Israeli forces failed to achieve their objectives. Why is Israel allowed a continuous flow of the most lethal arms, including banned weapons, while national resistance movements are denied the means of defence? International laws permit occupied nations to resist their occupiers, and that is a right we aim to utilise to the full. Israel must accept the reality that it is incapable of breaking the Palestinian resistance. Similarly, Europe must accept that bringing back Abbas on an Israeli tank is not an option. Nor are attempts to win by "diplomacy" what the might of the Israeli military failed to secure by force. To state that all aid for Gaza reconstruction must go through the illegal government of Salam Fayyad suggests there is no end to some parties' exploitation of Palestinians. We will never cease to pursue national unity, but we will never allow it to be attained by compromising Palestinian rights. And to President Obama we say: the wave of hope that met your election was heavily dampened by your silence on the Gaza massacre. This was compounded by your pre-election statement siding with the Israeli settlers of Sderot. You would do well to know the history of the places of which you speak. Sderot, which may be known to some as an Israeli town, lies on the ruins of Najd, a Palestinian village ransacked in May 1948 by Zionist terrorist gangs. Villagers were forced from their beds and homes with nothing but the clothes they were wearing, rendering them refugees for the next 61 years. That is the story of Sderot. It is never a good start to get your tyrant and victims mixed up, but there is still room for a revival of passionate optimism. Only if you decide to fairly address the issue of the 6 million Palestinian refugees and the ending of occupation of Palestinian lands, including Jerusalem, will you be able to start a new relationship with the Muslim world.

i wasn't aware that Sderot was originally Palestinian, i guess that shows how much history has been rewritten by zionist interests.

The Arabs lost the war of 1948. So there's no revisionist history where Sderot is concerned.
Are the Turks going to give Istanbul back to the Romans/Catholics? It used to be known as Constantinople. It had another name before that.
And you, tathi, writing from Australia. What territories have you given back to the Aborigines? Were Sydney or Melbourne once settled by anyone else?
And what of Texas here in the US? Who should it be given back to? Mexico? Spain? One of the numerous native American tribes?

Lastly, Hong Kong seemed to do quite well despite being occupied by the British. This wasnt ages ago but rather up until 1997. So say what you will about Gaza but that strip could have been a lot more successful if its leaders and common people stopped focusing all their energy on suicide bombs and rocket attacks.

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Originally posted by Krypton Attack Israel, or resist Israeli occupation?

Excuse me for the language, but resist fucking what? We're talking about Gaza here. Have you seen any Israelis in Gaza for the last 3 fucking years?

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Originally posted by Krypton So in other words, I wasn't wrong and you'r just needlessly nitpicking...

You think like a 5 year old kid, I can't believe it ...
I've never said you were wrong, so to speak. Your definition wasn't accurate enough. Get over it.

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Originally posted by Krypton All your government is doing is reacting to Palestinian resistance and uprisings. They refuse to address the root problem which is occupation.

Let me remind you, again, that we're talking about Gaza here. Hamas don't give a shit about Fatah and the West Bank, where Fatah's in charge.

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Originally posted by Krypton As for the horrible comparison of the US/Mexico border. The United States does not have "Americans only" zones, and checkpoints all through Mexico controlled by the Americans. America actually respects Mexican sovereignty unlike Israel with Palestine.

Two words: suicide bombers. I already explained that.

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Originally posted by Krypton No problem. The bold grey lines are "Israeli only" roads which link all of the illegal Israeli settlements to Israel and each other. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...stbankjan06.jpg

You know, I can show you which areas Jewish people weren't allowed to live in Europe 1939. How's that relevant for 2009?

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Originally posted by Krypton LOL, Dubai and Abu Dhabi aren't being occupied by a foreign army, nor are they being colonized by foreign settlers who drive out the natives.

So how about, invest all the money in infrastructures and economy, factories and education and establish a state similar to Israel?
Also, see CHRles example of Hong Kong above.

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Originally posted by Krypton Israeli actions give Hamas all the pretext they need to threaten your existance. But the fact of the matter is. They can't truly threaten your existance. Your country is unimaginably stronger than Hamas ever will be.

If someone says he'll kill you, will you take the risk? Even if he said he'll do that with a pencil, while you know he means it?

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Originally posted by Krypton I did answer your question. You don't want your country to have any relations with Palestine? FINE. But at least allow them to conduct commerce like any other civilized nation.

Commerce with whom??? Are you that ignorant?
Hamas leaders themselves said that Rafah (the Egyptian border) is their only "bridge" to the world. Israel-Gaza border is for Gazans who want to enter Israel and vice-versa.

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Originally posted by buitre Excuse me for the language, but resist fucking what? We're talking about Gaza here. Have you seen any Israelis in Gaza for the last 3 fucking years?

blockade, airstikes, raids, assassinations.

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You think like a 5 year old kid, I can't believe it ... I've never said you were wrong, so to speak. Your definition wasn't accurate enough. Get over it.

It's amusing to watch your argument slowly fall apart, so now, instead of addressing my arguments, you'r pathetically resorting to attacking me instead. So much for thinking like a 5 year old...

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Let me remind you, again, that we're talking about Gaza here. Hamas don't give a shit about Fatah and the West Bank, where Fatah's in charge.

Wrong, both do give a shit about the other, otherwise Abbas wouldn't be calling for national unity meetings, or demanding the Gaza blockade end.

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Two words: suicide bombers. I already explained that.

You'r running around in circles now. You tried to justify the occupations hundreds of checkpoints and barriers by attempting to compare it to the US/Mexico border. Clearly, you'r comparison is fallacious, as the US does not occupy Mexico.

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You know, I can show you which areas Jewish people weren't allowed to live in Europe 1939. How's that relevant for 2009?

LOL, you'r really speechless aren't you? 1939 is irrelevant. Your people are colonizing Palestinian lands with hundreds of "Israeli only" settlements. Keep trying to justify it...

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So how about, invest all the money in infrastructures and economy, factories and education and establish a state similar to Israel? Also, see CHRles example of Hong Kong above.

How about Israel respect Palestinian sovereignty, then perhaps a real economy can be forged. Until then, no prosperous economy can function, when the damn country is being occupied, a system of apartheid is in effect, and commerce is stifled by hundreds of checkpoints. Hong Kong isn't being occupied. Is that too hard to understand?

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If someone says he'll kill you, will you take the risk? Even if he said he'll do that with a pencil, while you know he means it?

Of course they want to kill you. You'r country has just killed/wounded thousands of them.

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Commerce with whom??? Are you that ignorant? Hamas leaders themselves said that Rafah (the Egyptian border) is their only "bridge" to the world. Israel-Gaza border is for Gazans who want to enter Israel and vice-versa.

Commerce with....THE WORLD...hellllo?? Gaza has the Rafah crossing and a port, which Israel blockades with its navy. You want the border closed. I said fine, but stop the damn blockade and allow them to at least conduct commerce like every civilized nation in the world.

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Originally posted by CHRles And you, tathi, writing from Australia. What territories have you given back to the Aborigines? Were Sydney or Melbourne once settled by anyone else?

It pains me to admit but Australian history _is_ extremely dark and bloody, we genocided the aboriginal population here but at least we are taking steps to heal the rift between immigrants and the rightful owners of the land. Unlike Israel we aren't putting them in apartheid style open air prisons and collectively punish the entire poppualtion by bombing them back to the stone age and destroying their schools and hospitals and infrastructure so that they do not have running water and their streets are filled with sewerage and they have to rely on international aid so they don't starve to death.

I would be fucking disgusted with my country if we did any of that to the aboriginal population here. Fortunately we have matured a lot in the last 100 years. Israel is a very young country, lets hope it doesn't take 100 years for their government to realise that war crimes, apartheid, and barbarism is _not_ the best way to ensure peace for its population.

what an amazing, courageous man. only when the voices of Israeli and Palestinian moderates like him are stronger than the extremists that cling to power in government will there be peace in Israel / Palestine.

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Originally posted by Krypton Commerce with....THE WORLD...hellllo?? Gaza has the Rafah crossing and a port, which Israel blockades with its navy. You want the border closed. I said fine, but stop the damn blockade and allow them to at least conduct commerce like every civilized nation in the world.

not to mention yasser arafat international airport, which was shutdown by IAF airstrikes in 2001.

EDIT it was able to handle 700 000 passengers a year

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Originally posted by tathi what an amazing, courageous man. only when the voices of Israeli moderates like him are stronger than the extremists that cling to power in government will there be peace in Israel / Palestine.

fixed. realistically if it were said that he was a palestinian saying all that it wouldn't carry nearly as much weight...sad but true.

same goes for the protests-speaking of which, that vid must be bs, because chrless said only "you know who they are" get involved in protests

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Originally posted by Krypton blockade, airstikes, raids, assassinations.

...of people who try (and succeeded once - thank God it was once) to kidnap soldiers, carry out suicide bombings and launch rockets and mortar shells into Israel.

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Originally posted by Krypton It's amusing to watch your argument slowly fall apart, so now, instead of addressing my arguments, you'r pathetically resorting to attacking me instead. So much for thinking like a 5 year old...

You've been going around and around this "Oh where was I wrong?" line for at least 3-4 posts now. Grow up.

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Originally posted by Krypton Wrong, both do give a shit about the other, otherwise Abbas wouldn't be calling for national unity meetings, or demanding the Gaza blockade end.

Yeah ... Care to explain?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../MN3215FAUD.DTL
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057961.html
I can find more of this, you know.

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Originally posted by Krypton You'r running around in circles now. You tried to justify the occupations hundreds of checkpoints and barriers by attempting to compare it to the US/Mexico border. Clearly, you'r comparison is fallacious, as the US does not occupy Mexico.

See, that's what I'm talking about.
The Mexico border was an example to the fact that in every border you have check points. In the West Bank you have a lot more because alot of people are going through them every day. Those check points and barriers have reduced by far to almost zero the suicide bombings and shooting at Israelis, as I said before.

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Originally posted by Krypton LOL, you'r really speechless aren't you? 1939 is irrelevant. Your people are colonizing Palestinian lands with hundreds of "Israeli only" settlements. Keep trying to justify it...

Justify what? When did I justify anything? See, that's another example why some people here can't stand you.
I'll ask again - show me an up to date version of the West Bank. Till then, your argument is empty.

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Originally posted by Krypton How about Israel respect Palestinian sovereignty, then perhaps a real economy can be forged. Until then, no prosperous economy can function, when the damn country is being occupied, a system of apartheid is in effect, and commerce is stifled by hundreds of checkpoints. Hong Kong isn't being occupied. Is that too hard to understand?

Hong Kong was occupied, that was the point. And it flourished even then.
Apartheid? What the hell.? you do know that there are around 1 million Muslim arabs who live in Israel as Israeli citizens, represented by (corrupted) parties in the Knesset, right?
If Palestinins want a state, let them have one, I'm for it. But now you call it apartheid ...... Refer to the "5-year old kid" line in my previous post, please.
Another thing - If Jewish people want to live in Palestinian Authority areas - what's wrong with that? Because according to your rules, I can say Haifa is being "occupied" by palestinians and arabs.

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Originally posted by Krypton Of course they want to kill you. You'r country has just killed/wounded thousands of them.

...because the didn't renew the so called cease fire, and for about 10 days fired 60-70 rockets in average to southern cities, directly at civilians, without Israeli reaction.

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Originally posted by Krypton Commerce with....THE WORLD...hellllo?? Gaza has the Rafah crossing and a port, which Israel blockades with its navy. You want the border closed. I said fine, but stop the damn blockade and allow them to at least conduct commerce like every civilized nation in the world.

I see you didn't read about Karine A. Shame.
Well, read this:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1208422633228
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...JiSFQAD95SAOO82
I can find more of this too, if you'd like.

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Originally posted by buitre See, that's what I'm talking about. The Mexico border was an example to the fact that in every border you have check points. In the West Bank you have a lot more because alot of people are going through them every day. Those check points and barriers have reduced by far to almost zero the suicide bombings and shooting at Israelis, as I said before.

you act like the checkpoints are your run of the mill border patrol. they jurisdict over ilegally occupied territory and cut palestine up into tiny little islands, and you need permission from the Israelis to travel around freely. thats not what i call sovereignty.

drop this analogy, it is not fitting by anymeans.

quote:

Hong Kong was occupied, that was the point. And it flourished even then. Apartheid? What the hell.? you do know that there are around 1 million Muslim arabs who live in Israel as Israeli citizens, represented by (corrupted) parties in the Knesset, right? If Palestinins want a state, let them have one, I'm for it. But now you call it apartheid ...... Refer to the "5-year old kid" line in my previous post, please. Another thing - If Jewish people want to live in Palestinian Authority areas - what's wrong with that? Because according to your rules, I can say Haifa is being "occupied" by palestinians and arabs.

First of all, those Israeli arabs are as Israeli as you...even though on many levels they are second class citizens(ie taking away their political parties right before the election).

when Krypton is referring to apartheid, he's not referring to these people, he's referring to the stateless people that are at the complete mercy of the IDF. Israeli only settlements +roads in internationally recognized land is very shameless apartheid at that.

whats wrong with jewish people wanting to live in palestinean areas? the settlements are illegal. when a state is made for the palestineans if you want to move there under their jurisdiction(granted permission ofcourse by the PA) then i dont see a problem.
you can say haifa is being occupied by palestinians??you mean israeli arabs? it comes off to me that you don't see them as full citizens of your country. Israel possesses complete jurisdiction over Haifa, how does this classify as occupied?

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Originally posted by DJ Damerchi you act like the checkpoints are your run of the mill border patrol. they jurisdict over ilegally occupied territory and cut palestine up into tiny little islands, and you need permission from the Israelis to travel around freely. thats not what i call sovereignty. drop this analogy, it is not fitting by anymeans.

You mean inside the West Bank? Then you're right, it doesn't fit. My comparison is to the border of Israel-West Bank.
Inside the West Bank, well, after the peace agreements with Fatah will (I hope) be signed, I believe not a single Israeli soldier will set foot in there. I really hope and wish for that. I also hope PA will allow Jewish people to live in the West Bank. But right now, I see no other means to keep the lives of Jews there safe. I'd like you to suggest options if you can think of any. (And yeah, I know that there are some problematic extremists, Jewish and Muslim)

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Originally posted by DJ Damerchi First of all, those Israeli arabs are as Israeli as you...even though on many levels they are second class citizens(ie taking away their political parties right before the election).

It doesn't matter to me if those parties were Jewish (in this case they were Arab/Palestinian - look up for Ahmed Tibi, he himself says he's a proud Palestinian with an Israeli citizenship), the fact is - they sided Hamas. If it was up to me, I'd take their citizenship. (You remember Hamas' charter right?)

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Originally posted by DJ Damerchi when Krypton is referring to apartheid, he's not referring to these people, he's referring to the stateless people that are at the complete mercy of the IDF. Israeli only settlements +roads in internationally recognized land is very shameless apartheid at that.

Which people are stateless, you mean the people in the PA territories?
And again, show me which roads are you talking about. Plus, see my first paragraph in this post.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi whats wrong with jewish people wanting to live in palestinean areas? the settlements are illegal. when a state is made for the palestineans if you want to move there under their jurisdiction(granted permission ofcourse by the PA) then i dont see a problem. you can say haifa is being occupied by palestinians??you mean israeli arabs? it comes off to me that you don't see them as full citizens of your country. Israel possesses complete jurisdiction over Haifa, how does this classify as occupied?

On the same basis I can say that Palestinians who live in Israel are illegal. The only difference is that Jews who live in the West Bank aren't as safe as Palestinians who live in Israel.

Interesting...

"Gazan doctor says death toll inflated"
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3660423,00.html

The original article is from the italian Corriere Della Sera.

interesting...

"Former Mayor claims Holocaust death toll heavily inflated"

SOURCE

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Originally posted by buitre Inside the West Bank, well, after the peace agreements with Fatah will (I hope) be signed, I believe not a single Israeli soldier will set foot in there. I really hope and wish for that. I also hope PA will allow Jewish people to live in the West Bank. But right now, I see no other means to keep the lives of Jews there safe. I'd like you to suggest options if you can think of any. (And yeah, I know that there are some problematic extremists, Jewish and Muslim)

i applaud the work israel has done do remove some of the settlers and compensate them. there is still however much to be undone.

67 borders..no "land swaps". i always here them saying 67 borders plus a few land swaps, which just means Israel is going to annex greater Jerusalem(including part of bethlehem).

after the two states are created...allow civil aviation to take place, free commerce, open port at gaza. also, a gaza-west bank causeway that could get guarded by israel over their territory, but allow movement between the two areas without ever technically entering Israel.

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It doesn't matter to me if those parties were Jewish (in this case they were Arab/Palestinian - look up for Ahmed Tibi, he himself says he's a proud Palestinian with an Israeli citizenship), the fact is - they sided Hamas. If it was up to me, I'd take their citizenship. (You remember Hamas' charter right?)

I always had a respect with the amount of political parties in the knesset(not dominated by 2). we've seen the torch passed from kadima,likud, and labour in recent years. I also was happy to see the arab israelis getting their say in legislation...but they seemed to have reached a barrier with this recent ruling in the knesset.

LOL are you talking about "corrupted parties",
...Moshe Katsav & Ehud Olmert hahahahaha

quote:

Which people are stateless, you mean the people in the PA territories? And again, show me which roads are you talking about. Plus, see my first paragraph in this post.

stateless, you know, no passport, no vote in UN, no legitamate embassies around the world,and so on and so on.

there are settlements in places like Hebron, Bethlehem, and east Jerusalem for example. there are Israeli access roads to these places.

quote:

On the same basis I can say that Palestinians who live in Israel are illegal. The only difference is that Jews who live in the West Bank aren't as safe as Palestinians who live in Israel.

this is more of an immigration issue. if there is a guy who has permission from Israel to do manual work in Haifa he's not an occupying force. if he comes to work or cause havoc without permission he is still not an occupying force-just an illegal migrant/immigrant that has to be dealt with with respective customs organizations

More empty rhetoric from the DHC (Department of Hope n' Change):

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Obama Condemns Palestinian Rocket Fire, Silent on US-Backed Israeli Mass Killings in Gaza Meanwhile, Obama made his first substantive comments on the Middle East conflict since Israel’s attack on Gaza. Obama first mentioned his commitment to Israel’s security, without affirming his commitment to Palestinian security. He condemned Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israeli towns, but didn’t criticize the US-backed Israeli bombings of densely populated Gaza. But in a departure from the Bush administration, Obama acknowledged Palestinian suffering and said Gaza’s borders should be opened to aid. President Obama: “I was deeply concerned by the loss of Palestinian and Israeli life in recent days and by the substantial suffering and humanitarian needs in Gaza. Our hearts go out to Palestinian civilians who are in need of immediate food, clean water and basic medical care, and who’ve faced suffocating poverty for far too long. Now we must extend a hand of opportunity to those who seek peace. As part of a lasting ceasefire, Gaza’s border crossings should be open to allow the flow of aid and commerce, with an appropriate monitoring regime, with the international and Palestinian Authority participating. Relief efforts must be able to reach innocent Palestinians who depend on them.” In further comments that could signal a departure from Bush, Obama mentioned the Arab League peace initiative, which would offer Israel normalized relations in return for a full withdrawal from the Occupied Territories and a just resolution for Palestinian refugees. The Bush administration had backed Israel’s rejection of the offer and its expansion of settlements in the Occupied West Bank. President Obama: “I should add that the Arab peace initiative contains constructive elements that could help advance these efforts. Now is the time for Arab states to act on the initiative’s promise by supporting the Palestinian government under President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad, taking steps towards normalizing relations with Israel, and by standing up to extremism that threatens us all.” While Palestinan President Mahmoud Abbas welcomed Obama’s comments, a Hamas spokesperson told Al Jazeera television Obama’s position does not represent change.

Source: Democracy Now

EDIT: And...

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Noam Chomsky: Obama’s Stance on Gaza Crisis “Approximately the Bush Position” In a visit to the State Department Thursday, President Obama made his first substantive comments on the Middle East conflict since Israel’s attack on Gaza. Obama first mentioned his commitment to Israel’s security, without affirming his commitment to Palestinian security. He condemned Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israeli towns, but didn’t criticize the U.S.-backed Israeli bombings of densely-populated Gaza. But in a departure from the Bush administration, Obama acknowledged Palestinian suffering and said Gaza’s borders should be opened to aid. We speak with MIT professor, Noam Chomsky.

Source: Democracy Now

quote:

US Rabbis Urge Obama to Push for Gaza Ceasefire Lernerweb A coalition of American rabbis and other religious, cultural and community leaders bought a full-page ad in the New York Times on Wednesday calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for President-elect Barack Obama to convene an international Middle East peace conference. The initiative was led by Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of Tikkun magazine. [includes rush transcript]

Source: Democracy Now

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