there is no G-d? religion is bull? read this and I DARE YOU TO ARGUE :)

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Posted by DrUg_Tit0 on Sep-15-2003 19:32:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Do you have any idea what the odds are of you leaving the beach with those grains of sand are? Does someone want to work it out? I wouldn't mind betting that the odds are far smaller than any of the odds provided in the articles - and yet all you've done is go to the beach.

If there's n grains of sand at the beach, and k grains of sand are stuck to your feet, that means the odds for exactly those grains of sand to be on your feat are n!/(n-k)!. So let's assume there are say 10 billion grains of sand on a beach and you've carried away 1000 of them. Now these numbers are too large for my computer/calculator, and I'm too lazy to make myself understand the integral formula which is supposed to make the calculation easier, so I'll just make a semiaccurate approximation which is about (10 000 000 000)^1000, or in other words, 10^10 000, add or distract several hundred zeroes. Much bigger than 10^690 that is needed to type a Shakesperian sonet, as djbaron said.

Edit: And, yes, I do know I'm a nerd.

Posted by tiesto14 on Sep-15-2003 19:34:

quote:
Originally posted by CortexBomb
I'm not Renegade, but yes, that is one of the principal problems with a theory of ID, you get to the point where you have to explain the creator away in the same way you'd have to explain the universe itself, without the creator.

ie: If anything as complex as the universe requires a creator, then you have God, but God must be more complex than the universe, surely? And as such he requires a creator, and he a creator, and so on down the line.

At that point you're in an infinite cycle that's impossible to stop, therefore science minded people generally tend to not even start down that path and go with mathematical probabilities.

Understandable given the alternative IMO.

Thanks Cortex u answered me perfectly.....still way out of my league....but thanks for explaining that to me.....

Posted by occrider on Sep-15-2003 19:36:

Posted by occrider on Sep-15-2003 19:37:

quote:
Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Edit: And, yes, I do know I'm a nerd.

Damn straight Mr. freezing point of Oxygen and Nitrogen at whatever Kelvin

Posted by Renegade on Sep-15-2003 19:43:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Cuz then we wouldn't be created in anybody's image

Ah. Silly me.

quote:
Btw, does anybody else think that aetheism (going by the definition of the belief that there is no God) is somewhat hypocritical?

No, atheism is a lack of a specific claim to knowledge, not a claim to knowledge in itself. Therefore, atheism is the lack of belief in a God, not the belief in a lack of God. Subtle but important difference.

Edit: Oh and thanks for the calculations, Tito. That number sure puts a lot of the IDer claims in perspective. :-/

Posted by occrider on Sep-15-2003 19:45:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade

No, atheism is a lack of a specific claim to knowledge, not a claim to knowledge in itself. Therefore, atheism is the lack of belief in a God, not the belief in a lack of God. Subtle but important difference.

Edit: Oh and thanks for the calculations, Tito. That number sure puts a lot of the IDer claims in perspective. :-/

So then what's the differences between aetheism and agnosticism?

Posted by tiesto14 on Sep-15-2003 19:47:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Basically, yes it's possible for God not to have a creator. But all I'm arguing is that if God doesn't need a creator to exist, why does the universe need a creator to exist? If God can exist without having been created by someone, why do people say that the universe can't exist without having been created by someone?

WOW thats some good points i never thought of....

i guess it comes down to people having "faith" over intellect...people "want" to beleive there has to be something far superior to anything we can create for, i suppose, a sense of security and comfort.

Not like anyone cares...but i personally beleive there IS a God and he DID create the universe, but he did not create human beings...i beleive we, as a species, evolved through millions of years...maybe God saw humans as future step in his creation but started us out as micro-organisms to see if we "would" evolve, like some twisted game of his.....how else can we explain tracing plant life back way before man - when God, according to the Bible, created man on the 5th or 6th day after he created the universe? or how we can trace dinosaurs before man? and what about neanderthals (sp?) and cromagnons which some say are man in stages of evolution?....until that can be explained to be then i take zero validity in the Adam & Eve story....but my thoughts are not on your guys levels so next...lol...

Posted by DrUg_Tit0 on Sep-15-2003 19:49:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Cuz then we wouldn't be created in anybody's image

Btw, does anybody else think that aetheism (going by the definition of the belief that there is no God) is somewhat hypocritical?

Well, believing there is no god is just like believing there is a god. Unprovable.

quote:

Damn straight Mr. freezing point of Oxygen and Nitrogen at whatever Kelvin

55 and 63K, respectively

Posted by occrider on Sep-15-2003 19:52:

quote:
Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Well, believing there is no god is just like believing there is a god. Unprovable.

yes that's what I was hinting at! Maybe I just don't understand the differences between Aetheism and agnosticism well enough. If aetheism is merely the lack of a belief (and not a denial in any way whatsover) then what differentiates aethism from agnosticism?

Posted by Renegade on Sep-15-2003 19:54:

Strong agnosticism is the belief that the first cause (be it God or the big bang or whatever) is entirely unknowable. It was originally coined by Thomas Huxley to define this belief.

Weak agnosticism can be defined in a number of ways depending on who you want to believe. Most of the time when someone says they're an agnostic it either means that they "don't know" whether God exists or not, or perhaps that God is, by definition, in some way unknowable, and thus it may be impossible to deduce whether or not he actually exists.

Posted by occrider on Sep-15-2003 20:01:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Strong agnosticism is the belief that the first cause (be it God or the big bang or whatever) is entirely unknowable. It was originally coined by Thomas Huxley to define this belief.

Weak agnosticism can be defined in a number of ways depending on who you want to believe. Most of the time when someone says they're an agnostic it either means that they "don't know" whether God exists or not, or perhaps that God is, by definition, in some way unknowable, and thus it may be impossible to deduce whether or not he actually exists.

So then what differentiates a weak agnostic, believing that they "don't know" whether God exists, from an aetheist who lacks belief? Also what are you hehe? Damn you weren't kidding about your sleep cycle.

Posted by tiesto14 on Sep-15-2003 20:02:

quote:
Originally posted by LiquidX
and on the Afterdeath, where those that have followed the right path, done right and believed.. though we will face judgement day. Theres much more to this, what Im talking right here takes alot of time to actually tell.. this is just my belief though. What I just wanted to point out is that, for those who believe, believe through Faith, and from that is what actually will help us be saved. But for those who want evidence, proofs to believe, or some kind of signs, I think that you will find many of it through the Bible, people will say is false, but there isnt any evidence that its false, more when its prophecies and teachies are nothing but for your own good, even if you are not religious, it teaches you how to be a better you. .. and yes, I always have many questions.. theres also those who pray.. and actually feel comfort when something is true.

On the "afterdeath" part......you say "beleived"....now is that to say that if one is a skeptic and questions the existance of God, the Bible and heaven they "might" not go to heaven?.....

I ask this because i really "want" to beleive in a heaven...but i find myself foten questioning God, the Bible and heaven and asking my friends to prove the truth behind it all....does that mean, if there is a heven, that i would not go?

If i would not go because of skeptism, doesnt that go against God gift of "free will"...didnt he allow us to think freely...so how can he condemn people who use their free will and question the unknown?...

Posted by occrider on Sep-15-2003 20:08:

quote:
Originally posted by tiesto14
If i would not go because of skeptism, doesnt that go against God gift of "free will"...didnt he allow us to think freely...so how can he condemn people who use their free will and question the unknown?...

That's what I was kind of alluding to when I asked the question of whether Djbaron believed in God having a master plan for everyone. If God has an intent or a master plan for each and every one of us (God meant for your wife to die of cancer and now she's in heaven) then doesn't that indicate that our destinies are pre-determined? If our fate is predetermined than doesn't that negate the whole theory of God giving us free will? If God has a master plan for my fate, whether it be an untimely death, or him showering me with good fortune, then how do I have free will to determine my fate?

Posted by tiesto14 on Sep-15-2003 20:23:

Posted by Renegade on Sep-15-2003 20:24:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
So then what differentiates a weak agnostic, believing that they "don't know" whether God exists, from an aetheist who lacks belief?

Well, exactly. Regardless of what you want to call yourself, if you don't believe in a God you're an atheist. When many people use the term "agnostic", though, what they're really talking about is a "suspension" of belief rather than a "lack" of belief (there's a slight albeit questionable difference). They don't have a specific belief in a God (which would technically make them an atheist) but they're still "suspending" their belief or lack of belief on the basis that more information may become available - that is, they don't think that, for whatever reason, the God question is answerable at this time.

Use a poll for an example:

Do you believe a historical Jesus ever existed?

a) Yes
b) No
c) Maybe/Don't Know

On the HJ question I'd consider myself an agnostic. I see that there is evidence supporting both perspectives (belief that he did/didn't exist) but the evidence supporting either perspective balances out to the extent that it is difficult for me to hold firm to the belief that Jesus did or did not exist. I don't feel that there is enough evidence to say that he did exist, but too much to say that he didn't - and I suppose that this is what the agnostics feel when it comes to the question of God.

Personally I don't see enough evidence to suspend my belief concerning the existence of a God.....

quote:
Also what are you hehe?

..... which is why I'm happy to call myself an atheist. I, like everyone else on this forum, was born an atheist, and - in the absense of any real evidence - have remained one to this day.

Posted by devonian rabbit on Sep-15-2003 20:29:

most of this has already been said several times, but here goes anyways... atheism means, literally, "without god-belief".. etymologically, a-(without) theism-(god belief). i consider myself an atheist in this literal sense, and i often refer to myself as an atheist. i don't hold a positive belief that any gods exist. however, common usage of the word "atheist" tends to portray "one who beliefs god does not exist." i tend not to follow that line of reasoning, as i don't think atheism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive.

but if anyone is interested, here is a paper that makes a case for using that alternate (not literal) meaning of atheism, and explains the differences between that definition of atheism, agnosticism and noncognitivism:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...definition.html

richard

Posted by Renegade on Sep-15-2003 20:30:

Posted by LiquidX on Sep-15-2003 21:53:

quote:
Originally posted by tiesto14
On the "afterdeath" part......you say "beleived"....now is that to say that if one is a skeptic and questions the existance of God, the Bible and heaven they "might" not go to heaven?.....

I ask this because i really "want" to beleive in a heaven...but i find myself foten questioning God, the Bible and heaven and asking my friends to prove the truth behind it all....does that mean, if there is a heven, that i would not go?

If i would not go because of skeptism, doesnt that go against God gift of "free will"...didnt he allow us to think freely...so how can he condemn people who use their free will and question the unknown?...

We are all in a plan. We are here to be tested, and once you die, you will have the opportunity to believe or repent.. know what I mean!?!.... and if you dont believe, then is because you havent searched or payed any attention.... but if you die without believing, you will have the chance later to repent, like I said and learn.

I think you are mis-understanding the gift of "free will" and what you question yourself. If you question the unknown, then try to find an answer, and if you are good enough, and really bond to know if theres a god, get yourself some time, be a good one, and pray.. if you really think you want some type of answer... or just, you may read the Bible, have you ever read it?!?!..

Posted by LiquidX on Sep-15-2003 22:01:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
That's what I was kind of alluding to when I asked the question of whether Djbaron believed in God having a master plan for everyone. If God has an intent or a master plan for each and every one of us (God meant for your wife to die of cancer and now she's in heaven) then doesn't that indicate that our destinies are pre-determined? If our fate is predetermined than doesn't that negate the whole theory of God giving us free will? If God has a master plan for my fate, whether it be an untimely death, or him showering me with good fortune, then how do I have free will to determine my fate?

God is "the all powerfull". We as human beings are not capable yet to understand many things, so making questions further then what we should know I dont know how to answer. But I will say this though. The plan, like I said before, is have a body, be able to sense, feel and live with a free will. We make our own choices. Now, we make our own destiny, but because your wife died of cancer, its because of the nature of us human. We all have to die some day, one way or another.. so I dont think that relating our fate been determined and the free will have nothing to do with each other. Free Will is done in order for us to make our own choices ( between good an evil ).. not that we choose our fate. Our lives and fate depends on God. He will not interfere though with the way thinks work here on earth.
How can you have free will to determine your faith anyways? .. imagine if we had the will to die whenver we want, thats out of this world hehehe.. thats something that only god knows.

Posted by LiquidX on Sep-15-2003 22:04:

quote:
Originally posted by tiesto14
Good point...but to play devil's advocate....maybe God did give us free will BUT also a predetermined path....and DURING are stay here we have free will to do what we please even though the end has already be written...in other words...God gave us this life...do with it what you please.

More like.. do what you please, but on Judgement day, your screwed if you are a person like Hitler or Bin Ladin.. or as bad as a raper.. know what I mean?

Posted by PeacefulWarrior on Sep-15-2003 22:35:

Re: there is no G-d? religion is bull? read this and I DARE YOU TO ARGUE :)

quote:
Originally posted by DJBARON
lets see if any of these people that laugh when I base things on G-d and religion can back up their laughs, or are, as we expect, full of SHIT!

Out of confusion you create something permanent,...the Absolute, God.

Posted by nic01445 on Sep-15-2003 23:25:

quote:
Originally posted by LiquidX
We are all in a plan. We are here to be tested, and once you die, you will have the opportunity to believe or repent.. know what I mean!?!.... and if you dont believe, then is because you havent searched or payed any attention....

...If you question the unknown, then try to find an answer, and if you are good enough, and really bond to know if theres a god, get yourself some time, be a good one, and pray.. if you really think you want some type of answer... or just, you may read the Bible, have you ever read it?!?!..

what about those who have earnestly looked for some sort of sign of gods existance? i have read most of the bible, but not its entirety, and i must say, have found no answers to my questions. I also have prayed, and prayed, and prayed; i've prayed my heart out. i have not found any answers to my prayers, no matter how hard i look.

Posted by LiquidX on Sep-15-2003 23:42:

quote:
Originally posted by nic01445
what about those who have earnestly looked for some sort of sign of gods existance? i have read most of the bible, but not its entirety, and i must say, have found no answers to my questions. I also have prayed, and prayed, and prayed; i've prayed my heart out. i have not found any answers to my prayers, no matter how hard i look.

Well, one must be spiritually bonded.. I mean.. if you try the following, like follow the commandments, lets say, and do good actions.. and pray along with it daily, you will feel different. Also, the Bible is something to really look and study, not just read through it, but study it. Thats why people go to church, to understand it better, although I have to admit that some churches you go and come out without understanding it still. But anyways, like I said, the Bible is something one must study deeply in order to understand it, and with it pray.. if you apply what the bibles teaches to your daily life, then you should be closer to get an answer... but if you are like one of those that prays, and at the second later your out doing drugs, cursing, and doing all this bad sided things, then I guess you will always be trying, if you know what I mean. This is just my belief.

Posted by CortexBomb on Sep-16-2003 01:55:

quote:
Originally posted by tiesto14
Not like anyone cares...but i personally beleive there IS a God and he DID create the universe, but he did not create human beings...i beleive we, as a species, evolved through millions of years...maybe God saw humans as future step in his creation but started us out as micro-organisms to see if we "would" evolve, like some twisted game of his.....how else can we explain tracing plant life back way before man - when God, according to the Bible, created man on the 5th or 6th day after he created the universe? or how we can trace dinosaurs before man? and what about neanderthals (sp?) and cromagnons which some say are man in stages of evolution?....until that can be explained to be then i take zero validity in the Adam & Eve story....but my thoughts are not on your guys levels so next...lol...

I like the conception of a God who merely sets the universe in motion, unsure of what will actually happen as a result myself.

It's one of the few conceptions that actually appeals to a logic minded person, and it doesn't conflict with the paradigm that science has been laying out for us, one that I tend to agree with.

I can't reconcile any vague God inclinations I have with the old testament for a number of reasons beyond the creation story, but it's not as though that's the only religion/conception of God making the rounds.

This is off topic quite a bit, but just to share my own conception, I have a willingness to entertain the notion of God, but in a more abstract way than religious people.

Basically, everything in the known universe at the start was one, what ancient philosophers would call the first principal, from that starting point everything emerged. Basically a philosophical rendering of what science would call the big bang.

Everything still has a 'memory' for lack of a better word of this initial togetherness, and all things are subtly interconnected as a result, sometimes we can feel this connectedness given the right conditions.

I could expound more, but suffice to say from a beginning like that it's not an overly large reach to say that something could have put it all into motion, indeed, something *had* to put it into motion, it's just a question of what that something was, a natural force or a sentient agent.

Posted by Sand Leaper on Sep-16-2003 07:03:

quote:
Originally posted by LiquidX
More like.. do what you please, but on Judgement day, your screwed if you are a person like Hitler or Bin Ladin.. or as bad as a raper.. know what I mean?

Well, protestants are taught that their salvation all comes down to their belief in Jesus,and that he died on the cross for mankind's sin to be removed. As long as you hold this to be your key belief, you will go to heaven when you die/on judgement day,and the things you did in your past life do not matter regarding this issue. That doesn't mean that you can walk around killing ppl since as long as you believe everything is OK,mind.

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