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-- Breaking News: Isreal and Lebanon at War?
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quote:

Originally posted by Abhay WHo are they fighting??? Hizbollah, or Lebanese troops? Isn't Hezbollah a pov, small, faction of anti-zionist extremists? If they're fighting Hizbollah, then how can there be an all out guunfight between Israeli troops and hizbollah fighters. In an all out war against tanks, machine guns, and helicopters, along a BORDER, hizbollah would get owned within a day of the first few shots.

Hizbollah is quite literally a small Lebanese version of the Iranian army. This isn't some 100 person terrorist cell. It's a fully funded and equiped spin off of the Revolutionary Guard.

quote:

Originally posted by WM2 Hizbollah is quite literally a small Lebanese version of the Iranian army. This isn't some 100 person terrorist cell. It's a fully funded and equiped spin off of the Revolutionary Guard.

Then they'd be complete idiots to engage in a full-fledged battle against one of the world's most advanced militaries. They get absolutely pwned.

Israel is a leader in military research, and some of the weapons they make are absolutely incredible. (like the T.A.R 80 for example).

While I do belive Israel is capable of handling just about every country in the middle east one on one, the situation is a bit to complex for Israel to just flex it's muscule a little and be done. Hizbollah is actually gaining support in the area. That could change at any moment though.

quote:

Originally posted by skot_e From the link you just posted, so you probably have your answer but for others:

Let him speak for himself.

quote:

Originally posted by Abhay WHo are they fighting??? Hizbollah, or Lebanese troops? Isn't Hezbollah a pov, small, faction of anti-zionist extremists? If they're fighting Hizbollah, then how can there be an all out guunfight between Israeli troops and hizbollah fighters. In an all out war against tanks, machine guns, and helicopters, along a BORDER, hizbollah would get owned within a day of the first few shots.

+1
But obviously that didn't happen within the first two hours of the incident with Hizbullah claiming a few kills and two captures.

Why are there other reports of the capture happening in Aita al-Shaab in Lebanon rather than just on the border or in Israel? No one is asking that. Somehow we're supposed to believe that the IDF couldn't have gone within enemy territory in the beginning of any firefight within the Lebanese border.


Lebanese security sources said the Hezbollah operation took place across the border from the Lebanese village of Aita al-Shaab.
Lebanese PM: Government was unaware of Hezbollah raid (Haaretz.com article)

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Let him speak for himself.

oh thank you for keeping my rights.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 +1 But obviously that didn't happen within the first two hours of the incident with Hizbullah claiming a few kills and two captures. Why are there other reports of the capture happening in Aita al-Shaab in Lebanon rather than just on the border or in Israel? No one is asking that. Somehow we're supposed to believe that the IDF couldn't have gone within enemy territory in the beginning of any firefight within the Lebanese border. Lebanese security sources said the Hezbollah operation took place across the border from the Lebanese village of Aita al-Shaab. Lebanese PM: Government was unaware of Hezbollah raid (Haaretz.com article)

you know, this is really wearying. if you want to question everything, be my guest. you have proofs that the abduction took place within Israel. but no, everybody's wrong.

Is the exact location really that relevant? Even if IDF were attacked on Lebanese soil, the hostile act of killing and kidnapping would still be an unprovoked act of war. Israel and Lebanon had a "cold peace", in which even the crossing of the border could not be seen as an act which would legtimize such a brutal attack. You must not forget that all the surrounding circumstances clearly contradict your theory of "spontaneous armed conflict" as a matter of illegitimate invasion of Lebanese soil: The attack was precisely planned long beforehand, the attack followed the rocketing of Katyushays on Israeli villages as a way to deceive the enemy, the attack was obviously carried out in order to support Hamas. It would be a REAL bewildiering coincidence if Israeli soldiers were to cross the border just in the midst of the parallel totally similar conflict in the Gaza strip and that Hizballah would "spontaneously" respond in such a well-organized fashion. Don't you think?

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Why are there other reports of the capture happening in Aita al-Shaab in Lebanon rather than just on the border or in Israel? No one is asking that. Somehow we're supposed to believe that the IDF couldn't have gone within enemy territory in the beginning of any firefight within the Lebanese border.

you can ask all day but its the equivalent of not seeing a forest through all the trees.

what was their purpose for the abductions? by their own words was not simply because they, by the extreme remote chance, the IDF soldiers were in Lebanese territory. thats point is moot and detrimental to understanding the conflict as a whole. no ones stoppin ya though.

here are Hizbollah's own words (Nasrallah) in an interview on Arab T.V.

>>Nasrallah interview video<<

partial transcript

quote:

Interviewer: Did you inform them that you were about to abduct Israeli soldiers? Hassan Nasrallah: I told them that we must resolve the issue of the prisoners, and that the only way to resolve it is by abducting Israeli soldiers. Interviewer: Did you say this clearly? Hassan Nasrallah: Yes, and nobody said to me: �No, you are not allowed to abduct Israeli soldiers.� Even if they had told me not to� I�m not defending myself here. I said that we would abduct Israeli soldiers in meetings with some of the main political leaders in the country. I don�t want to mention names now, but when the time comes to settle accounts, I will. They asked: �If this happens, will the issue of the prisoners be over and done with?� I said that it was logical that it would. And I�m telling you, our estimation was not mistaken. I�m not exaggerating.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Is the exact location really that relevant? Even if IDF were attacked on Lebanese soil, the hostile act of killing and kidnapping would still be an unprovoked act of war. Israel and Lebanon had a "cold peace", in which even the crossing of the border could not be seen as an act which would legtimize such a brutal attack.

Usually when someone crosses the border it is legitimate enough reason to shot him, and when the person is an Army personal and not some wandering civilian/nomadic people/ tourists; than its double legitimate to shot the alien country's army guy who has infiltrated your border with weapons, and when the situation is as tense and as hostile between the countries like India/Pakistan, Israel/Lebanon, North Korea/South Korea etc than again shoting the person is not unjustified. I have given you 3 legitimate reason why Lebanon as a seperate country has the right to defend its borders/country and to shot dead any Army personal that infiltrates its borders with weapons or without weapons.

But they didnt shot the two guy dead, they arrested them.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Is the exact location really that relevant?

Yes it does. Especially since this was about SOMEONE crossing SOMEONE ELSES border.

quote:

Even if IDF were attacked on Lebanese soil, the hostile act of killing and kidnapping would still be an unprovoked act of war.

Let me get this straight; IDF can go into Lebanon unimpeded but if Hizbullah or Lebanese regular army fire upon them in Lebanon and capture two in the process then it's an act of war against Israel? I don't think so. If anyone crosses into a country that is known for it's hostile neighbors then it shouldn't question why it is shot at.

quote:

Israel and Lebanon had a "cold peace", in which even the crossing of the border could not be seen as an act which would legtimize such a brutal attack.

So you're saying the IDF had lowered their guard when it comes to their Arab neighbors?

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You must not forget that all the surrounding circumstances clearly contradict your theory of "spontaneous armed conflict" as a matter of illegitimate invasion of Lebanese soil:

It seems like more of a once in a lifetime chance to capture IDF soldiers that were snooping around the Lebanese hills. There is no mention in any of the media reports regarding a large number of soldiers on the border from both sides. I don't believe it was an overall large scale assault.

quote:

The attack was precisely planned long beforehand, the attack followed the rocketing of Katyushays on Israeli villages as a way to deceive the enemy, the attack was obviously carried out in order to support Hamas.

Those rockets came hours after and not within the first hours of the ambush. Whether or not Hamas and Hizbullah tag teamed Israel; neither you nor I know for sure. This is all the media keeps parroting.

The alert status for that area was lowered just days before.

Just how would Hizbullah know?

quote:

It would be a REAL bewildiering coincidence if Israeli soldiers were to cross the border just in the midst of the parallel totally similar conflict in the Gaza strip and that Hizballah would "spontaneously" respond in such a well-organized fashion. Don't you think?

Hamas, Hizbullah and the IDF. Would they conspire to a war in the Middle East?

"Lebanon: Israeli spying cell busted"

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Usually when someone crosses the border it is legitimate enough reason to shot him, and when the person is an Army personal and not some wandering civilian/nomadic people/ tourists; than its double legitimate to shot the alien country's army guy who has infiltrated your border with weapons, and when the situation is as tense and as hostile between the countries like India/Pakistan, Israel/Lebanon, North Korea/South Korea etc than again shoting the person is not unjustified. I have given you 3 legitimate reason why Lebanon as a seperate country has the right to defend its borders/country and to shot dead any Army personal that infiltrates its borders with weapons or without weapons. But they didnt shot the two guy dead, they arrested them.

Interesting point.

quote:

Originally posted by ronk you know, this is really wearying. if you want to question everything, be my guest. you have proofs that the abduction took place within Israel. but no, everybody's wrong.

The only truth is that those two were captured by Hizbullah. As to where exactly, you can't come to grips with it being in Aita al-Shaab in the Lebanese frontier and this information comes from an Israeli paper.

From an unknown source within whatreallyhappened.com:

Google Earth doesn't help with locating this town.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Yes it does. Especially since this was about SOMEONE crossing SOMEONE ELSES border.

Last I checked it was about SOMEONE kidnapping SOMEONE ELSE'S citizens. If I get kidnapped in Canada, is it therefore my fault and also legitimate for Canada to deny responsibility for kidnapping me? Were the IDF soldiers in question provoking anyone? Lest you forget that Hezbollah had lobbed tons of missiles into Israel unprovoked and after Israel had evacuated Gaza PRIOR to the kidnapping event taking place.

quote:

Let me get this straight; IDF can go into Lebanon unimpeded but if Hizbullah or Lebanese regular army fire upon them in Lebanon and capture two in the process then it's an act of war against Israel? I don't think so. If anyone crosses into a country that is known for it's hostile neighbors then it shouldn't question why it is shot at.

Did the IDF soldiers shoot at anyone? Are they not allowed to patrol their own borders?

quote:

It seems like more of a once in a lifetime chance to capture IDF soldiers that were snooping around the Lebanese hills.

How do you know what they were doing? The fact that you describe it as a "once in a lifetime chance" displays that you think Hezbollah should actively target Israelis at all times (and for no reason).

quote:

Whether or not Hamas and Hizbullah tag teamed Israel; neither you nor I know for sure. This is all the media keeps parroting.

But you seem to imply above that you know what the various motives and objectives were, yet you then go on to say you don't know for sure.

quote:

From an unknown source within whatreallyhappened.com: Google Earth doesn't help with locating this town.

Well there's a fine example of Internet credibility. That picture is as good as a box of hair if you have no way to validate it.

Link
Well here we go, the Lebanese say they're army will fight land forces that enter from Israel. Good job in suppressing hezbollah i would say, now its Hezbolla/Lebanese Army against Israel. Seems like the predictions of this backfiring on Israel and instead of weakining hezbollah, they're making them more popular is going to come true.

I think this comment is genius "We need not let the entire world know what is being done here and what is not. Whoever is concerned or wants to know what is happening will be informed in due course,". 'There is no genocide going on here, move along now'

Israel PM says he will give free hand to army

EDIT: lol more genius "Meanwhile, Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz said at the meeting that current Israeli ground operations conducted by small units of forces in Lebanon were limited in scale, adding that they did not constitute an invasion of Lebanon." Of course military incursions are not an invasion and invasion is only if we put the whole army in! As long as its just small incursion nothing wrong is going on!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Last I checked it was about SOMEONE kidnapping SOMEONE ELSE'S citizens.

If the IDF 2 were captured in Lebanon does it matter that much?

quote:

If I get kidnapped in Canada, is it therefore my fault and also legitimate for Canada to deny responsibility for kidnapping me?

If you're an American and Canada is a hostile what do you think?

quote:

Were the IDF soldiers in question provoking anyone?

That's a good question for you to ask yourself.

quote:

Lest you forget that Hezbollah had lobbed tons of missiles into Israel unprovoked and after Israel had evacuated Gaza PRIOR to the kidnapping event taking place.

Lest you forget that Israel has lobbed tons of missles into Lebanon onto unprovoked civilians.

But they're all goyim so they don't matter to you. You believe they're all Hizbullah so they should all be wiped out. You want to turn back the clock twenty years. I don't want this.

quote:

Did the IDF soldiers shoot at anyone?

Reports indicate no shots were fired from IDF at that time.

quote:

Are they not allowed to patrol their own borders?

Both sides on their prospective side.

quote:

How do you know what they were doing? The fact that you describe it as a "once in a lifetime chance" displays that you think Hezbollah should actively target Israelis at all times (and for no reason).

Watch what you're trying to say.

For you to imply that I should side with Israel or that I side with Lebanon is close to libel.

I do not condone the taking of any life for any reason.

The first casualty was truth and no one is trying to protect the truth. Some only promote innuendo.

quote:

But you seem to imply above that you know what the various motives and objectives were, yet you then go on to say you don't know for sure.

Instead of drinking/smoking/eating whatever made you press reply; try to read something in your life for once. We've been down this road before. I implore you to actually know who I am is to read what I type. I don't need to spam this post with a deposition of who I am.

quote:

Well there's a fine example of Internet credibility.

It's only credible when it tells a story that you want others to believe isn't it?

quote:

That picture is as good as a box of hair if you have no way to validate it.

Kill the messenger before the message is delivered

The picture is from whatreallyhappened.com. From where they got it I don't know. I tried google earth to get a fix on the exact location on this town but GE doesn't offer much in the way of identiying locations in N. Israel/S. Lebanon. Unless someone here can help locate Aita al-Shaab and the other towns mentioned in news reports then we won't have much to go on now will we?

It's very important to get an idea just WHERE exactly did WHAT happen. We already know WHY, HOW, WHO and WHEN.

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Why are there other reports of the capture happening in Aita al-Shaab in Lebanon rather than just on the border or in Israel? No one is asking that. Somehow we're supposed to believe that the IDF couldn't have gone within enemy territory in the beginning of any firefight within the Lebanese border.

This is such a ridicilous argument.

Do you believe Narssalla leads the Hezbullah army?
If so take his words for it forget everyone else.

Go google his speech after the soldiers were kidnapped, even he admits it but apparently that still is not good enough.

Just goes to show how fanatic some people are with their beliefes.

quote:

Originally posted by psychosomatica I really don't see your point. Both sides use human shields. Both sides are wrong. Don't condemn the other side for doing what you've done (and I believe are still doing.. )

Followup:
Apparently they still are...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212870.stm

disgusting ... on both parts

Supposedly from Dennis Miller

quote:

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Here we go: The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians." As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" anymore to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths, until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David but if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth . . . you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Midleast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one. Chew this around & spit it out: 500 million Arabs; 5 million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that, if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals...Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding. My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the Numbers. Imagine 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the news strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death. Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that, with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of super models who've just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day), start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan.

LMAO!

quote:

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that, with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of super models who've just had their drugs taken away.

Love Dennis!!

He certainly has a way with words...

I don't know why you'd say, 'supposedly' Shakka, this is classic Dennis ranting.
I'd be REAL surprised if it wasn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I don't know why you'd say, 'supposedly' Shakka, this is classic Dennis ranting. I'd be REAL surprised if it wasn't.

Just in case some douchebag asks for a source.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Just in case some douchebag asks for a source.

Meh...just give'em www.google.com

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus This is such a ridicilous argument.

Then why press reply?

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/25/D8J39A4O0.html

I want to see someone justify this one... good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by psychosomatica http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/25/D8J39A4O0.html I want to see someone justify this one... good luck.

*shrugs*
What's there to justify? You can't justify it. Duh. You say "I'm sorry" and keep bombing stuff.

Shit happens man.

EDIT:

On a side note. Regional nuclear holocaust would be a beautiful thing to see over there. Oh and make no bones about it. Isreal would be engulfed as well.

Give the whole area a clean slate, what do you say?

i think the lack of UN response to israel\'s apparently deliberate shelling of their personnel will really illustrate the UNs lack of significance in the 21st century what a disgrace.

The UN is filled with incompetant and corrupt officials. If the UN will amount to anything it will be the showcase of how low public officials can go.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think the lack of UN response to israel's apparently deliberate shelling of their personnel will really illustrate the UNs lack of significance in the 21st century what a disgrace.

Who gives a shit what Kofi Anan has to say? Fuc him.

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