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quote:

Originally posted by ti_gui909 what kind of an argument is "people have been DJing for decades without it. i really domt see the need." ??

pkcRAISTLIN was actually making the point that just because a CDJ1000 has 'Master Tempo' it doesn't mean that vinyl is obsolete as implied by DJ Damerchi.

In General,
This whole Harmonic thing is a whole different thread, something that has been seriously missunderstood by some of the posters in this thread. But for the record, if you are going to make an arguement it is not advisable to take one thing you don't know very much about and compare to something else you seemingly know very little about. It's better to be quiet and have people think you are stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Why would it make sense to rant about the virtues of evolving technology when you are not even prepared to embrace a little basic musical understanding?

I have never in my life (and not saying it wont happen) come across a DJ who, once he or she has learnt how to mix harmonically has turned around and said "This is pointless, I wont bother with this".

Likewise, it would also be unwise to turn your nose up at technology as long as it improves what you are doing. It takes a while as a DJ to get used to what's being sold as a gimick and what isn't.

The truth is, some people like vinyl more than CDs but at the same time they should not be confusing their love for vinyl with a justification to bash CDs and visa versa. Both are still used in clubs and will be for a while yet. And as I said before, vinyl has been given x amount of years to live and still it fights on. Freak also made a valid point about the Hip Hop culture that still is predominantly vinyl based.
Time will tell and for all we know there may be a new technology on the way that will make all current totally redundant. Focus on what we have now and you will be better prepared come what may.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 pkcRAISTLIN was actually making the point that just because a CDJ1000 has 'Master Tempo' it doesn't mean that vinyl is obsolete as implied by DJ Damerchi.

That i agree with. But that's not what i was answering to.
I was answering to his comment :

"any DJ that *needs* keylock isnt that good imo. people have been DJing for decades without it. i really domt see the need."

Of course nobody *needs* master tempo but it's a great feature. You can beatmatch a track with vocals without altering that vocal too much, wich is great.

But i understand pkcRAISTLIN was referring to using keylocking in harmonic mixing wich is not what i'm talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 it is not advisable to take one thing you don't know very much about and compare to something else you seemingly know very little about. It's better to be quiet and have people think you are stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

where does that come from ? I, for sure, know much less then you on either subject but i know enough to participate in this discussion.
Don't come and tell me some proverbial shit to undermine my right to have an opinion on the subject.
It's just not cool man.
I did not attack anybody, I'm trying to stay in the arena of idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Why would it make sense to rant about the virtues of evolving technology when you are not even prepared to embrace a little basic musical understanding?

I don't believe I've shown a reluctancy to embrace a little basic musical understanding.
But anyway I think DJing is NOT that complicated. It's still playing some records for a party. It's still choosing the right tune for the right moment (whatever is the key of the tune).
You wanna talk the basic of music, creativity and music as an art, go in the production section.

quote:

Originally posted by ti_gui909 I don't believe I've shown a reluctancy to embrace a little basic musical understanding. But anyway I think DJing is NOT that complicated. It's still playing some records for a party. It's still choosing the right tune for the right moment (whatever is the key of the tune). You wanna talk the basic of music, creativity and music as an art, go in the production section.

Basic djing is not complicated by any means.

But stating that djing does not or potentialy shouldn't include any knowledge of basic music composition, creativity and such will lead to making you a very boring and completely unoriginal dj.

quote:

Originally posted by ti_gui909 That i agree with. But that's not what i was answering to. I was answering to his comment : "any DJ that *needs* keylock isnt that good imo. people have been DJing for decades without it. i really domt see the need." Of course nobody *needs* master tempo but it's a great feature. You can beatmatch a track with vocals without altering that vocal too much, wich is great. But i understand pkcRAISTLIN was referring to using keylocking in harmonic mixing wich is not what i'm talking about. where does that come from ? I, for sure, know much less then you on either subject but i know enough to participate in this discussion. Don't come and tell me some proverbial shit to undermine my right to have an opinion on the subject. It's just not cool man. I did not attack anybody, I'm trying to stay in the arena of idea. I don't believe I've shown a reluctancy to embrace a little basic musical understanding. But anyway I think DJing is NOT that complicated. It's still playing some records for a party. It's still choosing the right tune for the right moment (whatever is the key of the tune). You wanna talk the basic of music, creativity and music as an art, go in the production section.

Please note that I did actually have a sub heading that stated 'In General' which actually means that it wasn't specifically aimed at you but some of the other coments that have been made more recently in this thread. Didn't actually mean to imply that it was aimed at you.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 I have never in my life (and not saying it wont happen) come across a DJ who, once he or she has learnt how to mix harmonically has turned around and said "This is pointless, I wont bother with this".

I know this isn't the thread for it, but I gotta say this statement is exceptionally true. I've known a lot of people, myself included, who were hesitant to start to learn about mixing harmonicly, in my case it was mostly because I was confused and a bit intimidated to learn at first, but since I've put the effort into beginning to learn, I've already started trying things in mixes that I just wouldn't have thought to do before (new mashup ideas/phrasing ideas mostly for now), and I genuinely feel (without sounding too new-age) like a whole new world of mixing has opened up for me...

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RJT I know this isn't the thread for it, but I gotta say this statement is exceptionally true. I've known a lot of people, myself included, who were hesitant to start to learn about mixing harmonicly, in my case it was mostly because I was confused and a bit intimidated to learn at first, but since I've put the effort into beginning to learn, I've already started trying things in mixes that I just wouldn't have thought to do before (new mashup ideas/phrasing ideas mostly for now), and I genuinely feel (without sounding too new-age) like a whole new world of mixing has opened up for me...

a-freaking-men.

As someone who's been paying attention to dance music for a while but only playing records a relatively short period of time, I've copped a bit of flak from local know-it-alls for my being something of a keying evangelist, but I've only ever met two kinds of DJs: those who've never actually done it (played from a collection of tunes they know well that are labelled by key), and those who are thoroughly convinced.

songs have melodies. DJs mix songs. is it really such a difficult concept to grasp that DJs should have a handle on mixing melodies?

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Please note that I did actually have a sub heading that stated 'In General' which actually means that it wasn't specifically aimed at you but some of the other coments that have been made more recently in this thread. Didn't actually mean to imply that it was aimed at you. Cheers Nem

copy that !

got me on my high horses there !

quote:

Originally posted by Nyquist_Theorem

Yeah, it's just extra funny to me because I think the main reason I didn't want to start with harmonic mixing was that I felt almost like it was going to be this crutch I was using to mix, like some sort of "trick" that was somehow "cheating." I guess I thought if I couldn't figure out compatible keys/tracks by ear, then what good was I really... In reality, it was the exact opposite because it trained my ears to better understand what compatible keys sound like, and with no real musical training outside of teaching myself guitar and bass, it was almost likesome major epiphony or revelation....

alright...

/harmonic mixing evangelizing

quote:

Originally posted by jdat Basic djing is not complicated by any means. But stating that djing does not or potentialy shouldn't include any knowledge of basic music composition, creativity and such will lead to making you a very boring and completely unoriginal dj.

Of course having basic knowledge can only help DJing.
And I believe that in order to be a good DJ you need to understand some basic music theory and a big deal of rythm theory can help you do some very neaty cuts, EQ cut, well placed reverse kick, and probably lots of other little tricks i can't think about. I would even add that you can transpose what musicians calls soul or also energy into mixing with live beat syncronisation and just throwing a song in with your gut without perfecting the beatmatch or with creative cuts and weird tricks and EQ cut. And for melodic trance, overlaping melody who match (or made matching) in keys to create rich new melodies. That would be what i would call taking DJing to the level of a performance.

But I still believe that in order to be a good DJ (i.e a DJ that can set the dancefloor on fire and make those party people dance with passion) a DJ must pick the right song for the right moment and that goes by having good musical taste and feeling the crowd for what it craves for. I say that this is by far the most important thing. As long as you have that you can be original and not boring even if your mixing is very simple. I mean most of the big star DJ's mix are not that sophisticated. Mainly they neatly sew intros in the song where it fits well. I say once you have decent mixing skills you got the technical aspect covered when considering crowd appreciation. Of course some extra/super mixing skills can help but it doesn't make or break a great DJ.

I do respect though the fact that you guys take DJing to the next level. I think there's always a place for inovation.

quote:

Originally posted by ti_gui909 copy that ! got me on my high horses there !

No worries man,
When I read through it again I realised that it wasn't exactly clear that was what I was doing either. Cool beans.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by ti_gui909 But I still believe that in order to be a good DJ (i.e a DJ that can set the dancefloor on fire and make those party people dance with passion) a DJ must pick the right song for the right moment and that goes by having good musical taste and feeling the crowd for what it craves for. I say that this is by far the most important thing. As long as you have that you can be original and not boring even if your mixing is very simple. I mean most of the big star DJ's mix are not that sophisticated. Mainly they neatly sew intros in the song where it fits well. I say once you have decent mixing skills you got the technical aspect covered when considering crowd appreciation. Of course some extra/super mixing skills can help but it doesn't make or break a great DJ.

Absolutely, there are times when a track is 'the one' and you simply have to play it, wont disagree with you on that for sure.

Something I discovered though is that with me at least when I get that that feeling about a track it's nearly always in key or compatible with or at least gives an uplifting key change. What actually makes that tune 'the one' is an interesting concept.

If you play out a lot as I do you will eventually get to know what the tunes that work are and what's big at the time so you will find yourself working to that point when you are going to drop the bomb as it were.
Also, the more you do DJ you learn to recognise the signs earlier so you can find a way to work towards it and still maintain harmonic methodology. Think of it like this, it's good to drop the right tune at the right time, but if you do a key lift with it as well you will blow peoples minds. It just adds to the excitement.

It does take time to learn but it's good to see that you guys are talking about it, as you stated it's definately something that makes a good DJ.

Dancefloor dynamics are probably the most important skill set you can have as ultimately it's all about our audience. On the other hand harmonics do take certain risk elements out of the mix as you are not going to do a key drop and potentially have a negative impact on your listeners. It makes it easier to maintain energy.

We should probably rename this thread, Vinyl vs CDs vs Harmonic Mixing... he he.

Cheers
Nem

I prefer vinyl over cd's... why??? cause i enjnoy the 'collectable' factor in the medium... i'm sick of the 'real dj's only play records' wank... i remember when it was all about the tunes... the only downfalls to cd's is they can potentially mak things easier... there is a well known dj in Australia that does and has done for years editting tracks before each gig so they're all in the same tempo and key... i also have gripes with dj's that use fancy effects to hide dodgy mixes... but at the same time it has and will made the talented ones more creative... as for the me in the future?? i see myself buying more vinyl till (if ever) it's no longer being made... but maybe ripping it to cd to play out...

that said i played at a well known brisbane venue a few weeks ago, had bought a few downloads to play, got to the venue to find the room i was playing in had no cd players!!

Ableton Live! u slow mofos :P

start ur own thread u 7334 pusy :P

Yeah, an endless debate...

Fact of the matter is, like someone on this thread said, most of the teenagers I know, also, who are getting into DJing are doing so with CD's and computers due to accessibility, cost-effectiveness, and flexibility of use. It's much easier to go this way, since the medium allows their music to go from computer to cd to car stereo to club MUCH easier than... vinyl, which can only be played on turntables.

Personally, I started out DJing with CD's on a Denon 2600 Dual-CD Player, since I had such a large collection of music on CD. My focus was on trance music, and naturally, I gravitated to vinyl about a year after picking up my CD decks... this was about 5 years ago.

Today, I'm noticing more and more, newer DJ's preferring CD to vinyl. I personally LOVE vinyl MUCH more than CD's. Nothing is like the feel of actually manipulating the track with your hands and *personally* knowing each tune that comes out of the record sleeve. Ironically, I find that beatmatching and maintaining tempos while in-the-mix is easier on turntables than on CD decks, due to the rigid feel of an analog pitch control and direct control over vinyl.

With that said, I was very reluctant to migrate back to CD's, not that I have completely done so at this point. The CDJ-1000, however, has completely changed my perspective. It comes amazingly close to vinyl (though definitely not the same), allows more room for creativity, and takes away the problem of "reading the groove" on a record (although it fucking takes forever for the unit to analyze and show the wave of a track on its display).

Vinyl junkies will know how tough it is to get a hold of certain tunes on vinyl. The digital domain makes this easier a thousandfold, so if you can't find that tune that's been playing in your head for the past few days... you can probably acquire it online in a second.

The MAJOR decision factor for me to give CD's a shot once again? 4 massive crates and boxes for a collection of vinyl (God, that breaks your back after all these years) vs a 200-slot CD case that can hold ALL of my vinyl collection on CD's with room for more! And of course... the $10-per-vinyl cost vs the cost of downloading your music.

With that said, there still are several tunes that have been impossible to find online in acceptable quality, especially newer releases. While sites like beatport.com make downloading music easier, they simply don't have it all. NOTHING beats getting a limited-press, promo white label in the post, or digging through some records at the local record shop and finding a gem!

In retrospect, I'd like to say that I still *prefer* vinyl, but to bash those that are using CD's is simply assanine (this comes from a former vinyl purist). I don't see myself giving up vinyl anytime soon, since I'm so attached to it, but I'm not going reject new technology. The dance music industry moves in such a way that demands the adaptation to and the embracing of technological change. It makes no sense to set yourself back... you will only fall behind.

If I had been asked about the whole vinyl vs CD debate two years ago, my response would have undoubtedly been, "vinyl." The fact that internationally successful DJ's and producers are being seen more and more using CD's proves that this just isn't the case anymore. John '00' Fleming performs solely on CD now, the last Tiesto concert in LA had a four CDJ-1000 setup (if I'm not mistaken), and increasingly, I have seen CD's being used, in conjunction with vinyl.

Well, this turned out to be a very long post, but I suppose I had a lot to say. Another person on this thread mentioned that it's ultimately the crowd that decides what a good DJ is. Amen to that one...

Re: Yeah, an endless debate...

quote:

Originally posted by djillicit the last Tiesto concert in LA had a four CDJ-1000 setup (if I'm not mistaken),

If it was LA 2005, 2 cdj 1000s and 2 dvdjs

Re: Re: Yeah, an endless debate...

quote:

Originally posted by Xtracktor If it was LA 2005, 2 cdj 1000s and 2 dvdjs

Yezzz! There ya go... case in point, not vinyl.

Re: Yeah, an endless debate...

quote:

Originally posted by djillicit Fact of the matter is, like someone on this thread said, most of the teenagers I know, also, who are getting into DJing are doing so with CD's and computers due to accessibility, cost-effectiveness, and flexibility of use. It's much easier to go this way, since the medium allows their music to go from computer to cd to car stereo to club MUCH easier than... vinyl, which can only be played on turntables. Personally, I started out DJing with CD's on a Denon 2600 Dual-CD Player, since I had such a large collection of music on CD. My focus was on trance music, and naturally, I gravitated to vinyl about a year after picking up my CD decks... this was about 5 years ago. Today, I'm noticing more and more, newer DJ's preferring CD to vinyl. I personally LOVE vinyl MUCH more than CD's. Nothing is like the feel of actually manipulating the track with your hands and *personally* knowing each tune that comes out of the record sleeve. Ironically, I find that beatmatching and maintaining tempos while in-the-mix is easier on turntables than on CD decks, due to the rigid feel of an analog pitch control and direct control over vinyl. With that said, I was very reluctant to migrate back to CD's, not that I have completely done so at this point. The CDJ-1000, however, has completely changed my perspective. It comes amazingly close to vinyl (though definitely not the same), allows more room for creativity, and takes away the problem of "reading the groove" on a record (although it fucking takes forever for the unit to analyze and show the wave of a track on its display). Vinyl junkies will know how tough it is to get a hold of certain tunes on vinyl. The digital domain makes this easier a thousandfold, so if you can't find that tune that's been playing in your head for the past few days... you can probably acquire it online in a second. The MAJOR decision factor for me to give CD's a shot once again? 4 massive crates and boxes for a collection of vinyl (God, that breaks your back after all these years) vs a 200-slot CD case that can hold ALL of my vinyl collection on CD's with room for more! And of course... the $10-per-vinyl cost vs the cost of downloading your music. With that said, there still are several tunes that have been impossible to find online in acceptable quality, especially newer releases. While sites like beatport.com make downloading music easier, they simply don't have it all. NOTHING beats getting a limited-press, promo white label in the post, or digging through some records at the local record shop and finding a gem! In retrospect, I'd like to say that I still *prefer* vinyl, but to bash those that are using CD's is simply assanine (this comes from a former vinyl purist). I don't see myself giving up vinyl anytime soon, since I'm so attached to it, but I'm not going reject new technology. The dance music industry moves in such a way that demands the adaptation to and the embracing of technological change. It makes no sense to set yourself back... you will only fall behind. If I had been asked about the whole vinyl vs CD debate two years ago, my response would have undoubtedly been, "vinyl." The fact that internationally successful DJ's and producers are being seen more and more using CD's proves that this just isn't the case anymore. John '00' Fleming performs solely on CD now, the last Tiesto concert in LA had a four CDJ-1000 setup (if I'm not mistaken), and increasingly, I have seen CD's being used, in conjunction with vinyl. Well, this turned out to be a very long post, but I suppose I had a lot to say. Another person on this thread mentioned that it's ultimately the crowd that decides what a good DJ is. Amen to that one...

Really sweet post, i feel the same way as you do especially after touching and playing around with the cdj1000. Other than the cheaper cost of downloading, i realised how important CDs were when you are dying to get hold of some essential tracks 'immediately' for your gig or whatever just by downloading which takes just minutes. However, i just love the raw feel of vinyl and will be sticking to it for awhile until I can cough up enough cash for a cdj1000. What i do not like is the idea of laptop djing, yes its creative and takes up space but it takes away the tactile nature of a DJ.

im using mainly 192-VBR-320 mp3s so here i am - shoot my sick head right between the eyes

vinyl will never die and it will always be the true way to dj no matter what you think

Poll

I personally like vinyl, tho I would love to be able to buy 12" for the same price of a download. i assume you only get one track with each download( never done it) whereas you get 2+ with 12".
CDJ's cost a couple of hundred more than 1200's so its a tough choice. If I had more cash I'd have a mixture of both.
Hopefully vinyl will be around for a while yet. It sees more of an accomplishment getting your tracks pressed up, than putting them on a website.

quote:

Originally posted by skot_e Poll I personally like vinyl, tho I would love to be able to buy 12" for the same price of a download. i assume you only get one track with each download( never done it) whereas you get 2+ with 12". CDJ's cost a couple of hundred more than 1200's so its a tough choice. If I had more cash I'd have a mixture of both. Hopefully vinyl will be around for a while yet. It sees more of an accomplishment getting your tracks pressed up, than putting them on a website.

I think getting a track signed to a label no matter what format is an achievement in itself... u get one track with a download and 2 or more (in most cases) with a record but how many do you actually play out?? me in most cases is one...

I guess that depends of the quality of the tunage.
Would be nice if every 12" had 2 rockin tracks on it tho

If you bought a vinyl before 1990, then yes vinyl does sound better than cd. But if you bought a vinyl after 1990 then vinyl sounds equally as good as cd.

Remember in the pre-1990 days of recording music, studios used analog methods of recording such as big reel to reel tapes and later sent to an acetate (vinyl master) for mass copying.

The post-1990 era introduced us to the DAT tape. Most professionally done EDM is recorded and mastered to a DAT tape which is a digital medium supporting frequencies up to 48,000 KHz. That would satisfy even the most extreme audiophile. CD's and vinyl are then sent to be copied from the same dat tape, therefore the notion that vinyl sounds better than cd and vice versa is all a lie and rather a big dj culture war between vinyl enthusiasts and digital rebels.

quote:

Originally posted by stevieboy32808 If you bought a vinyl before 1990, then yes vinyl does sound better than cd. But if you bought a vinyl after 1990 then vinyl sounds equally as good as cd. Remember in the pre-1990 days of recording music, studios used analog methods of recording such as big reel to reel tapes and later sent to an acetate (vinyl master) for mass copying. The post-1990 era introduced us to the DAT tape. Most professionally done EDM is recorded and mastered to a DAT tape which is a digital medium supporting frequencies up to 48,000 KHz. That would satisfy even the most extreme audiophile. CD's and vinyl are then sent to be copied from the same dat tape, therefore the notion that vinyl sounds better than cd and vice versa is all a lie and rather a big dj culture war between vinyl enthusiasts and digital rebels.

That's all well and good, and i'm keeping a completely unbiased opinion when I say this, but wouldn't most cds that are played out come from a 320kbps download??

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