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-- George Bush, Winner or Wanker?
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take a highly liberal forum. then take the most liberal ppl out of the liberal forum and have them post about politics in here.

and best of all, more than half don't have valid arguments. Apart from JohnSmith who backs his points up, even if I don't agree.



no wonder the "wanker" vote is winning.


i voted, naturally, WINNER!

>JM<

Well this CAN'T be the first time you have heard /seen Bush equated with Hitler. I mean just the creation of the Patriot Act and the parallels between 911 and what happened after the burning of the Reichstag all those years ago should be enough. Not enough? Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place.

I stand by the picture.

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Originally posted by Cal Well this CAN'T be the first time you have heard /seen Bush equated with Hitler. I mean just the creation of the Patriot Act and the parallels between 911 and what happened after the burning of the Reichstag all those years ago should be enough. Not enough? Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place. I stand by the picture.

Are you saying that Bush caused 9/11? If you remember, Hitler had the Reichstag burnt down so that he could frame the Communists for it.
Also, Bush isn't exactly blaming the countries problems on Muslims.

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Originally posted by JM take a highly liberal forum. then take the most liberal ppl out of the liberal forum and have them post about politics in here. and best of all, more than half don't have valid arguments. Apart from JohnSmith who backs his points up, even if I don't agree.

ha, it's nice to be recognized anyway.

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Originally posted by JM no wonder the "wanker" vote is winning. i voted, naturally, WINNER! >JM<

hmm. maybe it has something to do with the fact that he's a fuckin WANKER? ever considered that?

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Originally posted by Cal Well this CAN'T be the first time you have heard /seen Bush equated with Hitler. I mean just the creation of the Patriot Act and the parallels between 911 and what happened after the burning of the Reichstag all those years ago should be enough. Not enough? Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place. I stand by the picture.

Hmmm yes I quite remember an American version of Kristallnacht. Or the Nuremburg laws of 1935 ... why yes the similarities are remarkable . This isn't the first time I've heard comparisons but they're all equally as unintelligent. While you're using such a stupid quote to reference the picture why don't you include the context within which it was said:

quote:

Perhaps the day's most striking scene came on Capitol Hill in the Rayburn room named after another powerful Texan, the legendary former House Speaker Sam Rayburn. Before a battery of television cameras, Bush appeared with the congressional leaders who will have a major say in determining his success in these divided political times. To Bush's right stood the Republicans, House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois, and Sen. Trent Lott, the majority leader from Mississippi. To his left stood the Democrats, Rep. Dick Gephardt, the minority leader from Missouri, and Sen. Tom Daschle, the minority leader from South Dakota. Bush had met with the Republicans before, but he made a point on Monday of spending time with each of the two Democrats. All five men took pains to sound conciliatory and Bush joked: "I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't agree with each other, but that's okay. If this were a dictatorship, this would be a heck of a lot easier." Chuckling, he added, "Just so long as I'm dictator." More seriously, Bush said: "I've got opinions and they've got opinions. It's amazing what happens when you listen to the other person's opinion and we began the process of doing that today." But for all the good will, the difficulties facing Bush and the divided Congress were also apparent.

http://www.nctimes.com/news/121900/t.html

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Originally posted by Cal Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place. I stand by the picture.

i dont see the US government quarantining and throwing arab-americans and muslims into concentration camps anytime soon...i know a couple muslims at my high school and they're just like every other ordinary person in the united states...its not like anyone is reporting possible "terrorists" to officials or some bullshit like that so comparing Hitler's extreme hate and prejudice and his slaughtering of 6 million jews to muslims in america is just ludicrous and pathetic.when you have muslims fly commercial jets into commercial buildings killing thousands of innocent americans of course there would be resentment towards muslims living in america...that sort of shit just happens...same with japanese-americans during world war 2 when pearl harbor was bombed by the japanese. its time for you to remove your disillusional head out of your ass

Dude I just said that it wasn't as extreme!

But look:

911 - done by muslem extremists
Patriot Act - passed by the scared American public
Treatment of muslems, "freedom" fries, toast, boycotting of french businesses, etc.

Burning of the Reichstag - communists
German Version of the Patriot Act - passed by the scared Germans
Treatment of jews

And btw Im talking about the prewar situation in Nazi Germany, with the only difference from the US is the treatment and attitudes were officially endoursed and acted on by the government.

WAAAANKEEEEEER

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Originally posted by Cal Dude I just said that it wasn't as extreme! But look: 911 - done by muslem extremists Patriot Act - passed by the scared American public Treatment of muslems, "freedom" fries, toast, boycotting of french businesses, etc. Burning of the Reichstag - communists German Version of the Patriot Act - passed by the scared Germans Treatment of jews And btw Im talking about the prewar situation in Nazi Germany, with the only difference from the US is the treatment and attitudes were officially endoursed and acted on by the government. WAAAANKEEEEEER

They aren't even SHADES of each other. The burning down of the Reichstag wasn't done so Hitler could discriminate against Jews. The enabling act was passed so he could eliminate all other political parties. Furthermore once all other political parties were eliminated, it was utilized to remove all the constitutionally elected local governments in each state province. I fail to see anything remotely like that happening in the US.

Secondly, the Patriot act doesn't REMOVE any civil liberties. It grants the government more powers to conduct surveillance. The US government discourages crimes against Muslims or Arabs and those who committ crimes against them are often charged with hate crimes. And there hasn't even BEEN any huge public outrage or discrimination against Muslims or Arabs except for initially following 9/11. Once again, those who committed hate crimes were arrested. So I don't know what you're talking about by insinuating that the treatment or attitudes are the same in the US as they were in pre-war Nazi Germany.

You might not be aware of it but one of the clauses of the Patriot Act allows for arrest and indefinite detention of both citizens and non-citizens without formal charges, just like in the bill passed after the burning of the Reichstag in Nazi Germany.

But here.

In both countries something of great magnitude happened, something that scared its residents enough to pass a bill effectively removing any traces of a democracy in that country, producing a spurt of nationaistic pride, creating much discrimination against certain ethnic groups and nations, finally culminating in illigal attacks on sovereign countries.

Now tell me again how that comparison is wrong.

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Originally posted by Cal You might not be aware of it but one of the clauses of the Patriot Act allows for arrest and indefinite detention of both citizens and non-citizens without formal charges, just like in the bill passed after the burning of the Reichstag in Nazi Germany. But here. In both countries something of great magnitude happened, something that scared its residents enough to pass a bill effectively removing any traces of a democracy in that country, producing a spurt of nationaistic pride, creating much discrimination against certain ethnic groups and nations, finally culminating in illigal attacks on sovereign countries. Now tell me again how that comparison is wrong.

I disagree with the patriot act, however, it doesn't allow for the arrest and indefinite detention of citizens ... it allows for the detention and deportation of aliens who have engaged in terrorist activity or are under suspicion of such. Section 411 and 412 if you're interested.

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveill...triot_bill.html


Your implications that all vestiges of democracy have been removed are ludicrous. Especially since some cities are refusing to even comply with the patriot act (as they should).

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/D...riot020701.html

Furthermore the enabling act was passed with the explicit purpose of removing oppossing political elements and consolidating control. I fail to see that happening in this case. The system of checks and balances are still in place and states ultimately control state laws. Also I'm curious as to what widespread discrimination you are referring to. Especially since the patriot act itself contains text to ward off discrimination! :

SEC. 102. SENSE OF CONGRESS CONDEMNING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ARAB AND MUSLIM AMERICANS.

(a) FINDINGS- Congress makes the following findings:

(1) Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia play a vital role in our Nation and are entitled to nothing less than the full rights of every American.

(2) The acts of violence that have been taken against Arab and Muslim Americans since the September 11, 2001, attacks against the United States should be and are condemned by all Americans who value freedom.

(3) The concept of individual responsibility for wrongdoing is sacrosanct in American society, and applies equally to all religious, racial, and ethnic groups.

(4) When American citizens commit acts of violence against those who are, or are perceived to be, of Arab or Muslim descent, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

(5) Muslim Americans have become so fearful of harassment that many Muslim women are changing the way they dress to avoid becoming targets.

(6) Many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent, who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance and is now missing.

(b) SENSE OF CONGRESS- It is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the civil rights and civil liberties of all Americans, including Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia, must be protected, and that every effort must be taken to preserve their safety;

(2) any acts of violence or discrimination against any Americans be condemned; and

(3) the Nation is called upon to recognize the patriotism of fellow citizens from all ethnic, racial, and religious backgrounds.

Um no both citizens and not-citizens can be arrested and detained by the Patriot Act. Do your research before you talk.

Hah and why are you giving me all that congress stuff. I'm not talking about ideals, I'm talking about how it is now, I'm talking about "freedom" fries, and I'm talking about profiling and dirty looks some people get on the street.

Some cities don't tolerate it? So what? It's still the law passed by that congress you just quoted. And when it will come to the Patriot Act or their jobs, guess which way its going to go.

But you know what else? The national socialist patry's post-Reichstag bill was ALSO designed to protect the average german from terrorist acts such as that infamous fire, designed to be only used on terrorist suspects and look how well THAT worked out. You see it's not about for what purpose it was passed, but rather HOW IT WILL BE USED.

Now, for democracy. By it's definition it simply CAN'T be a democracy with some changes. That's like changing the formula of Tylenol by one single atom and still calling it Tylenol. Doesn't work like that.

In both countries something of great magnitude happened, something that scared its residents enough to pass a bill effectively removing any traces of a democracy in that country, producing a spurt of nationaistic pride, creating much discrimination against certain ethnic groups and nations, finally culminating in illigal attacks on sovereign countries. <------ This still stands

^^yup, the only "democratic choices" we have left are BE PATRIOTIC OR DIE!!
id rather die.

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Um no both citizens and not-citizens can be arrested and detained by the Patriot Act. Do your research before you talk.

What like actually POSTING the patriot act in my last post? LOL make sure you read carefully before posting. But in case you don't feel like reading through it like I did:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commen...ramasastry.html
http://lawreview.stanford.edu/conte...55/4/Sinnar.pdf

quote:

Hah and why are you giving me all that congress stuff. I'm not talking about ideals, I'm talking about how it is now, I'm talking about "freedom" fries, and I'm talking about profiling and dirty looks some people get on the street.

This is requiring a lot of restraint on my part ... ok I posted all that congress "stuff" to refute your point that the bill was designed to create an atmosphere of discrimination. And what the hell does freedom fries have to do anything? It was 2 congressmen who asked the cafeteria manager to change the name of french fries to freedom fries in the cafeteria ... please tell me you're building your case on something mroe than that. And you don't even LIVE here how the hell can you speak about profiling and dirty looks on the streets of america??? And even IF dirty looks and profiling was prolific on the streets your attempts to establish causality with the US gov't is in error because the US gov't is not encouraging citizens to discriminate. THe real reason would be that people still hold resentment from the attacks.

quote:

Some cities don't tolerate it? So what? It's still the law passed by that congress you just quoted. And when it will come to the Patriot Act or their jobs, guess which way its going to go.

Sigh again I was refuting your point that all vestiges of democracy were removed.

quote:

But you know what else? The national socialist patry's post-Reichstag bill was ALSO designed to protect the average german from terrorist acts such as that infamous fire, designed to be only used on terrorist suspects and look how well THAT worked out. You see it's not about for what purpose it was passed, but rather HOW IT WILL BE USED.

Ok so how is the patriot act being used to remove political parties and consolidate power in the federal government?

quote:

Now, for democracy. By it's definition it simply CAN'T be a democracy with some changes. That's like changing the formula of Tylenol by one single atom and still calling it Tylenol. Doesn't work like that.

What are you talking about??? Our officials are ELECTED. THE SAME AS YOURS.

quote:

In both countries something of great magnitude happened, something that scared its residents enough to pass a bill effectively removing any traces of a democracy in that country, producing a spurt of nationaistic pride, creating much discrimination against certain ethnic groups and nations, finally culminating in illigal attacks on sovereign countries. <------ This still stands

Again, the bill didn't remove all traces of democracy, it's an infringement on civil liberties ... learn the difference! What atmosphere of discrimination ... there are no laws specifically targeting muslims and their are laws that protect them as any other citizen??? And although the war in Iraq could be considered illegal it was not necessarily established as illegal ... At either rate the UN never declared it as such.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2826331.stm

At any rate, your comparisons with Nazi Germany are quite weak.

Furthermore, according to your theory of "molecular" democracy I could come to the conclusions that Canada's been stripped away of all democracy :

IMPRISONED FOR HATING SOMEONE

In Canada, a person may already be sentenced to a 5-year prison term for merely "speaking words that incite to hate." On March 27, 1996, Winnipeg police arrested a 17-year-old Canadian teenager for sending the following e-mail message to a local political activist: "Death to homosexuals; It's prescribed in the Bible! Better watch out next Gay Pride Week!!!" It was the first time in North America that police charged an Internet user with committing a hate crime over the Net.

Section 318 of Canada�s Criminal Code makes it a crime to "advocate genocide". The term "genocide" was coined in 1944, referring to Nazi Germany�s attempt to destroy European Jewry. Genocide may be defined in some cases as "Causing physical harm or mental harm to a minority."

"Advocating" genocide, or "causing mental harm" are issues that makes the subject of hate crimes extremely controversial. Any time a court of law is empowered to condemn a man for what he advocates, or what he thinks mentally, we will have entered into a world of thought police.

How far are we from such a world?

Canada�s "Public Incitement of Hatred" Law, [Section 319(1) of the Criminal Code] makes it a crime to "publicly incite hatred".

319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of (a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

("Communicating" in this context includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; "statements" in this context includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations.)

Citizens of Canada are ALREADY being incarcerated for SAYING things that are "politically incorrect"! In addition, "hate crimes" have been narrowed down to "inciting hate" - so if you make someone hate someone else, you may find yourself in jail. (Please note: we cannot approve of hate, or hate crimes, but neither can we approve of a loss of our freedom of speech.)

WoW there is actually 15 peeps that think he is a winner!
and only 1 posted he is a winner just for fun ( alccode hehehe ).. I know they are just scared to get flamed he, I wont flame them, your opinion

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX WoW there is actually 15 peeps that think he is a winner! and only 1 posted he is a winner just for fun ( alccode hehehe ).. I know they are just scared to get flamed he, I wont flame them, your opinion

I think he's a wiener so I voted as such . Seriously though, sometimes I really do think my wiener can do a better job.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I think he's a wiener so I voted as such . Seriously though, sometimes I really do think my wiener can do a better job.

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX

Dude stop winking at me ... you're starting to freak me out

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Originally posted by occrider Dude stop winking at me ... you're starting to freak me out

LOOOL its the server!

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Originally posted by LiquidX LOOOL its the server!

Suuuurrrreeee ... it was the server

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Originally posted by occrider I think he's a wiener so I voted as such . Seriously though, sometimes I really do think my wiener can do a better job.

haha. george bush: winner, wanker, or occrider's wiener!

quote:

Originally posted by JM take a highly liberal forum. then take the most liberal ppl out of the liberal forum and have them post about politics in here. and best of all, more than half don't have valid arguments. Apart from JohnSmith who backs his points up, even if I don't agree. no wonder the "wanker" vote is winning. i voted, naturally, WINNER! >JM<

More then expected from you.. whom disappeared without BACKING your FOR WAR support argument, whom also disappeared just because you dont have any Proofs now and will look really baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

LoL dude you're still on this. Heh I'm not going to argue with you anymore because I don't feel like typing essays on this subjects and you do.

Basically I have my opinion and you have yours. Peace.

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Originally posted by Cal LoL dude you're still on this. Heh I'm not going to argue with you anymore because I don't feel like typing essays on this subjects and you do. Basically I have my opinion and you have yours. Peace.

Very well ... just don't make the mistake of assuming I don't do my research

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Originally posted by Cal LoL dude you're still on this. Heh I'm not going to argue with you anymore because I don't feel like typing essays on this subjects and you do. Basically I have my opinion and you have yours. Peace.

See what happens when you argue with this man? Only I can beat him in one-line posts, goddamnit!

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