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I masturbate every time I read Atlas Shrugged. Don't even ask about what goes on with the Fountainhead.

holy shit *picks penis back up*

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Before you call it a straw man, maybe you should check and see whether any of those distinctions have anything to do with his argument.

Indeed, Cliff, I mentioned what we think suicide is just so you knew what we are talking about but made you a favour and limited the discussion to what you Cliffly think suicide is.

quote:

Apparently, you seem to limit suicide to all scenarios that resemble your uncle's death in a way you can recognise, so I'm not going to bother coming up with all possible examples, and I'm going to start from the following hypothesis A guy shot himself

Isn't this what this is all about?

But, I see what's going on now. You seemed to be shielding your arguments behind the claim that "suicide is inherently selfish" and all I showed is that this criticism is unfounded because suicide has little to do with selfishness/selflessness even in the context you gave us.

It's become painfully obvious that this discussion is not about suicide, but about your deceased uncle, and that it's comfortable for you to label him as a selfish bastard so you can keep some healthy distance.

That's why you have a million ways to show us we're wrong, though none of them is sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter To be honest, I think the whole argument is rather pointless because it depends on the assumption that there's some meaningful distinction between selfish and non-selfish behavior.

Yeah, I don't think it's a relevant distinction either... but it'd be such a long digression I gave up on that the moment I started typing and adopted his world view so I could talk to him on his terms.

By the way, Nou, though I'm in one of those breaks I often take, I'll come back to discuss this issue if you want. If, however, you need this label so bad, could you please just remind yourself that this is about your uncle and not everyone that commits suicide? It'll save you a lot of trouble in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Don't even ask about what goes on with the Fountainhead.

do ho. Cleveh goil.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie I masturbate every time I read Atlas Shrugged. Don't even ask about what goes on with the Fountainhead.

Sig worthy!















But Ayn Rand sucks as a decent read.

Oh for fuck's sake I peek into this thread & see comments of AYN RAND!?

I am disappoint.

So many haters. Pfft.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira It's become painfully obvious that this discussion is not about suicide, but about your deceased uncle, and that it's comfortable for you to label him as a selfish bastard so you can keep some healthy distance.

Its not though. I would make this same argument either way. Eddie also agrees with me, and he did not know my uncle, I didn't know my uncle either, it was 10 years before I was even born.

You can not argue that violent suicide is not selfish. It the act itself is inherently selfish. You are killing yourself. Selfishness is "devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others." Suicide is of interest only to the person committing it and furthermore it is regardless of other peoples concerns in almost all cases. If the person is not horribly ill than most people will not consider suicide a viable, or even sane alternative. Especially for people like Jay or my uncle whos only driving motivation to actually commit the act was the failure of a romantic relationship.

This is a very cut and dry argument and I think that you people are hung up on the death of DA or maybe others and you find it hard to blame the victim. Well sadly with suicide you can almost never not blame the victim, as they made the conscious choice to end their own lives, irregardless of the concerns of those around them and for their own benefit, which is the definition of selfishness!

*edit*

WTF it censored irregardless... HOW IS THAT A BAD WORD IN ANYWAY!? IT DOESNT EVEN CONTAIN A BAD WORD!!!

Hmmmm this thread is a disaster.





btw Nou is stubborn as shit...there is no getting through to him. EVER. It's a waste of time if you try to argue with him because in that huge head of his he will always be right. Amirite Nou? Yeah.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Its not though. I would make this same argument either way. Eddie also agrees with me, and he did not know my uncle, I didn't know my uncle either, it was 10 years before I was even born. You can not argue that violent suicide is not selfish. It the act itself is inherently selfish. You are killing yourself. Selfishness is "devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others." Suicide is of interest only to the person committing it and furthermore it is regardless of other peoples concerns in almost all cases. If the person is not horribly ill than most people will not consider suicide a viable, or even sane alternative. Especially for people like Jay or my uncle whos only driving motivation to actually commit the act was the failure of a romantic relationship. This is a very cut and dry argument and I think that you people are hung up on the death of DA or maybe others and you find it hard to blame the victim. Well sadly with suicide you can almost never not blame the victim, as they made the conscious choice to end their own lives, irregardless of the concerns of those around them and for their own benefit, which is the definition of selfishness! *edit* WTF it censored irregardless... HOW IS THAT A BAD WORD IN ANYWAY!? IT DOESNT EVEN CONTAIN A BAD WORD!!!

Your use of the word, ************, is essentially is a double negative meaning that what ever the non-word, ************, pertains to should actually be fully regarded. The word you are looking for is, regardless. Regardless of your usage of a non-word, I still agree with what you're saying. Many people find the usage of the non-word annoying, hence the censorship.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira It's become painfully obvious that this discussion is not about suicide, but about your deceased uncle, and that it's comfortable for you to label him as a selfish bastard so you can keep some healthy distance.

I don't think he's making the distinctions he's making so he can maintain a healthy distance. I think he's making the distinctions he's making because he has a distance, which healthy or not (I think it is but some may disagree), allows for perspective on the issue.

EDIT: To think I've been striving to avoid redundancy, regardless.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby You can not argue that violent suicide is not selfish.

But I just did, using the best definitions one could find!

By the way, I didn't know DA, and I'm not going to feign any melancholy over his death and say it changed my life because it just couldn't have that impact on me: I didn't even know what his name was, and the views I hold on suicide are the same I had before he did it.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Well sadly with suicide you can almost never not blame the victim, as they made the conscious choice to end their own lives, ************ of the concerns of those around them and for their own benefit, which is the definition of selfishness!

You really didn't read what I wrote even after other posters (such as Arbiter) pointed out that I was talking about a situation very similar to the one that happened in your family... did you?

Oh, well, I give up.

ps.: Irregardless is censored for humorous purposes.

I just read your entire post. You seem to consider people as being individuals. That is not the case. No one is ever totally devoid of connections to other people. There will always be a connection. Connections can even form after they are gone. A persons living life is not the extent of their existence and their influence can extend far beyond their living years.

Maxwells death is selfish because of two main points.

He does not reap any of the consequences of his actions. His actions only serve and immediate goal, which is to end his own suffering.

Second, because he does not consider his place in the larger web of things and realize that living and being part of that, even at the most basic existence is being to a degree selfless, he is being selfish. You provide many functions to other people beyond your conscious efforts to do so. Parents feel pride and loving, they also feel their innate natural success on propagation and continuing of their genetic stock. Friends feel a sense of community and worth because of those they keep around them. Children, even grown children, find the comfort of their parents as well as the link to their past and a definition in part on who they are and where they are going. These are all passive selfless acts that a person is engaging in while living.

A decision to end your life must take these into account. If you are able to lay these concerns to rest with out consulting the parties involved.

Passing the first part is often the easiest. People are creatures of instant gratification on many levels. They act like water, taking the easiest path. Death, in dire times is a very appealing option because of many social, religious and personal reasons. In the end though the common idea is the same. You will no longer be responsible or related to the ills that you are living with. This is often where people stop thinking when debating suicide for themselves, it is also where a lot of people in this argument seem to have stopped thinking as well.

If they do go on to the next part then they will realize that they are part of a larger community, even passively. This though is often not enough for them to stop as many of the ills that affect people who are suicidal come from within their own social network. They might have lost a loved one, either through romantic dissolution or death. They could have trouble with a parent or friend that they feel is so negatively impacting their life that the only situation is to permanently remove themselves from those people, or many other causes. If they look beyond that, especially at the passive parts then they will still see a deeper connection. Often though this thought is a very rational process. People that are debating suicide have often passed the idea of rational though though, as I think we can all agree that suicide is hardly a rational decision (beyond the circumstances we have described in terms of terminally ill, or failure to thrive, or selfless acts of heroism and self-sacrifice, which are extenuating circumstances).

Once these barriers to suicide are brought down there is often nothing that can stop them from at least attempting the act. With these considerations, they are consciously or unconsciously making selfish choice, a choice that benefits solely themselves, to end their own life.

That is my opinion, and my rebuttal to your piece Lira.

heeeee

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On heeeee

i find it funny you make assumptions about my motivations nou.

quote:

Originally posted by epicaricacy i find it funny you make assumptions about my motivations nou.

Was it not your break up that drove you from considering to putting it into some form of action?

people that are mentally unstable, have multiple personalities, and cry out for help with emo suicide notes are fags.

quote:

Originally posted by Schadenfreude people that are mentally unstable, have multiple personalities, and cry out for help with emo suicide notes are fags.

fuck you asshole.

I always figured Jay felt a strong latino connection.

Lol Jay

quote:

Originally posted by Rose btw Nou is stubborn as shit...there is no getting through to him. EVER. It's a waste of time if you try to argue with him because in that huge head of his he will always be right. Amirite Nou? Yeah.

I've been able to get through to him multiple times. Just takes knowing how to talk to the guy. You'll notice that he never responded to my posts, be it here or my mentions to him about it in IRC; that hints at him partially agreeing with me or understanding what I'm saying. Trouble is, he won't admit it.

Edit: You're all getting trolled. At this point, he's just arguing for the sake of arguing to stir shit up, and he won't stop until the rest of you do.

hes ur friend IRL?

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