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-- Breaking News: Isreal and Lebanon at War?
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| Originally posted by tathi also i would like to thank Yoepus and Epicurus for raising the quality of this thread  |
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| Originally posted by psychosomatica Gonna keep this short... The IDF is also known to have used civilian shields. fact. |
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| Originally posted by tathi i think he's got too much sense to be religious  |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 So you say. Just because you say so doesn't make it a fact. |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 You read what you want to read. I said others as in other countries. Other countries are either terrorising or killing their neighbors or their own citizens. But read what you want to read. So let's forget about the Sudan, the Congo, China, etc. yeah let's forget them. Let's forget about the untold millions that suffer throughout the world and concentrate on a patch of sand. |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 Read and respond however you see fit. |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 I wasn't talking to you in the singular form. I made a general statement. |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 I won't respond to your comments after this. Seems like you only want to pick an argument after reading what you feel is fit to argue by implying I am typing something other than what I have already typed. |
where's the post i just replied to?
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| Originally posted by Abhay jewishism is like... beyond religion. It's identity, race, culture etc. From my knowledge, People are like so attatched and drawn into it by society, it'd be so hard to get out of it. Which is why i'm surprised. |
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| Originally posted by tathi i think he's got too much sense to be religious |
now that the US is sending some weapons to israel to further its campaing against the arab world (see story below), it occurred to me that this war may be part of a US plan to permanently destabilize the middle east. afer all, how would it look it to the arab world if the US, invaded a second arab country?
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| NYT July 22, 2006 Weapons U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis By DAVID S. CLOUD and HELENE COOPER WASHINGTON, July 21 � The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday. The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran�s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah. The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said. But Israel�s request for expedited delivery of the satellite and laser-guided bombs was described as unusual by some military officers, and as an indication that Israel still had a long list of targets in Lebanon to strike. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday that she would head to Israel on Sunday at the beginning of a round of Middle Eastern diplomacy. The original plan was to include a stop to Cairo in her travels, but she did not announce any stops in Arab capitals. Instead, the meeting of Arab and European envoys planned for Cairo will take place in Italy, Western diplomats said. While Arab governments initially criticized Hezbollah for starting the fight with Israel in Lebanon, discontent is rising in Arab countries over the number of civilian casualties in Lebanon, and the governments have become wary of playing host to Ms. Rice until a cease-fire package is put together. To hold the meetings in an Arab capital before a diplomatic solution is reached, said Martin S. Indyk, a former American ambassador to Israel, �would have identified the Arabs as the primary partner of the United States in this project at a time where Hezbollah is accusing the Arab leaders of providing cover for the continuation of Israel�s military operation.� The decision to stay away from Arab countries for now is a markedly different strategy from the shuttle diplomacy that previous administrations used to mediate in the Middle East. �I have no interest in diplomacy for the sake of returning Lebanon and Israel to the status quo ante,� Ms. Rice said Friday. �I could have gotten on a plane and rushed over and started shuttling around, and it wouldn�t have been clear what I was shuttling to do.� Before Ms. Rice heads to Israel on Sunday, she will join President Bush at the White House for discussions on the Middle East crisis with two Saudi envoys, Saud al-Faisal, the foreign minister, and Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the secretary general of the National Security Council. The new American arms shipment to Israel has not been announced publicly, and the officials who described the administration�s decision to rush the munitions to Israel would discuss it only after being promised anonymity. The officials included employees of two government agencies, and one described the shipment as just one example of a broad array of armaments that the United States has long provided Israel. One American official said the shipment should not be compared to the kind of an �emergency resupply� of dwindling Israeli stockpiles that was provided during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, when an American military airlift helped Israel recover from early Arab victories. David Siegel, a spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, said: �We have been using precision-guided munitions in order to neutralize the military capabilities of Hezbollah and to minimize harm to civilians. As a rule, however, we do not comment on Israel�s defense acquisitions.� Israel�s need for precision munitions is driven in part by its strategy in Lebanon, which includes destroying hardened underground bunkers where Hezbollah leaders are said to have taken refuge, as well as missile sites and other targets that would be hard to hit without laser and satellite-guided bombs. Pentagon and military officials declined to describe in detail the size and contents of the shipment to Israel, and they would not say whether the munitions were being shipped by cargo aircraft or some other means. But an arms-sale package approved last year provides authority for Israel to purchase from the United States as many as 100 GBU-28�s, which are 5,000-pound laser-guided bombs intended to destroy concrete bunkers. The package also provides for selling satellite-guided munitions. An announcement in 2005 that Israel was eligible to buy the �bunker buster� weapons described the GBU-28 as �a special weapon that was developed for penetrating hardened command centers located deep underground.� The document added, �The Israeli Air Force will use these GBU-28�s on their F-15 aircraft.� American officials said that once a weapons purchase is approved, it is up to the buyer nation to set up a timetable. But one American official said normal procedures usually do not include rushing deliveries within days of a request. That was done because Israel is a close ally in the midst of hostilities, the official said. Although Israel had some precision guided bombs in its stockpile when the campaign in Lebanon began, the Israelis may not have taken delivery of all the weapons they were entitled to under the 2005 sale. Israel said its air force had dropped 23 tons of explosives Wednesday night alone in Beirut, in an effort to penetrate what was believed to be a bunker used by senior Hezbollah officials. A senior Israeli official said Friday that the attacks to date had degraded Hezbollah�s military strength by roughly half, but that the campaign could go on for two more weeks or longer. �We will stay heavily with the air campaign,� he said. �There�s no time limit. We will end when we achieve our goals.� The Bush administration announced Thursday a military equipment sale to Saudi Arabia, worth more than $6 billion, a move that may in part have been aimed at deflecting inevitable Arab government anger at the decision to supply Israel with munitions in the event that effort became public. On Friday, Bush administration officials laid out their plans for the diplomatic strategy that Ms. Rice will pursue. In Rome, the United States will try to hammer out a diplomatic package that will offer Lebanon incentives under the condition that a United Nations resolution, which calls for the disarming of Hezbollah, is implemented. Diplomats will also try to figure out the details around an eventual international peacekeeping force, and which countries will contribute to it. Germany and Russia have both indicated that they would be willing to contribute forces; Ms. Rice said the United States was unlikely to. Implicit in the eventual diplomatic package is a cease-fire. But a senior American official said it remained unclear whether, under such a plan, Hezbollah would be asked to retreat from southern Lebanon and commit to a cease-fire, or whether American diplomats might depend on Israel�s continued bombardment to make Hezbollah�s acquiescence irrelevant. Daniel Ayalon, Israel�s ambassador to Washington, said that Israel would not rule out an international force to police the borders of Lebanon and Syria and to patrol southern Lebanon, where Hezbollah has had a stronghold. But he said that Israel was first determined to take out Hezbollah�s command and control centers and weapons stockpiles. Thom Shanker contributed reporting for this article. |
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| Originally posted by Spacey Orange now that the US is sending some weapons to israel to further its campaing against the arab world (see story below), it occurred to me that this war may be part of a US plan to permanently destabilize the middle east. afer all, how would it look it to the arab world if the US, invaded a second arab country? Source |
Hezbollah hurts it's enemy: Israel...
Israel hurts mostly Lebanon...
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| Originally posted by Abhay Israel hurts mostly Lebanon... |
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| Originally posted by Spacey Orange afer all, how would it look it to the arab world if the US, invaded a second arab country? |
What's good for the goose...
It's fucking amazing how majority of the world press perceives and openly describes the conflict in Israel. One who is not "up to date" on the Middle East crisis, history of Israel and its conflicts would almost deduce that poor ol' Lebanon is being beat up by the bully of the Middle East - Israel.
What the same fucking sources, be it US, British, or other shit rags fail to mention is that the same fucking thing has been happening in Iraq for the last 3 years - yet I don't see the same outrage in the streets about US war in Iraq, as I see it in Lebanon.
If anything, war in Iraq has been the biggest fuck up in the history of the United States. We had no business in there, it was a counter-ballance to Iran's ambition, plus US could have saved its credibility for a worthy cause. Now, US has lost all credibility, its troops morale is at all-time low, probably surpassing Vietnam, and majority of Americans have gone 180 from supporting the war to being against it.
Now, you take the conflict in Lebanon and take conflict in Iraq and there are completely different reactions around the world. What a bunch of hypocrytical, Israel-hating ******s make their living by expressing their poluted and biased views for everyone to nod their brainless heads. People are fucking crowd animals and Jews, who never have been anyone's top priority, are being accused of using excessive measures.
Fuck that shit. And that I can't wait until reporters and management at that fucking pinkie shit rag, hardly good enough to wipe your ass with - New York Times, will be prosecuted for treason. Freedom of speech my ass - that paper is down right fucking anti-American.
Sometimes I question if freedom of press is such a good thing... there's got to be some limits to the madness.
My mother just arrived from a 2 month vacation in France to see her family, and she came back telling me that the Israeli soldiers that were kidnapped were IN Lebanon when they got kidnapped... is this right at all? Or is the french media fucked up
Yes they were captured in the Lebanese side. But beware of the self-proclaimed foreign policy and military analysts:
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| Associated Press Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers By JOSEPH PANOSSIAN , 07.12.2006, 05:41 AM The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity. The Israeli military would not confirm the report. Earlier, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called an emergency Cabinet meeting and said Lebanese guerrillas would pay a "heavy price" for Wednesday's attacks. "These are difficult days for the state of Israel and its citizens," Olmert said. "There are people ... who are trying to test our resolve. They will fail and they will pay a heavy price for their actions." |
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| Israeli troops crossed into a southwestern sector of Lebanon, near where the soldiers were seized, trying to keep their captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli security officials said. Hezbollah said it destroyed an Israeli tank as it tried to cross the frontier. Hezbollah captures 2 Israeli soldiers |
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| Selon la police libanaise, les deux soldats ont �t� captur�s en territoire libanais, dans la r�gion de A�ta al-Chaab pr�s de la fronti�re, alors que la t�l�vision isra�lienne a indiqu� qu'ils avaient �t� captur�s en territoire isra�lien. Babelfish: According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of A�ta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory. Liban: le Hezbollah capture deux soldats isra�liens, sept autres tu�s |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Are they though? Do you smite the person sucking the poison from your snake bite? |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Are they though? Do you smite the person sucking the poison from your snake bite? You'll notice that all the other Arab states are pretty quiet about all this. Could it be that even they understand that the Hizbullah doesn't serve any purpose and legitimately forward their people? |
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| Originally posted by Sunsnail My mother just arrived from a 2 month vacation in France to see her family, and she came back telling me that the Israeli soldiers that were kidnapped were IN Lebanon when they got kidnapped... is this right at all? Or is the french media fucked up |
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| Originally posted by qussay ^ that info it true , its the US media thats messed up ... ! |
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| Originally posted by Sunsnail My mother just arrived from a 2 month vacation in France to see her family, and she came back telling me that the Israeli soldiers that were kidnapped were IN Lebanon when they got kidnapped... is this right at all? Or is the french media fucked up |
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| Originally posted by Abhay Hezbollah hurts it's enemy: Israel... Israel hurts mostly Lebanon... |
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| Originally posted by sabi10 the media just fucked everything up my friend, they were on patrol from the israeli side near to israeli villige! the terorists attack their hammers, cross the INTERNATIONAL border and take those soldiers to lebanon. |
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| Professor Martin Kramer says that he does not know, and therefore he cannot answer, whether the war will rip apart the delicate fabric of Lebanese society. But, he says, "I expect that it will shatter the fragile fiction of Lebanese politics." A world-renowned expert on Lebanon, Kramer is a research fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and a former director of the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies at Tel Aviv University. Why do you think this crisis is happening? "Hezbollah's hubris has created an opportunity for Israel. "Since Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon, Hezbollah has basked in the illusion that it defeated Israel - that it somehow discovered a path to victory that had eluded Arab governments and the Palestinian movement. It began to puff itself up, as the only force willing and able to stand up to Israel. Hezbollah lost its respect for Israeli power, and began to portray Israel as unable to sustain a protracted conflict. "Nasrallah allowed a personality cult to develop around himself, and Hezbollah marketed him as the only strategic genius in the Arab world. Increasingly, it would seem that the higher echelons in Hezbollah began to believe their own propaganda. "I doubt Hezbollah expected the Israeli reaction to be as swift, extensive and destructive as it has been. Hezbollah probably believed it would score a few points in Arab public opinion by a cross-border operation, and that it would make one more incremental change in the rules of the game. "It was a strategic miscalculation. Hezbollah didn't internalize changes in the broader strategic climate. The top regional issue today is Iran's nuclear drive, not the fate of Hamas or the Palestinian issue. If Hezbollah had understood this fully, it would have laid very low until needed by Iran in a mega-crisis with the United States. At that point, its threats against Israel would have been added to the overall deterrent capabilities of Iran, and might have caused the United States to think twice. "Hezbollah apparently didn't understand this. If Iran was directly involved in the decision, it also shows an erosion of discipline in Iran's own decision-making process. Iran had nothing to gain from this little adventure, and a lot to lose. It may well be that President Ahmadinejad's rhetoric is beginning to cloud judgment in Tehran. "In any case, it is in the interests of Israel and the United States to deal with the Hezbollah threat now, and not later in the midst of a far more dangerous crisis over Iran's nuclear plans. So a war now to degrade Hezbollah is a shared Israel-U.S. interest, which means that Israel can wage it without many constraints. "Hezbollah now finds itself spending all sorts of military assets that were supposed to serve a much more important purpose than freeing a few Lebanese prisoners or winning a few propaganda points. These are assets it probably won't be able to replenish, and their very use exposes them and makes them vulnerable. "In sum, Hezbollah overplayed its hand, and Israel is taking full advantage of its mistake." What is the way to end the crisis? And can Israel defeat Hezbollah? "Ending the crisis is obviously not an end in itself. The objective has to be to reduce Hezbollah to a negligible factor in larger calculations, to degrade and deplete its capabilities, to the point where it's about as significant a constraint as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt or Jordan. It will take some time to reverse the years of neglect, and Hezbollah will not allow the halo around it to be smashed without fighting back. But Israel has a U.S. license to take its time now and get it right, and it would be foolish not to use it. "In any event, Israel has no choice. Islamism has come to fill the space that used to be occupied by Arab nationalism in Nasser's time: an ideology of rejection, resistance and false promise of a Middle East without Israel. Israel's withdrawals from Lebanon and Gaza, whatever their merits, have only fed this Islamism with lore of sacrifice and victory. The Islamists have a narrative, and they think the world conforms to it. The narrative is based on a very partial reading of reality. It has to be defeated, just as Nasser's narrative had to be defeated. It took the 1967 war to demolish the Arab nationalist/Nasserist narrative. Israel has no choice but to deliver a blow sufficient to destroy the Islamist narrative, in which Hezbollah looms large. "Incredibly, Nasrallah is making the same mistakes as Nasser. By puffing himself up, he isn't deterring Israel; at this point, he's only making himself and his movement a bigger and more legitimate target. Hezbollah has become a prisoner of its own myth, which is that at any moment it can go one-on-one against Israel - and win. It can't, and now is the best opportunity to prove it - to Lebanese Shiites, to all Lebanese and to the rest of the Arab-Muslim world. "At any moment in time, it is Israel that can turn Nasrallah either into a cinder or a shadow figure like Osama bin Laden, reduced to sending defiant missives from some basement or cave. And Israel can scatter the big chiefs of Hezbollah like the United States scattered the Taliban. This has to be the objective - bin Ladenization of Nasrallah, Talibanization of Hezbollah - and it is not beyond reach. Of course, bin Laden and the Taliban still exist, but they aren't a regional or global factor. That is the objective here as well. "Any number of developments could threaten this scenario. It's not so much what Hezbollah might do, as what mistakes Israel might make. The most obvious pitfalls are too much 'collateral damage' or a reoccupation of part of Lebanon. Either could drain Israel legitimacy, sap American support and leave Israel isolated. Since this is a new government headed by a new prime minister, it's impossible to predict whether they will know how to handle the unexpected twists that are inevitable in war." How popular, influential and strong is Hezbollah in Lebanon? "Lebanon is a divided society. Hezbollah's power base is limited to the Shiite community, and even there, allegiance is not total. "Hezbollah basked in the admiration of many Lebanese after Israel's withdrawal, but that aura has been eroded steadily over the past few years. This is because, following Israel's withdrawal, Hezbollah's continued 'resistance' along the border fell outside the national consensus. "As a result, we have seen more and more political figures in Lebanon criticize Hezbollah. The Nasrallah personality cult has been a way to keep the faithful in line. Not so long ago, Hezbollah thugs took to the streets after a Lebanese television station broadcast a satire of Nasrallah. The mob burned tires and cars. The episode showed that Nasrallah's moral standing had slipped, and that the movement had been reduced to intimidation to keep up the facade. "The point here is that Hezbollah is no longer the darling of Lebanese nationalism, and its recent conduct has made it increasingly look like something foreign. This is certainly the message that is being sent by leaders of most other factions in the country: that Hezbollah has usurped the power of decision-making on war and peace from the legitimately constituted government, and that it is acting outside the Lebanese national interest. The more Israel intensifies its attacks, the more that criticism is likely to spread - even among Shiites. I do not see the country rallying around Hezbollah." Do you expect this crisis will tear apart the fragile fabric of Lebanese society? "I don't know about the society, but I do expect it to tear apart the fragile fiction of Lebanese politics. An independent Lebanon is incompatible with an extra-legal, extra-territorial status for any militia. This fact could be papered over before; now it is exposed for all to see. "Of course, no one faction in Lebanon is in a position to disarm Hezbollah, and neither is the government. Only Shiite opinion can achieve this. So it is up to Israel to demolish Hezbollah's argument that its arms deter Israel. Israel must demonstrate the opposite: that Hezbollah's arms invite Israeli attack, especially against Shiites. Only if the Shiites themselves realize this, and only if they become the main source of criticism of Hezbollah's strategy, will Hezbollah feel compelled to modify it. This will not happen overnight; it could take months or years. "What is certain is that Lebanon is better prepared to confront its devils now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. There is a new generation that does not want to go back to the old days. It is they who will have to come out in the streets to make yet another Cedar Revolution - this time, one in which the Shiites have a predominant role." The hothouse To understand how Hezbollah was transformed from a marginal organization - a status to which Prof. Kramer would like to see it revert - we have to go back to the time tunnel of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, and indeed three years earlier, to the Islamic Revolution in Iran. After seizing power, the aides of the revolution's fomenter and leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, established an organization called Hezbollah (Party of God). Its role was to impose Islamic law and order and to sow fear among the residents of Tehran. From there the idea was conveyed, with the help of the revolution's exporters, the Revolutionary Guards, to the small, weak Shiite community in Lebanon. Moving with the ideas was Mossad man Eliezer Tzafrir, the head of the espionage agency's Tevel mission in Iran in the last days of the Shah's rule and an eyewitness to the seizure of power by the Khomeinists. He returned to Israel and in 1983, he was appointed head of the Mossad mission in Beirut until its closure the following year. "At first we didn't know about the existence of Hezbollah and we paid no attention to it," says Tzafrir, who recently published a book about his Lebanon experience. "There was a terrorist attack in the U.S. Embassy in Beirut and then, in 1983, another in the Marine headquarters, neither of which anyone took responsibility for, but it was clear to us that a Shiite Islamist terror group was developing, under the inspiration of Iran." So the monster grew right in front of your eyes? "At one stage there was a declaration of Hezbollah's existence. The founder and spiritual leader was Sheikh Fadlallah. But from that time until now, he has acted as a spiritual figure who issues religious rulings. Alongside him grassroots people began to become prominent, such as Abbas Mussawi" - who later became the organization's secretary-general and was assassinated in 1992 by missiles fired from an Israel Air Force helicopter in southern Lebanon - "and Imad Mughniyah," a Shiite Fatah man who remained in Lebanon after the PLO left Beirut for Tunisia and joined Hezbollah, becoming a key operations officer who is responsible mainly for terrorist attacks overseas. "We tried to penetrate Hezbollah, but that was difficult even then, and it remains so today. The Lebanese forces that were our allies and had the capability to obtain information about developments in Lebanon also tried unsuccessfully to put out feelers. Neither we nor the Lebanese forces had enough data and operational intelligence to evaluate Hezbollah correctly." So in this matter, as in many others, you relied on the security apparatus of the Christian forces led by Eli Hubeika (who was responsible for the Sabra-Chatila massacre in 1982 and the liquidation of thousands of Palestinians, and years later hooked up with the Syrians and became a minister in the Lebanese government, before being killed in mysterious circumstances a few years ago)? "With all the disgust I feel today, I have to say honestly that in the year when I was head of mission, I was a friend of Eli Hubeika's. We ate and drank together two or three times a week and we drew on him and his people to obtain information. I also admit that we, and I, overestimated the true ability of the Christians. Looking back, Hubeika possessed traits that, in my view, represent even what is happening in Lebanon today: Human life is worthless in their eyes. Hubeika and his people had a custom of detaining people and asking them to say the word 'tomato' in an Arab accent. If the person said 'banadora,' he was clearly a Lebanese and was released, but if he said 'bandore,' he was a Palestinian and they executed him." In other words, this was another failure of the Mossad? "It's true that our ties with the Christians influenced Israel's operational activity in Lebanon. But the Mossad was not the only body that operated in Lebanon. The bulk of the activity was carried out by the Israel Defense Forces. And in any event, this was Israeli government policy. To claim that Israel created or helped to create Hezbollah shows a misunderstanding of the Lebanese and regional reality. It recalls the claim that the Military Government created Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO. Both Hamas and Hezbollah are Islamic movements that represent important currents in the societies in which they are active." In your opinion, can the mistakes of the past be rectified today, more than 20 years later? "Yes. Hezbollah started to believe its own propaganda. Israel can and should attack and diminish Hezbollah and bring about its demise as a significant militant organization." Not realistic Dr. Reuven Erlich has lower expectations. "Experience shows that there are no solutions for the Lebanon tangle," he says. "Anyone who talks about dismantling Hezbollah's capability is not being realistic." Erlich was the intelligence officer of the Liaison Unit to Lebanon in the 1980s and afterward served as the deputy of Uri Lubrani, the coordinator of government activities in Lebanon, and one of the shapers of Israel's Lebanon policy. Lubrani declined to be interviewed for this article because he is still an adviser to the defense minister. But those who spoke with him in the past week say he is furious, because defense ministers and governments did not heed his warnings. As of this writing there are reports Iran's Revolutionary Guard commander is now involved in assisting Nasrallah and that Iran air-lifted additional rocketry to Hezballah fearig the Abu Ad Duhur military airfield would be bombed. Israeli special forces are making progress against stiff resistance and in difficult terrain. Hezballah is on the defensive. Israel provided safe passage thru its lines for Lebanese it warned to leave Tyre. Hezballah is trying to restrain them in order to claim more Lebanese civilian casualties when Israel attacks Hezballah locations etc. |
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| Originally posted by jonSun Well at least Hezballa croosed the border & kidnapped sodiers & not civilians likw the IDF has been doing for 40 yrs. |
Very interesting read, Shakka, thanks for that.
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