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-- Humor: Canadian PM Jean Chrétien
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Just over 70% of German forces were fighting in Russia. I know that and I also know that the war would have been won even if the Americans had not joined. The Japanese were a big problem, but if the Russians had swept across Europe (like they did) and taken care of Germany (the British and Canadians could have done a D Day on their own but it would have taken more time), eventually the British and Russians could have combined to defeat them. Without the Americans, WW2 would have lasted until at least 1946-47, if not into 1950. I've read some interesting theories by Stephen Ambrose specualting on US involvement and if it never happened. He predicted British/Soviet victory in all cases, IF the Battle of Britain, Stalingrad and El Alemain had been won. A little ironic that America's most revered (and now dead) historian sees the three tide turning battles of WW2 as ones not involving Americans forces? But of course....Montgomery's Eighth Army used American tanks in North Africa so...

Another good thing about the Americans coming into the war was that they made DDay in 1944 possible and that western Europe didn't become Soviet. I know the Russians were our ally, but Stalin was just as much a bastard as Hitler.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Just over 70% of German forces were fighting in Russia. I know that and I also know that the war would have been won even if the Americans had not joined. The Japanese were a big problem, but if the Russians had swept across Europe (like they did) and taken care of Germany (the British and Canadians could have done a D Day on their own but it would have taken more time), eventually the British and Russians could have combined to defeat them. Without the Americans, WW2 would have lasted until at least 1946-47, if not into 1950. I've read some interesting theories by Stephen Ambrose specualting on US involvement and if it never happened. He predicted British/Soviet victory in all cases, IF the Battle of Britain, Stalingrad and El Alemain had been won. A little ironic that America's most revered (and now dead) historian sees the three tide turning battles of WW2 as ones not involving Americans forces? But of course....Montgomery's Eighth Army used American tanks in North Africa so... Another good thing about the Americans coming into the war was that they made DDay in 1944 possible and that western Europe didn't become Soviet. I know the Russians were our ally, but Stalin was just as much a bastard as Hitler.

I'm a big fan of Ambrose, except for a few minor cases of plagiarism his works are top notch. Britain came pretty close to capitulating to the wolfpacks if it weren't for canadian and american resupply efforts and improved anti-submarine warfare technology. At any rate, I think the Russians could have probably beaten the Nazis without any help except for material support. The allies could have probably won without the Americans ... the allies could have probably won without the Brits, etc. There's no point in belittling a country's constributions in this conflict.

However, one could probably say that it was critical that the Nazis were defeated in 1945. They were fairly close to developing their own atomic weapon as well as numerous secret technologies. Their jet engine technology was at least a year or two ahead of the Americans and British. If they actually utilized the me-262 in a fighter superiority role who knows how the air war would have turned out. Also they were in development of v-3 rockets which could have devastated London. There was a good history channel show that documented all the secret weapons projects the Germans were conducting ... pretty scary.

AND NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC (been away for awhile...busy busy busy)

yes...our PM sux ass and he really needs to pick sides, all this fence sitting is really irritating our allies.

btw, i saw the history channel documentary, pretty scurry stuff. i was pretty sure that i saw a documentary on the luftwaffe that also said that the me 262 did reach completion but there wasn't adequate numbers of them to be used in any significant role. it (documentary) also showed some luftwaffe craft that were rocket powered, they were designed solely to intercept incoming bombers (but again, they couldn't be deployed in sufficient numbers to make a dent on the lancaster onslaught).

Well....let's end this WW2 debate now.

As for Chretien...I think a lot of Canadians forget what he's done for Canada and place blame on him for stuff that Harris and the Ontario Tories did. Education and healthcare are a complete mess right now in Ontario.....oh well, Dalton Mcquinty for the Liberals will be in soon anyway. Thing will get better.

NEWSFLASH!!!

federal liberal government healthcare transfer payments to the premiers for healthcare, and it's the liberals fault health care is degrading (not entirely their fault...but alot of blame).

oh! having lived through the education system overhaul, i must say...it didn't have an entirely negative effect (coming from a student), quite frankly i didn't see any degradation in quality (nor improvement).

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Originally posted by marcus82 NEWSFLASH!!! federal liberal government healthcare transfer payments to the premiers for healthcare, and it's the liberals fault health care is degrading (not entirely their fault...but alot of blame). oh! having lived through the education system overhaul, i must say...it didn't have an entirely negative effect (coming from a student), quite frankly i didn't see any degradation in quality (nor improvement).

The Federal Government INCREASED healthcare funding by 20 billion dollars since their second term in 1997!! Do you not know how the political spectrum works? The Tories took the increase in healthcare spending and used it to pay for those 200-500 dollar tax rebates people got at the end of the year! Right wing parties (Alliance, Tories) believe in SMALLER government.....which means less involvement and less spending....which is why healthcare has suffered in Ontario and in Alberta where it is now half privatised.

The Tories also legislated a 60 hour work week and totally fucked the Secondary school system with the elimination of OAC! Do you agree with that?

Oh, and I'm not arguing about the quality of the university system in Canada or Ontario. It's the PRICE of one school year that makes it very very hard to fund a student for four years. The Tories DECREASED university subsidies but also DECREASED taxes.....see the connection? Do you think it's fair that when Bob Rae was in power, tuition for Ontario universities was less than 2500 but now it's approaching 6,000, plus books?

Do you not have a social conscience? Would you rather save a few hundred dollars on your tax return and sacrifice our social programs? If so, I think you should move to the US!

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Originally posted by occrider Look asshole.

I can always tell when an argument is winning for me. My opponent turns to swearing.

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Originally posted by Wurm I can always tell when an argument is winning for me. My opponent turns to swearing.

If by winning you mean piss off than yes you are the big winner. However, you still haven't addressed my points.

I don't have to. You have removed yourself from the realm of reasonable argument by falling back on obscenities.

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Originally posted by Wurm I don't have to. You have removed yourself from the realm of reasonable argument by falling back on obscenities.

Nice way out from arguing the points at hand. Look back on my statements you'll see supporting arguments. But if I hurt your feelings and you don't want to argue the argument anymore that's fine with me.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 The Federal Government INCREASED healthcare funding by 20 billion dollars since their second term in 1997 The Tories also legislated a 60 hour work week and totally fucked the Secondary school system with the elimination of OAC! Do you agree with that? Do you not have a social conscience? Would you rather save a few hundred dollars on your tax return and sacrifice our social programs? If so, I think you should move to the US!

well, first of all the liberal government cut that funding in then reinstated it. so in actuality, the '20 billion' in healthcare is actually just reinstating the cut to early 90's spending levels.

elimination of OAC isn't a big boohoo! c'mon man, we are the only province in north america that has a 'grade 13', and quite frankly we don't need it! hence, ontario academic credit.

lastly, tuition increases, i go to university as well and i do feel the pinch. sometimes i wish the government put more social spending (provicial) in their agenda so they'd keep those tuition fees (at least) frozen for a few years.

so therefore, i don't condone what the provicial government is doing, but the feds aren't angels either. btw, NDP is crap and you know it...if we are slaves to the global economy how are these left-center socialists gonna keep big business in ontario? all i am saying is, the reason tax cuts are so popular is because neocon's like to keep big business happy, and thus they keep more money and less trickles to you...however, they do employ you as well

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Originally posted by marcus82 well, first of all the liberal government cut that funding in then reinstated it. so in actuality, the '20 billion' in healthcare is actually just reinstating the cut to early 90's spending levels. elimination of OAC isn't a big boohoo! c'mon man, we are the only province in north america that has a 'grade 13', and quite frankly we don't need it! hence, ontario academic credit. lastly, tuition increases, i go to university as well and i do feel the pinch. sometimes i wish the government put more social spending (provicial) in their agenda so they'd keep those tuition fees (at least) frozen for a few years. so therefore, i don't condone what the provicial government is doing, but the feds aren't angels either. btw, NDP is crap and you know it...if we are slaves to the global economy how are these left-center socialists gonna keep big business in ontario? all i am saying is, the reason tax cuts are so popular is because neocon's like to keep big business happy, and thus they keep more money and less trickles to you...however, they do employ you as well

spoken like a true right winger. You're sure you're not a Torie?

nope!

unfortunately im falling into the whole degradation of the vote trap because i don't vote! i've become cynical, weary of both fed and provicial gov't inaction and really hate em all...sigh...so sad

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Originally posted by marcus82 nope! unfortunately im falling into the whole degradation of the vote trap because i don't vote! i've become cynical, weary of both fed and provicial gov't inaction and really hate em all...sigh...so sad

If you don't vote, then what right do you have to bitch about the government? This not only applies to you, but to every Canadian who bitches politics. Only 67% of Canadians turned out to vote in 2000 but 100% of Canadians bitch about SOMETHING government oriented.

Jean looks and acts as if he abused some hard core drugs back in the 60's





Jean in the 60's and 2003

>JM<

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