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Originally posted by Epicurus Naive? Hardly. You wouldn't understand this unless you lived in Lebanon and experienced the civil war. Just like you guys have a taboo on anything related to the Holocaust, and a maxim that goes along with it "never again", so do we with regards to the civil war and anything, however small it is, that threatens to break the country up along sectarian lines again. I can't even begin to tell you how debated disarming Hizballah has been in Lebanese congress, all to no avail. You may want to consider it naive, but it is the truth. Sad, but true.

Epicurus, the old maxim still holds true, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Israel has gone down a road that they cannot back out of and it is why i wondered what they were attempting to do in the first place in Lebanon. I wish the Israelis the best of luck, Hezbollah is not Al Qaeda. Israel can defeat them but the cost will be a lot of those boys that Yoepus talks about. This is why one thinks long and hard about war, we'll see where it goes from here.

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Originally posted by Epicurus I appreciate the sincere answer. I, however, don't appreciate the justification. What you're saying is that Israel doesn't mind endangering the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of innocent Lebanese civilians, for the sake of two of their non-civilians. As much as I can sympathize, I can't say I agree. So let's agree to disagree.

They may have 'endangered' them, but they not out and out bombing them either.
I would have to think the Israelis know the fine line they're riding when it comes to fickle world support.
They had a decision to make and they made it; to flush out the poisonous Hizbullah from the innocent people in Lebanon [edit] and to obviously safe themselves from the constant rocket barages.
They can't fight the Hizbullah when they're hiding behind women and children and without triggering a red-flag from Western liberals either; which the Hizbullah want.
They want American photo-journalists taking shots of dead Lebanese to give their cause legitimacy.
The longer Israel takes, the more legitimacy the Hizbullah garnishes therefore it's in Israel's interest to make this swift and concise.

Will there be screw ups? Most definately, and that's what the MSM is going to cover. They already have with the 7 Canadian deaths; it was splashed all over the papers here the next day.

I hope, for both the Lebanese and Isrealis sakes that this doesn't go on too long.

Now as to whether the U.N. should have been there to 'prevent' all this from happening to begin with, when Syria left Lebanon is another question...
Could they have prevented this?

Epicurus, I agree with you on many points. Unfortunately, I'm unfamiliar with the political situation in Lebanon.

However, I am satisfied with Yoepus' answer:

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Originally posted by Yoepus Israel just values the loss of its innocent lives much more highly than the loss of other innocent lives.

This is what I was unable to convey earlier in the thread in my discussions with firestarter. What Yoepus said is all I wanted to hear. I don't believe it is possible to take that statement out of context, but I suggest others read the entire paragraph if they haven't yet.

What Israel is doing is imposing costs on others rather than burden them themselves. By staying at arms length and using "smart bombs", they are still more ineffective than going in and flushing them out with special forces or infantry. As Israel knows, it would suffer much greater casulaties in a ground offensive against hizbollah. They're throwing everything out including the kitchen sink, so to say, with their current strategy. So, they don't mind "inconveniencing" the lebanese (that was euphemism) in order to reduce casualties.

It's my personal belief, that armed with this knowledge, observers can make an informed decision on where they stand with regards to this situation, and the general situation in the middle east.

p.s. I just had to add this in because they're talking about it on tv news right now.. dropping leaflets. to "avoid hizbullah targets". What the hell. If I'm not PART of hizbullah and don't know about hizbullah.. how are people supposed to AVOID targets? jeez...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r They may have 'endangered' them, but they not out and out bombing them either. I would have to think the Israelis know the fine line they're riding when it comes to fickle world support. They had a decision to make and they made it; to flush out the poisonous Hizbullah from the innocent people in Lebanon [edit] and to obviously safe themselves from the constant rocket barages. They can't fight the Hizbullah when they're hiding behind women and children and without triggering a red-flag from Western liberals either; which the Hizbullah want. They want American photo-journalists taking shots of dead Lebanese to give their cause legitimacy. The longer Israel takes, the more legitimacy the Hizbullah garnishes therefore it's in Israel's interest to make this swift and concise. Will there be screw ups? Most definately, and that's what the MSM is going to cover. They already have with the 7 Canadian deaths; it was splashed all over the papers here the next day. I hope, for both the Lebanese and Isrealis sakes that this doesn't go on too long. Now as to whether the U.N. should have been there to 'prevent' all this from happening to begin with, when Syria left Lebanon is another question... Could they have prevented this?

Gonna keep this short... The IDF is also known to have used civilian shields. fact.

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IDF official: Dozens of planes participated in bunker-buster strike in Beirut IDF officials told Ynet that dozens of Air Force fighter jets participated in the massive air strike on a south Beirut target, acting on IDF intelligence. According to the officials, the building itself was completely destroyed and the IDF was checking the results of the strike � whether the senior Hizbullah officials Israel was targeting were actually at the scene. Additionally, a senior IDF officer said that Israeli intelligence had significantly infiltrated Hizbullah. (Hanan Greenberg)

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Reservists called up for Lebanon strike Yaakov Katz and Jpost staff, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 12, 2006 The IAF on Wednesday began to issue call up orders in preparation for retaliatory air strikes against Hizbullah targets in Lebanon, Channel 2 reported. The air force will target power stations and Hizbullah outposts inside Lebanon. The army was also calling up reservists. Only weeks ago, an entire reserve division was drafted in order to train for an operation such as the one the IDF is planning in response to Wednesday morning's Hizbullah attacks on IDF forces along the northern border.

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Lebanon crisis reveals an Anti-Jewish Israeli State by Joshua Stein Hezbollah militants crossed into Israel in mid-July 2006 and captured two Israeli soldiers. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert calls the soldiers' capture "an act of war." Israel then responds in southern Lebanon with warplanes, tanks and gunboats, among other forms of military retaliation. U.S. President George W. Bush responds a couple of days after Israel's abrupt military response by rejecting a request by Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora to support calls for an immediate ceasefire on Israel. Members of the Israeli government including Prime Minister Olmert refer to themselves as Jews, who are champions of the Jewish State of Israel as Mr. Bush refers to himself as a "Christian" champion. However, the current crisis in Lebanon has nothing substantively to do with either Judaism or Christianity. The hideous intelligence of Jewish and Christian impostors Judaism, and the Christianity that Jesus inspired, are religions which embrace peace, and a related system of social ethics. In contrast, the perpetrated actions by Israeli elites and their U.S. neo-conservative allies against innocent Lebanese civilians, reveals a hideous intelligence far from the spirit of either Judaism or Christianity. The perpetration of a criminal act of a group who kidnaps two soldiers, does not justify the infliction of or the loss of not even one innocent life of a human being. Indeed, the Lord's Commandments to both the Jews and the Christians is "Thou Shall not Kill". Israel to-date is already responsible for thousands of casualties, maimings, and injuries. However, it is apparent that these modern day Israelis along with their allies, have turned their back against the enlightened messages of the Torah. That action is somewhat reminiscent of early Israelites who turned to worshipping the "Golden Calf", when Moses was on Mt. Sanai. The "Golden Calf" has symbolized the worship of idoltry and of materialism, and has resulted in the execution of venality, and of iniquity. Jewish social responsibility ignored Pursuant to the Torah, every Jew is a guarantor for every other Jew. Judaism teaches you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. Being a bystander is not an option. Therefore, any Jew who turns a blind eye to the apparent unethical conduct of a self-professed "Jewish State" shares the responsibility in the "Crimes against Humanity" that are being mischievously perpetrated in the name of Judaism. Is Israel in fact, a Jewish State in the spirit of the Torah? If Israel was in fact a 'Jewish State', its leaders would unconditionally express lovingkindness, civility, empathy, and peace in a spirit of social justice. Israel would be a model Just Society, in the world where Jews, Palestinians, other Arabs, and other peoples would live side by side, with an equitable quality-of-life, and with a spirit of cross-cultural sharing and understanding. However, the actions of Israeli elites have once again shown in Lebanon that they do not value the lives of non-Israelis, who have no ill will toward them. The reckless bombing of Lebanese civilians for the kidnapping of two soldiers by the criminal actions of a group, shows the very apparent racist and fascistic Israeli mentality, which is at the heart of creating the conditions for crises in the Middle East. Indeed, the Palestinians and other Arabs in "Greater Israel" are treated even worse than had black Africans in apartheid South Africa. Palestinians and other Arabs are also viewed by the very elites who attack Lebanon, with apparently not much higher regard, than the blacks had been viewed in the former apartheid regime. Prevailing Israeli elites do not express the vital spirit of Judaism in their actions. Actual Judaism challenges the mis-deeds of Israeli elites Judaism, reveres G-d as creating the Universe, the Heavens, the Earth and all its living creatures. When Israeli elites bomb and kill thousands of innocent civilians in Lebanon, they are defiling the spirit of G-d in everyone. When such activities are done in the name of defending a "Jewish State", these Israeli elites further compound the mischief in their German Nazi 'SS' type of barbarity. Jews, including substantively Jews who are citizens of Israel, have a responsibility, in part to champion peace among all nations, rather than executing oppression and inflicting war among all the nations. This special duty is associated with Jews having pledged a Covenant with G-d concluded with the biblical patriarch Abraham, their ancestor, and again with the entire Jewish nation at Mount Sinai. Within this view, Jews are charged with embracing a standard of spiritually inspired social ethics to help usher a sought era of ever-lasting global peace. The Guiding Principles of Reform Judaism, Columbus, Ohio, 1937, for example, specifically states "We regard it as our historic task to cooperate with all men in the establishment of the kingdom of God, of universal brotherhood, Justice, truth and peace on earth. This is our Messianic goal." Contrary to the actions of Israeli elites in Lebanon, Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik writes "Even as the Jew is moved by his private Sinaitic Covenant with G-d to embody and preserve the teachings of the Torah, he [or she] is committed to the belief that all humankind, of whatever colour or creed, is "in His image" and is possessed of an inherent human dignity and worthiness. Rabbi Malkiel Kotler, dean of the Haredi Lakewood Yeshiva, in the commentary entitled 'The Real Truth About the Talmud' writes "Our philosophy asserts that every human being is created in the image of the Lord and the primacy of integrity and honesty in all dealings without exception. I strongly repudiate any assertions in the name of Judaism that do not represent and reflect this philosophy." Rabbi David Weiss Outside the Israeli Consulate at Rally Co-sponsored by Islamic Center of Jersey City, and related groups in October 2000, stipulated that "The Jewish people are commanded by Almighty G-d to live in peace with all peoples and nations on the face of the globe." Rabbi Weiss affirmed that "Our national agenda [as Jews] is simple -- It is to humbly worship the Creator at all times," by in part, showing empathy, and respect for each other in a spirit of mutuality. "As Torah Jews" Rabbi Weiss says "we are called upon to feel and express our sense of compassion when any person or group of human beings suffers. This includes the current suffering of the Lebanese, and the on-going sufferings of the Palestinians. In the words of King David, the Psalmist, "And His Mercy is upon all His creatures. All men are created in the image of G-d." Rabbi Weiss further made representation that "When we look at the cauldron of suffering which the Middle East has become for the Palestinian people, we stand back aghast -- homes and lives lost, family suffering, the list goes on and on." Why have the tragic events of last 52 years come to pass? Rabbi Weiss indicates that "The answer lies in one word - Zionism." Zionism is in fact, a form of neo-fascism. Having had many relatives who lost their lives in the Holocaust, the hypocritical Israeli elites now inflict their own brand of neo-fascism, in the form of militaristic and racist Zionism. Rabbi Weiss indicates that "Zionism has misled some Jews into thinking that there exists a need to pursue aggressive policies against the Palestinian people (and other peoples in Middle East) to steal their land and persecute their people." This is hardly surprising as it is a creed in direct opposition to the basics of Jewish faith, which pivots on the enlightened messages of the Torah. Rabbi Weiss refers to Zionism as "an embarrassment to the Torah Jew.", and further stipulates that "Our prayers for the Messianic era are centered on the future -- a future when G-d alone, without any human involvement, will redeem all humankind, who will then worship Him together in peace. The Torah's ways are peace. Indeed, furthermore, centuries ago, Micah the Prophet, offered a vision of peace. No longer ruled by war and violence, humans would live together, unharmed, and content. Lo yisa goi el goi cherev lo yilmedu od milchama. Bombings not the actions of a "Jewish" State.... The bombing of Lebanon is therefore not the actions of a "Jewish" State. The bombing of Lebanon is also not even the actions of even a State concerned with protecting "the lives of soldiers", or even simply 'national boundaries'. The lives of all Israeli soldiers that are now significantly further threatened, could have been spared by a truly responsible Jewish response, to such kidnapping. Indeed, arguably, the kidnapping would have not have occurred in the first place, if the ways of peace expressed in the Torah had been embraced by an ethical Israeli State governance. The bombing of Lebanon also certainly did not make Israeli citizens feel more secure, as retaliatory military strikes are unleashed into Israel from southern Lebanon. The mythology of the "fight against terrorism" According to reports in the mass-media, that include the Zionist and neo-conservative CanWest Global, Israel had to act in the way that it has militarily perpetrated, in order to deal with "Hezbollah terrorists". However, it is self-evident that this is propaganda. Rather, the best and also ethical way to deal with such a criminal elements associated with Hezbollah (and other groups like Hamas), is to alleviate the atrocious oppressive socio-economic conditions perpetrated by Israeli elites, in the areas where Hezbollah gets its recruits. Such an alternative critical appreciation is inspired by the wisdom of the Jewish Torah. However, the actions of the Israeli elites, (along with their U.S. neo-conservative backers), are not aimed at combating terrorism. On the contrary, it is apparent that these elites seek to substantively "fan the flames" of so-called "terrorism", so that these elites can have a contrived justification to inflict more oppression, and human suffering. It is apparent that these elites have sold out, and have exchanged the Torah and the Bible, for the quest of the pursuit of a plan of oppression, bullying, provocation, and "World Domination". Architects of War seek a "New World Order" When Newt Gingrich indicated in the U.S. media, that "we are already into World War III", he was simply expressing the apparent 'wishful thinking' of the hideous intelligence of neo-conservative elites. These elites talk of "anti-Terrorism", while engaging in conduct that provokes so-called "terrorism". In the apparent mentality of elites, a World War III is not to be 'avoided', but to be carefully "planned", alongside Corporate "Globalization", so that the "right people" can rule the Earth, and control, as well as, use, its resources. In the apparent 'wishful thinking' for World War III, betrayed by Gingrich's comments, such a War would necessitate permanent "martial law", so that "liberal democracy" can be done away with, once and for all. This process has already been taking place in the United States, and other societies, under the elite contrived so-called "War on Terrorism". It is apparent that fascistic neo-conservatives that include 'anti-Jewish' Israeli elites, deplore the sharing of power with the "inferior races of the world" domestically, and through democratic inspired fora like the United Nations. In the view of neo-conservatives , World War III would usher into the world a "Golden Area" of jingoistic totalitarian rule under the direct of "rich" owners of capital, who would consolidate the so-called "New World Order". In the process, the elites who prevail over an agenda of oppression via war and "Globalization" believe that the Lebanese and other Muslims, whether Hezbollah or not, are all guilty of being "inferior races". The senseless bombing of innocent civilians in Lebanon by Israeli elites, backed by U.S. neo-conservatives, can only be explained if, these elites do not value the lives of innocent human beings, who are culturally different peoples. This is the apparent psychopath-like fascist prism that now shapes the seekers of a "New World Order", in which Lebanon is another sought step to that sought goal.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Right, because the Hezbullah refuses to keep its military seperated form the civilians (fire from civilian areas, hide in civilian areas, use civilian apartments to store rockets, missles, ammo, and supplies) Israel, and not the Hezbullah are to blame when something happens in those civilian areas, right, is this your train of thinking?

The point i'm making is that Israel has taken out (in one instance) the top 4 stories of a 12 story building and I question why they did that. I would imagine that there are regular civilians staying indoors in their housing, and the building is not a 'sniper house' meaning that no one is shooting at any Israeli from there, so why destroy the place? if they were going after a Hilbollah HQ, why couldn't they just go in with ground troops and raid the place. Any opposition army will fight on the street, so they are then legitimate targets (I do agree with 'a' response by Israel, but not 'the' repsonse).
In terms of storeing rocket etc in the appartments, what proof is being supplied? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not the case as it probably is, but it's easy to just bomb indescrimitably, and then say later 'that was a rocket store' or 'that was a rocket factory'. I've seen that response by the Israeli military for years, and while it might be true, I think at time's it might not.

Do you think that Israel should pay for the reconstruction of Lebanon when this is over?

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Originally posted by Epicurus Yoepus, this will probably be my last post for a while, and not because I don't enjoy discussing this with you, because I do, but because, and like I alluded to in my initial post, I have very little time to dedicate to posting on TA on matters that require a back and forth discussion (not because I don't want to, but because again, this becomes time consuming).

Sure, I understand. That was my longest post in a while too. I try and keep them short and uninformative ( :P ) because those post are quick. These post today did take a great deal out of my productivity.

Despite that, even if we don't debate, whatever you post will be enjoyed. Its refereshing to hear valid opinion from the otherside from intelligent people.

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Originally posted by skot_e The point i'm making is that Israel has taken out (in one instance) the top 4 stories of a 12 story building and I question why they did that.

Much like you I can only assume the reasons for many of the IDF actions. As an Israeli I can associate with the thinking of many of its leaders and military so I would realize it wouldn't intentionally target a non-value non-military civilan target. But an instance of that did happen the other day when Israeli warplanes struck two electrical work trucks in a Christian sector of Beruit mistaking them for rocket launcher trucks. So those type of things happen. In a war you get a lot of intelligence and you don't have a lot of time to act on it or to verify everything, so many of it rests on gut calls of appropriate commanders.

Now if you were to limit those same commanders to never target any apartment building etc., unless you had the most outstanding intelligence sources I think you vastly limit your abilities and have allowed Hizbullah a victory in that battleground. So the flip side of it isn't pretty either. Its not an easy situation.

It was much easier in the 18th century when European armies would round up all their, men dress them up in fancy customes, go out to a nice open field, line up all the men up against each and start killing one another so you can decide who wins the war and gets to make the demands.

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Do you think that Israel should pay for the reconstruction of Lebanon when this is over?

I never though I would agree with Nietzsche so admittely, but no, I don't think the loser should dictate terms.

Do you think Israel should bill Lebanon for the cost of the bombs and jet fuel it expenses in expelling Hezbullah from Lebanon?

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Originally posted by psychosomatica Gonna keep this short... The IDF is also known to have used civilian shields. fact.

Proof please

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Originally posted by ogvh5150

about your third article, first off - this isn't a religious war, as for the rest of it, refer to Shakka's first article in this page as a response.

p.s. which religions don't advocate peaceloving to the same extent? which religion's adherents follow it completely?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Much like you I can only assume the reasons for many of the IDF actions. As an Israeli I can associate with the thinking of many of its leaders and military so I would realize it wouldn't intentionally target a non-value non-military civilan target. But an instance of that did happen the other day when Israeli warplanes struck two electrical work trucks in a Christian sector of Beruit mistaking them for rocket launcher trucks. So those type of things happen. In a war you get a lot of intelligence and you don't have a lot of time to act on it or to verify everything, so many of it rests on gut calls of appropriate commanders.

yeah I saw that on the news (BBC?) and i understand how the mistake could occur, tho it appeared they missed as the truck looked intact to me??? I'm also unsure if it was just edited out, but there seemed to be no warning of the incoming missile, like the 'whistle' of the falling missile? Maybe that's just a hollywood thing, but i thought not? Never been in the situation to know.

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Now if you were to limit those same commanders to never target any apartment building etc., unless you had the most outstanding intelligence sources I think you vastly limit your abilities and have allowed Hizbullah a victory in that battleground. So the flip side of it isn't pretty either. Its not an easy situation.

Agreed

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I never though I would agree with Nietzsche so admittely, but no, I don't think the loser should dictate terms. Do you think Israel should bill Lebanon for the cost of the bombs and jet fuel it expenses in expelling Hezbullah from Lebanon?

Whose Nietzsche?
Maybe they can bill each other . Seriously tho, I think Israel show pay for re-con, just as the US is paying in Iraq.

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Originally posted by skot_e Whose Nietzsche?

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Originally posted by Psy-T

Am I missing something here?

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Originally posted by skot_e Am I missing something here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche

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Dear World: I understand that you are upset by us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry. (Outraged?) Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset by us. Today, it is the "brutal repression of the Palestinians"; yesterday it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we the Jewish people -- upset you. We upset a German people who elected Hitler and upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians and Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. For centuries, we upset a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through inquisitions, and we upset the archenemy of the church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit. And it is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you in a manner of speaking and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you and disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you (and thus love you)- and have you love us and so, we decided to come home - home to the same land we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset. Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your pogroms and inquisitions and crusades and holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state, we continue to upset you. You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The "radical" Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered tens of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929. Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots between 1936-39? Was it because Arabs were upset over 1967? And when you, dear world, proposed a UN Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a "Palestinian State" alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried "no" and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that "upset" caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of "upset" then? The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who when they had all the territories they now demand be given to them for their state , attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "itbach-al-yahud" (Massacre the Jew!) that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream -- destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today, but we should not "repress" them. Dear world, you stood by during the holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians dream daily of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

"Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes." - Harry S Truman

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Originally posted by dennis Proof please

jeeezz... 2 second google search.. there are a lot more out there...
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/05/10/isrlpa3914.htm

edit: this is the site i originally came across
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/Timeline_of_Events.asp

also i would like to thank Yoepus and Epicurus for raising the quality of this thread

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Originally posted by skot_e Am I missing something here?

the father of modern philosophy: "god is dead!"

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Originally posted by psychosomatica This is what I was unable to convey earlier in the thread in my discussions with firestarter. What Yoepus said is all I wanted to hear. I don't believe it is possible to take that statement out of context, but I suggest others read the entire paragraph if they haven't yet.

Sorry, I'll convey better

There are many formats of war, and they vary accross culture to culture from history to history.

For example, you have the standard western approach, of army's and battles etc. etc.

Then you had the ancient chinese approach of ambush, and stealth.

I'm probably wrong, but from my knowledge, sniping started in India.

And you also have a format known as "terrorism" which invovles mostly subterfuge, sabotage, kidnappings, and demands etc.

I find it stupid when people say that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do war. Terrorism is just one way of fighting a war when a bunch of people who are very strong in their beliefs can't get many tanks, planes, and battleships to fight an army. I don't think it's "wrong" but i don't think it's right.

Nor do i think it's necessarily "wrong" because it's often targetting civilian people. The reality as i see it is that all wars hurt innocent civilians. I think terrorism just does it more directly, and without any regret of it. Even conventional and socially "acceptable" forms of warfare mightn't target civilians, but inevitebly it does hurt a country's economy and infrastructure. Even if a nation never get's one bomb or explosion on it's own land, it is certainly diverting economic resources away from the life style of it's peoples.

It's very easy to say that terrorists are mad angry evil-doers or something. That makes it easier for us to dehumanise these people and justify whatever actions we put in place to stop them. The reality as i see it, however, is that there's a lot of people who can sympathise with terrorists, and can find a real cause for support and joining up. That doesn't make them mad or crazy or angry or evil-doers. These people who are likely to join up in terrorist groups are the ones we need to target and i think ask ourselves: why do they do it?

The way i see it, is that you can't continue to figh terrorism via the current conventional format of war. There has to be brainstorming, and a divesion of resources away from the conventional military to one that fights terrorism (such as investing heavily in INtellgence Agencies).

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Originally posted by tathi the father of modern philosophy

That would be Descartes, actually

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Originally posted by Psy-T about your third article, first off - this isn't a religious war

As far as you can tell so far. There' no denying that any new conflicts will have religious overtones. But let's ignore the possibility of Israeli infiltration of Hizbullah.

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, as for the rest of it, refer to Shakka's first article in this page as a response.

Woe is Israel. Let's forget about the millions of other people that have been terrorised or killed by their governments or their neighbors in one form or another.

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p.s. which religions don't advocate peaceloving to the same extent? which religion's adherents follow it completely?

All religions teach, preach or condone tolerance or acceptance of the stranger. It's those that are in power that convince people that what they are doing otherwise is in the service of their god.

But I am a goy, wtf do I know.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 As far as you can tell so far. There' no denying that any new conflicts will have religious overtones. But let's ignore the possibility of Israeli infiltration of Hizbullah.

you must be working with quite a wide definition for religious wars then, overtones of anything exist in mostly everything. this war is neither against a certain religion nor fueled by a certain religion.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Woe is Israel. Let's forget about the millions of other people that have been terrorised or killed by their governments or their neighbors in one form or another.

somehow i doubt israel has managed to terrorize millions of people in it's 50something years of existence.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 All religions teach, preach or condone tolerance or acceptance of the stranger. It's those that are in power that convince people that what they are doing otherwise is in the service of their god.

is this supposed to somehow contradict my point?

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 But I am a goy, wtf do I know.

wow, good for you, so am i.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira That would be Descartes, actually

too good for me sensei

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T wow, good for you, so am i.

wtf, ur not Jewish?

15,000 people marched in Sydney today in protest of Israels bombing of Lebanon.

quote:

wtf, ur not Jewish?

i think he's got too much sense to be religious

Yeah I think there were protests right around Australia, certainly in Adelaide too, tho not sure of numbers.
Israel is reorted to be calling up the reservists, maybe those in Israel can give us more info on this. I hope that when the troops go in looking for the weapons stashes etc that they are more disciplined than the US troops who have disgraced the image of their nation in Iraq. I don't wat to see the same problems that's for sure.

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