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-- lets see what mind-pollutionist cyusking has to say about this
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ALSO the lazzy boy MUST be made by PALESTINIANS and from 100% PALESTINIAN wood/fabric/nails/springs and foam.

you guys are nuts

give me a bench, made from anyone who put their heart and soul into creating something good, and i'm happy!

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Originally posted by DJBARON give me a bench, made from anyone who put their heart and soul into creating something good, and i'm happy!

This one is for u mr baron every day a piece of your heart and soul goes into it.

LOL

if people here wouldn't flame each other like little kids but instead act grown up by using witty comments to out joust your opponent, i'm sure this place would be the envy of all tranceaddict's forums.

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Originally posted by Izzy if people here wouldn't flame each other like little kids but instead act grown up by using witty comments to out joust your opponent, i'm sure this place would be the envy of all tranceaddict's forums.

U DONT THINK MY TOILET HUMOR IS WITTY?!!?!??! HOW DARE U WAIT TILL I GET MY FLAMES GOING.

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Originally posted by occrider EVERY country is affected by regional strife in the middle east. And I assure you that EVERY country wants stability in the region. So of course America is going to strive to attain peace in the region. Even during the height of the Cold War the Soviet political branch wanted peace in the region despite the Soviet military machine encouraging Arab action.

i agree that there is a domino effect from the middle east but the unusual interest and siding of most of the people out there (like the UN is retarded, almost 50% of its statements have been about Israel!) look for yourself how much the UN votes against israel. Its totally unproportionate to the rest of the world.

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What about Kosovo? Are you stipulating that we should have not have involved ourself in Serbia? Or are you saying we should have? I agree, domestic issues should be solved domestically ... hence the reason why they're called domestic issues. What are you talking about? Please provide specific arguments and examples to explain what you are trying to say because as of now you are being extremely vague. It's like me saying that Israel should adopt a more even-handed foreign policy and I leave it at that.

this is why I prefer PM's!
you see let me explain to you how my thinking works. I know there are things I know, and I know there are things I don't know. I am working on realizing that there are things that I don't know that I don't know!

details on probobly all wars I don't know enough about to make judgements. Because you know why? ultimately no matter what I hold on an issue, one day I could meet someone that would tell me something I never heard before, something that puts things in a new perspective, and then what of my past on that judgement? It was wrong, so why bother really trying to make judgements on situations we really cannot understand to a level where our knowledge on it is absolutely complete. ok???

my issue with the domestic and international issues is as so. I hold that Israel and the arabs are both two cultures that think differently then American culture.

I know this: If you are annoyed by someone for something, eventually we think, if we give it them they will leave us alone.

I know this: If you are annoyed by someone in the middle eastern culture (or recently told the same thing from a south african) and you give them what they asked for, they say "well if i got the finger, i can probobly get the hand too!"

what does this mean? to me, it means that trying to use our western perspective to push pressure on an issue that involves two parties that don't share that perspective, (well Israel kind of shares the same western mentality) will lead to the situation getting worse, because outside influences change the paths that are best for either side, and while I know, Israel and Arabs according to many peoples views have a serious problem that requires outside help, that outside help creates the feeling that people need to get more involved, and in turn leads to people who want to conjure support for their causes (like the international solidarity movement which i will mention in a sec) that in the end causes hatred and resentment towards Israel, or the arabs, and that is not where this world needs to go.

I try to be general because I am not at any level where I have an opinion to fake that I know what should go down! I don't!

In Israel I know that the wise people here will say that the people that really know whats going on, know that they have no idea what to do, and that the situation has been just getting worse and worse, and lots of people are losing hope, because they know that no matter how much they try to give, and give and give, they get nothing in return! but a building mass of people like cyrusking that just hate Israel and goliathize it!

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Ahh now something I can actually sink my teeth into. America's involvement with Israel has virtually nothing to do with us economically and virtually everything to do with us politically. You think the US is supporting Israel because it helps our economy? Well shit, I think it would help our economy a lot more if we unconditionally helped the Arab states and they as a result lowered oil prices. The fact of the matter is that America's support for Israel has a political world wide effect on our relations with other middle eastern countries, terrorists, and Europe. Therefore it is within America's best interests to involve ourselves in attempting to achieve peace in the region ... OR it is within our best interests to end our support of Israel. Which would you rather have? You can't accept our aid with one hand while you shove us out the door with the other and say that we should "butt out." It's real funny that Israel did not adopt this stance in the Sinai campaign of 1956 or in the war of 1973. So let's face it ... unless you want to be a hypocrite, you're saddled with UN and US intervention in the Middle East.

The US is not directly benefitted by Israel economically except by military deals and technology deals and plently of intel, but IN-DIRECTLY, Israel and the way America deals with Israel affects America a lot. I heard that when Bush was first getting used to being President he wanted to have a passive role in Israel, and some senator came to him and said, "if you don't go to the middle east, the middle east will come to you" and thats what happened. So I'm not ignorant of the fact that America has involvement for many reasons, but I hold that while America should be involved, I don't think it should be applying pressure, which it is doing a lot of, for israel to make consessions.

In Israel in hebrew the prime minister says privately that no one outside of the senior circle can imagine how much pressure and how hard it is, and that he has his hands tied. Israel is so small, and it is sad in my eyes, but Israel has always tried to suck up to the world, and now look at what happens? Palestinians, of which I can even debate the term, come and now the entire world almost turns on israel, not that most of the world was sincerly with Israel.

I discuss with friends how wierd it is that America supports Israel, when Israel compared to its enemies are small as allies, but there must be deeper reasons. America has reasons to be involved, but you don't understand the severity of American decisions on Israel. If America pushes something, Israel basically has to concede. The arabs all know this, and the arab mentality does not mix well with this. That is why Arafat did not agree to Barak's agreements. Because Arafat knows, If he got that far, Damn, he can get A HELL OF A LOT MORE!!!! So he turned it down!

It is held in israel now that they are fighting their second war of independence! but not a war of tanks! A war of right to existance based on international opinion! This is why I say with a strong response to butt out. Ultimately what is best for Israel is unknown to me, I only know whats best for myself. But with your choice of america pressing for peace, or end aid to Israel, who the hell am I to say? In the end, my say means little, if anything! It is the guys at the top, who know whats really at stake, that doesn't even get into the news who will make the decision.

But what choice did you not present yet? What about the alternative points? what about taking a harder approach? We know from the past that being soft with the arabs does not work. If you have seen that the repeating 'peace process' never works? So try something new. Stand up and say we are going no where, and look at who is really at fault.

I am not accusing a million arabs in israel of all being evil, but I am saying if your part of a nation that does something bad, you will try to revolt, or atleast speak against, but the population speaks, and they are generally pro aggression. I speak with arabs in Jerusalem, and they say to me, "screw arafat! we just want to make money and have sex!" but when a bomb goes off killing 20 soldiers or 20 people, they feel the joy and think "maybe we will get more this time..."

but then if we think about this, what about the poor palestinians? Well look at the stats for the refugees from post ww2, only the arab refugees have not been absorbed. So we have a complex situation here. Why have the other arab nations that have lots of empty land not allowing these refugees to settle? Maybe, just maybe, because they want to use these poor arabs stuck in the middle as a tool to rid the middle east of anything other then muslim nations?

but that cant be it... or can it?

quote:

actually I thought this was kind of silly. Essentially what you're saying is that we as individuals do not "live" the life you live everyday, are therefore uneducated about the issue (irrelevant of how much research or study we conduct on the issue), and therefore do not have valid opinions or judgements to make about the issue? That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. I suppose then that since you did not live through the war of 1948, 56, 67, or 73 you cannot make any kind of judgement about those conflicts, and you as a matter of fact have an invalid perspective of Israel's creation or right to exist since you're currentely living in your "cosy chair" of the present? Going along with your line of reason then, I suppose the rest of the world should not judge the Nazis for the holocaust since we never experienced first hand the culture, the peoples, the history, and we're not one of those who were affected. So we should have essentially "butted out" since we probably all have invalid perspectives. I can understand what's going on in Israel and Palestine quite easily without experiencing it thank you very much. It doesn't take an astrophysicist to comprehend the fact that people are dying and are being terrorized.

remember what I said about what you know, what you know you don't know, and what you DON'T KNOW that you DON'T KNOW.

I was not around for those wars, so I am not one to pass judgements. Looking at the history though I can intuitively judge, but I really was not there, and didn't live it so how can I be honest with myself thinking I can REALLY know how it was?

War veterans have a reality that you can never have about their wars. You can research it all you want, but an american ww2 vet will have a perspective that you cannot because they were there, they lived it.


Have your views now, great and fine. Come to Israel, and live with them for a bit, go to a trance party, chill out, and then go to arab places, and chill there, and live it for a bit.

Then your opinion will
a) deepen in understand
b) open up things you didn't know...

I probobly didn't cover everything but whatever I got my major things out in these forums and its just chilling from now on!

By the way I want to tell you something to add to your knowledge.

a friend of mine from Miami with journalist experience from college in america got interviewed by a french media team. He served in the israeli army, and spoke with them about it.

He told me that they were using journalistic techniques to get you to say anything negative, which later they cut in and use to justify their points. He said they started yelling at each other in French, because they were not getting the dirt they wanted, and ended up just leaving the interview in the middle. Had my friend not been taught how to do those techniques, and actually had that experience, he would of fallen into the trap, and you know what, 6 weeks from now, cyrus-king would be posting a new article by noam chomsky that quotes my friend, but quotes him out of context!!!

so like, add that to your information, and consider the medias influence on shaping opinions...

there is so much out there, really to judge on things today on a national scale is foolish, because we really just cannot know!

GOOD NITE

quote:

Originally posted by Mikado This one is for u mr baron every day a piece of your heart and soul goes into it.

thanks for the thought, but im old fashioned, I was thinking something in Oak, made by a nice craftsman who loved his work and put himself into his projects...


it must be hard to relate what 'putting your heart and soul' is with you

sorry

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Originally posted by fuct4less and it has to be done under the full moon with the temperature at exactly 78.99999999991 degrees K, and lets not forget that you need to be doing this in a lazy boy that was made on february 29th, 1968.

In that case you'd have less than a second before you'd freeze to death considering the fact that the air around you at that temperature would become liquid.

Edit: Oops, the nitrogen in the atmosphere would still be a well 1.5 degrees above the condensing point. Still, all the liquid oxygen would fall down on earth, so I guess if you'd go on a top of a high mountain with a spacesuit and air tanks you'd be able to stay alive long enough to get the grasp of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikado This one is for u mr baron every day a piece of your heart and soul goes into it.

roflmao!!!

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 In that case you'd have less than a second before you'd freeze to death considering the fact that the air around you at that temperature would become liquid. Edit: Oops, the nitrogen in the atmosphere would still be a well 1.5 degrees above the condensing point. Still, all the liquid oxygen would fall down on earth, so I guess if you'd go on a top of a high mountain with a spacesuit and air tanks you'd be able to stay alive long enough to get the grasp of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

yeah, i forgot the spacesuit part... but it will only work if the spacesuit is bright pink.

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Originally posted by Mikado U DONT THINK MY TOILET HUMOR IS WITTY?!!?!??! HOW DARE U WAIT TILL I GET MY FLAMES GOING.

no, thats what made me LOL. really.... let the wittness continue

i cant belive DrUg_Tit0 went to actually research nitrogeon's condensing point. LOL. this forum r0x

One should always make certain there's no space for an error in an argument

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 One should always make certain there's no space for an error in an argument

that's true, but it also means i can 'justifiably' (see i'm connecting threads) call you a geek

that depends on your definition of a geek

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Originally posted by DJBARON im old fashioned, I was thinking something in Oak, made by a nice craftsman who loved his work and put himself into his projects... it must be hard to relate what 'putting your heart and soul' is with you sorry

oooooooooooooohhhhh, dam that was low. I think i can still solve this problem.

^^ OAK HAND CRAFTED TOILABIKE! ^^

See Baron u can have oak,craftsmanship the grunting sounds of love and u can still put yourslef into the project every day. PLus its inovative.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy that's true, but it also means i can 'justifiably' (see i'm connecting threads) call you a geek

You're just saying that because you are jealous

Btw, I must also point out that fuct4less selected a temperature that's just between the condensing points of oxygen and nitrogen, although the two are only about 6 degrees apart.

I think this has gone way off topic, and hey even the topic was way off bat in the first place.

Closed !

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