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Posted by idoru on Apr-08-2010 02:06:

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Ocean
hes ur friend IRL?

I've been good friends with him for about six years now.

Posted by Lira on Apr-08-2010 02:18:

quote:
Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
I just read your entire post. You seem to consider people as being individuals. That is not the case. No one is ever totally devoid of connections to other people. There will always be a connection. Connections can even form after they are gone. A persons living life is not the extent of their existence and their influence can extend far beyond their living years.

Well, being part of a community does not mean you're that community. Just because I've got connections with other people, i.e. I'm a social being, these bonds are not part of me in the same way my hand is part of me.

You're right when you say we're not alone (well, not usually) and that our actions influence the life of those around us. However, to what extent are you responsible for all the outcomes brought about by your actions?

Mark met this beautiful young woman and he immediately got interested in her. He befriended this girl, Emma, and soon found out she had a boyfriend, but he liked her so much that he didn't let that keep him away. He became more and more attractive to her, though he just meant to be around her as a friend, until the girl broke up with her boyfriend the day he proposed to her, so she could be with Mark who: the jilted (now ex-)boyfriend, Maxwell, was heartbroken and never recovered from this fact, specially because he thought his girlfriend had completely forgiven him after he cheated on her... so he killed himself.

Can you say Mark is to blame for Maxwell's suicide? Had he not insisted on a relationship with Emma?

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Maxwell`s death is selfish because of two main points.

He does not reap any of the consequences of his actions. His actions only serve and immediate goal, which is to end his own suffering.

Well, isn't the end of his own suffering a consequence of his actions?

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Second, because he does not consider his place in the larger web of things and realize that living and being part of that, even at the most basic existence is being to a degree selfless, he is being selfish. You provide many functions to other people beyond your conscious efforts to do so. Parents feel pride and loving, they also feel their innate natural success on propagation and continuing of their genetic stock. Friends feel a sense of community and worth because of those they keep around them. Children, even grown children, find the comfort of their parents as well as the link to their past and a definition in part on who they are and where they are going. These are all passive selfless acts that a person is engaging in while living.

True but, what if fed up with life he simply decides to revoke his membership to this larger group because it was causing him just too much pain? Can you really blame him for choosing not to have a life he was unwillingly thrown into when he was born? Can't I ever leave a community? Specially one that I didn't choose to join in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
A decision to end your life must take these into account. If you are able to lay these concerns to rest with out consulting the parties involved.

I didn't understand the meaning of this bit. It could be due to a construction I don't know in English because I'm a foreigner so, unless it's just a connection between different ideas, could you rephrase it for me please?

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Passing the first part is often the easiest. People are creatures of instant gratification on many levels. They act like water, taking the easiest path. Death, in dire times is a very appealing option because of many social, religious and personal reasons. In the end though the common idea is the same. You will no longer be responsible or related to the ills that you are living with. This is often where people stop thinking when debating suicide for themselves, it is also where a lot of people in this argument seem to have stopped thinking as well.

We aren't always driven by instant gratification: Teenagers often go to college, it is not always a pleasant experience, and it would be more interesting to just stick around after high school, get a simple job, and live a simple life. When they enroll in a course they do it because in the long run they believe it's going to be worth the all-nighters they're going to pull, among other things.
Same thing about marriage, diets, and so on.

When a person commits suicide, it need not be because at that particular time they think life sucks. Sometimes people deal with depression for years, and refrain from killing themselves because they see their possible recovery as a goal in the long run. Once this goal is removed by whatever reason, you can't say they're seeking an instant gratification any longer.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
If they do go on to the next part then they will realize that they are part of a larger community, even passively. This though is often not enough for them to stop as many of the ills that affect people who are suicidal come from within their own social network. They might have lost a loved one, either through romantic dissolution or death. They could have trouble with a parent or friend that they feel is so negatively impacting their life that the only situation is to permanently remove themselves from those people, or many other causes. If they look beyond that, especially at the passive parts then they will still see a deeper connection. Often though this thought is a very rational process. People that are debating suicide have often passed the idea of rational though though, as I think we can all agree that suicide is hardly a rational decision (beyond the circumstances we have described in terms of terminally ill, or failure to thrive, or selfless acts of heroism and self-sacrifice, which are extenuating circumstances).

Actually, I'd say that suicide can be much more rational than we take it to be. If you think that life is not going to get better, and any deeper connection you could have with other people is thought to be worthless, committing suicide is a very rational conclusion. If like sucks and there's nothing to stop you from ending yourself, doing it is not at all irrational.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Once these barriers to suicide are brought down there is often nothing that can stop them from at least attempting the act. With these considerations, they are consciously or unconsciously making selfish choice, a choice that benefits solely themselves, to end their own life.

Like I said earlier, they could feel they're a burden to others, and everybody else would be better off if they didn't exist (like the first ending from "The Butterfly Effect"). Maxwell could've easily come to the conclusion that he ought to punish himself because he was a bad son, a bad lover, a bad friend, and even a bad student, in which case the world would be a lot better if he didn't exist.

Can you really say he's being selfish? It isn't so simple.

Posted by idoru on Apr-08-2010 02:19:

FAO: Lira

quote:
Originally posted by idoru
Edit: You're all getting trolled. At this point, he's just arguing for the sake of arguing to stir shit up, and he won't stop until the rest of you do.

Posted by Silky Johnson on Apr-08-2010 02:20:

Posted by Lira on Apr-08-2010 02:23:

I love that tune!

quote:
Originally posted by idoru
FAO: Lira

Actually, his arguments remind me quite a lot of the things my mother used to say on this issue, and it's been a good opportunity for myself to make my own thoughts clearer.

But thanks for the pointer

Posted by idoru on Apr-08-2010 02:25:

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
Actually, his arguments remind me quite a lot of the things my mother used to say on this issue, and it's been a good opportunity for myself to make my own thoughts clearer.

But thanks for the pointer

Ahh, well carry on, then.

Posted by Silky Johnson on Apr-08-2010 02:28:

I'd love to dig up my old posts on the topic...I used to think the exact thing as Nou until I worked with the mentally ill. Even on things like homelessness and addiction - I can't believe how truly ignorant I was, and how adamantly (and without real justification why) I believed what I did. Mind you, I could just believe what I believe now because of what the nursing program has taught me, but it feels right at the moment, lol.

Posted by MrJiveBoJingles on Apr-08-2010 02:31:

Some people do seem to have their beliefs pushed around pretty easily by their immediate intellectual environment.

Posted by Lira on Apr-08-2010 02:32:

quote:
Originally posted by jennypie
I'd love to dig up my old posts on the topic...I used to think the exact thing as Nou until I worked with the mentally ill. Even on things like homelessness and addiction - I can't believe how truly ignorant I was, and how adamantly (and without real justification why) I believed what I did. Mind you, I could just believe what I believe now because of what the nursing program has taught me, but it feels right at the moment, lol.

Actually, if it weren't for you, I don't think I'd be discussing with Nou right now. I remember I used to have the very same kind of debate with you in the past and, though I don't know if that changed anything (probably not), but the sole possibility that I may find a mistake in my own reasoning or show you something you had never seen before and that may be helpful in the future... well, that gives me enough enthusiasm to go believe in debates

Posted by Silky Johnson on Apr-08-2010 02:42:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Some people do seem to have their beliefs pushed around pretty easily by their immediate intellectual environment.

Hey shut up, you. I'll have you know I'm still pretty stubborn. I've just learned to temper it a little.

Posted by Silky Johnson on Oct-22-2010 01:35:

I'm bumping this thread because I was looking for something else and found this. And it's so fucking epic and hilarious.

Posted by shaw on Oct-22-2010 01:40:

I'd ask for a c0r version, but I'm guessing that defeats the point.

Posted by Silky Johnson on Oct-22-2010 01:47:

quote:
Originally posted by Silky Johnson
Nou has his pHd in suicide.

Posted by shaw on Oct-22-2010 01:52:

one of those 'do as I say, not as I do' things, I guess.

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