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Originally posted by TranceGiant myths� Can you stop dropping standardic slogans and abandon over-simplification? You draw us a picture where brutal military meets a bunch of humiliated angels. Who do you try to fool? I've never heard a more naive description of the post-Oslo period, you're ridiculous! "Israeli military kept killing civilians". That's teletubby level. Until the beginnings of the 90s the PLO declared that it won't rest until Israel was destroyed. That was the official PLO policy, just like today's Hamas. It was only after American pressure (establishing a new "order" which began with the 1991 Madrid conference) that the PLO leadership started to accept a two-state solution. After hesistating long time (which, I think, is pretty plausible given the experiences Israel had with Arafat and his gang) Israeli entered negotations reuslting in the Oslo-agreements where the Palestinians gained de facto independence. Until 2000 the PLO controlled more than 95% of the Palestinian population. Arafat had long enough time to create a basis on which a final peace agreement could be reached. However, he didn't care about economic growth (despite the fact that no other people on the world received as much money from the EU / US as the Palestinians......If u wanna know where the money went I'd suggest you take an atlas and look for "Zurich" and "Paris") education, not even the simplest infrastructure or a regular police force. Instead of preparing his people for a compromise he kept insisting on the "holy right to return to palestine" or bullshitting about "dying as a martyr for jerusalem". He finally proved that he's not up to a peaceful solution when he rejected both Taba and the Camp David offert. It's simple and clear, no need to look for excuses: "General Arafat" (remember how he insisted on being called GENERAL when being interviews by CNN's Christiana Amanpour 2 years ago?) will never change the uniform to a regular suit. He doesn't wanna end up as a political leader with *responsibilities", all he cares about is his role as "marytr", fighter, rebell..whatever. He doesnt care for his own people. Neither do the other corrupt basatards such as the al aqusa martyrs, Hamas or Jihad. All they want is power and destruction. Bottom Line: As long as the palestinian leaders will prefer Israel's destruction to fulfillment of Palestinian hopes and aspirations, you'll see the IDF reacting again and again. cause and effect is what they call it.

FYI:research results show yasser arafat is one of the reachest people in israel if not the reachest,from the iraqi,iranian and other nations money to sponser terror of course,he takes some to his own pocket..

quote:

Originally posted by dj adagnitio what about the many years before the uprising began? before anyone took up arms? no deal was reached then

which period are you talking about? even prior to the al-aqsa intifada terrorist blasted busses and shopping districts at their discretion.

edit - oops i see trancegiant beat me to it

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, all I'll say it's nice to finally have a person who can shed some light on the conflict from the palestinian side. It'll be interesting to see how the situation will develop.

LOL you mean you don't know how this situation is going to develop? Has ANYTHING really changed since this thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...?threadid=92328

To be honest I only read the Israel vs. Pal threads for the funny insults now. Everybody has their minds made up and it's a waste of time and effort to try to argue anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider To be honest I only read the Israel vs. Pal threads for the funny insults now.

haha, ya some of them get pretty imaginative.

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Everybody has their minds made up and it's a waste of time and effort to try to argue anymore.

i both agree and disagree. although people may have made up their mind about who is more to blame, it still serves a point to clear up historical information. opinions are one thing but proving them and disproving them based on facts is still worth the effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy i both agree and disagree. although people may have made up their mind about who is more to blame, it still serves a point to clear up historical information. opinions are one thing but proving them and disproving them based on facts is still worth the effort.

Yea that's true. I'll occasionally jump in to argue about a historical fact, but I've given up on arguing opinion and semantics. I think it was around Apriil or so that I figured out that I was arguing the same points over and over again couched in different words. Then in May I figured out that the only person listening to me was me haha.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Yea that's true. I'll occasionally jump in to argue about a historical fact, but I've given up on arguing opinion and semantics. I think it was around Apriil or so that I figured out that I was arguing the same points over and over again couched in different words. Then in May I figured out that the only person listening to me was me haha.

heh,so true

quote:

Originally posted by occrider LOL you mean you don't know how this situation is going to develop? Has ANYTHING really changed since this thread: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...?threadid=92328 To be honest I only read the Israel vs. Pal threads for the funny insults now. Everybody has their minds made up and it's a waste of time and effort to try to argue anymore.

Haha, I do have a general idea of the outcome, maybe I should have rephrased it so here it goes: It'll be interesting to see how many posts will be posted in this thread before someone gets banned.

I'm not drawing a picture where a brutal military meets a bunch of humilitated angels. I'm drawing you a picture where a brutal and racist military is destroying the lives of 3.3 million human beings.
This is not ridiculous, this is what has happened over and over throughout human history. But you don't use history to understand today. You would rather use your racist ideology of us vs. the "other" and since we're different from the other, it makes us moral and them strange and immoral. I'm starting to get theoretical here and I don't want to get into that now. I can't believe how far I have to go to explain something so simple yet so difficult for you.

During the Oslo period, the Israeli military would fire on civilians who were out demonstrating peacefully. It's as if the police fired on civilians who were demonstrating the war on Iraq last year-with tanks, guns, and gas grenades. Some of these grenades made you hallucinate pain on your body and you were hospitalized. They did kill civilians in cold blood whether you like it or not. Read reports from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and various NGOs.

I already covered quite clearly how the PLO accepted Israel's right to exist since the 80s and informally accepted the two state solution since the late 70s. I won't go over that again.

Who ruled over the territories during the Oslo period?
Through the Oslo Agreement and the agreements that followed, the Palestinian territories were divided into three types of areas:

Area A: The Palestinian Authority (PA) has complete security control and has control over civil administration. Area A today accounts for 18% of the total area of the West Bank and Gaza.

Area B: The Israeli military authority has responsibility for security matters and the Palestinian Authority has responsibility for some civil administration authorities. Area B today accounts for 24% of the total area of the West Bank and Gaza.

Area C: The Israelis manage all security and civil affairs. Area C today accounts for 59% of the total area of the West Bank and Gaza.

According to the Oslo Agreement, Israel has full control over foreign affairs and defense issues related to the Palestinian territories. According to these agreements the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to set up a defense or foreign affairs department.

Israel has complete control over the borders of the Palestinian territories. Movement of persons and goods through these borders are subject to Israeli approval. Palestinian police presence at border crossings is a symbolic one with no actual authority or power.

Israel has control over all roads in the West Bank and Gaza, with the exception of roads in Area A, and can block all movement of persons and goods on these roads. Moreover, Israel controls the movement of Palestinian civilians and PA officials both inside the country and while traveling abroad. All domestic and foreign travel of Palestinian citizens and officials is subject to Israeli army approval.

Israel has control over 80% of water resources in the West Bank and Gaza and complete control over the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip, with the exception of a very small area (8 km). The Palestinians have not been allowed to build a seaport, although the agreements granted them that right. Fishing boats are monitored by the Israeli navy and are not allowed to go farther than 10 km into the sea.

Produced by The Palestine Monitor,
An Information Clearinghouse
On behalf of the Palestine NGO Network (PNGO)

I've been there. I saw soldiers and checkpoints. PLO officials were sometimes there with the soldiers. But it was the soldiers who checked everyone.

Yes Arafat called himself "General Arafat" because Israel was destroying his infrastructure. I would say the same thing if they were doing it to me. Israel wants a fight, then I'll take up whatever weapon I have and my men and we will fight. You want me to go back to being a general, I will. It's what you are asking for.

We are still a people fighting to survive. We still have heroes to look up to and freedom fighters to fight with. But we're not trying to fool ourselves into thinking we can destroy Israel. But we will fight until the occupation ends.

again,this is becuse all israelies are evil,have no soul and they want to kill arabs in their lives,sometimes i cry at night thinking: why cant we be more like the other clean and moral countries in the middle east??? Why???????????



























come on,how much time did you thought i will be serious with this guy?



BTW:this is pure bull that Pal" have wrote,arafat has admitted that he was involved with terror in 96 and said he will stop,but clearly he hasent,and in addition ive read tons of terror Org. leaders letters and articles that say they still dont agree to give up israel to have only what they deserve and as arafat said a couple of weeks ago in arabic:"jerusalem will not be divided into 2 parts like berlin,never!,it will be ours.."

the pal" propeganda SUckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I'm not drawing a picture where a brutal military meets a bunch of humilitated angels. I'm drawing you a picture where a brutal and racist military is destroying the lives of 3.3 million human beings. This is not ridiculous, this is what has happened over and over throughout human history. But you don't use history to understand today. You would rather use your racist ideology of us vs. the "other" and since we're different from the other, it makes us moral and them strange and immoral. I'm starting to get theoretical here and I don't want to get into that now. I can't believe how far I have to go to explain something so simple yet so difficult for you. I've been there. I saw soldiers and checkpoints. PLO officials were sometimes there with the soldiers. But it was the soldiers who checked everyone. Yes Arafat called himself "General Arafat" because Israel was destroying his infrastructure. I would say the same thing if they were doing it to me. Israel wants a fight, then I'll take up whatever weapon I have and my men and we will fight. You want me to go back to being a general, I will. It's what you are asking for. We are still a people fighting to survive. We still have heroes to look up to and freedom fighters to fight with. But we're not trying to fool ourselves into thinking we can destroy Israel. But we will fight until the occupation ends.

Go back and read what I wrote: 95% of the *population*, not the actual area, the land. But since the Palestinians cried about being occupied and not 60 or 70% of the area, it's obviously a myth (repeated and repeated until, sadly, the average observer believed it). Oslo was always seen as a bridge, not a final dstination. Of course you can't expect Israel to create a Palestinian state from one day to another, now can you? You gotta gain trust, see evidence that going this way does indeed lead somewhere.

Nice how you're putting ideologies into my mouth! The racist argument is getting pretty lame and boring, to be honest. You guys complain about fearing the word "antisemite" whever criticizing Israel, yet its your own side which doesnt miss an oppurtunity to label Israelis and those who try to justifiy their policies, as "racists" and "nazis". Paradox.
You didn't even respond to one point which I brought up with regards to the palestinian behavior after Oslo. Note that I didn't even start listing the breaches against Israel ( palestinian terrorism form the territories which started in 1994!) but only the "domestic" problems. The failure which hamed the own population! Of course wou wouldn't care about difficulties between the Palestinians themselves, why bother and look at it the sophisticated way! YOU are over-simplifying and creating a "We" vs. "You" image. Not me. Instead of questioning Palestinian policy such as the nevereding agitation in the Palestinian media, you're repating the same slogans again and again. You drift from the essential to banalities which are not roots but symptoms of the conflict. Truth hurts, though.

The truth is that by "fighting" , as you so romatically put it, nothing has been achieved so far. Egypt regained the Sinai through negotiations, not through threats and killings. Syria was on its way to regain teh Golan, again through negotiations only. The Palestinians just needed to sign a fucking paper but didn't. They chose the way of force, and so far, they've only lost. A lot.
There's tons of evidence showing that Arafat was fully aware the consequences and yet (or therefore) chose this way. As I already stated: He simply doesn't wanna become a politician. From the very beginning of the piss process he called Oslo a "Trojan Horse" a means to an ends. he never stopped envouraging terrorism and hatred against the "zionists" and he never will. Can't wait till this psychotic guy on ego-trip will finallyfuck off for good.

P.s: By your "private" experiences you won't get any extra sympathies. I could go on and start describing the fearful life of the average Israeli, but it's only leading into the banalities which seem to be your central argument.

condemnation before investigation is the mark of a fool

the problem with both sides in this conflict is that both wants everything now, black or white, all or nothing...

little to no progress can be made with 2-5-10 years plans. There's no patience whatsover on both sides, especially on the Palestinian side who has been living in tents and miserable conditions for 50 years.

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the problem with both sides in this conflict is that both wants everything now, black or white, all or nothing...

sense of entitlement blinds the senses

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President Harry S Truman Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.

Intifada

I don�t expect Israel to create a Palestinian state. I expect Israel to remove its military from our land so we can create our state. Negotiations were undermined because the Israeli military was acting immorally in the Palestinian territories, continuously harassing people, not allowing them to go to work and earn their income, shooting at demonstrators, blocking freedom of movement where pregnant women lost their children because of having to give birth at a checkpoint and on and on. The people decided to resist. Unfortunately, Hamas used a suicide bomber, but that did not stop Arafat from negotiating. But it stopped Israel. There shouldn�t be any negotiations in the first place. The occupation is a violation of human rights. Palestinians are treated like dogs in their own land. But we choose to do what Israel wants us to do over and over. Once we get fed up, we fight back. And some methods of fighting can be wrong and immoral.

I�m not putting ideologies in your mouth, you are putting them in your head. Especially Viber. He keeps arguing that Israelis love to kill Palestinians in a sarcastic manner, and at the same time saying that our resistance organizations want to destroy Israel. How racist is that? I could easily tell you the same thing in a sarcastic tone: Palestinians love to kill Israelis and are evil and have no soul. Please, start arguing intelligently.

The Hamas suicide bombing that took place in 1994 was a response to the Hebron massacre by an Israeli terrorist.

You want me to question the problems in Palestinian society? The problems of a society are not primary until the invasion of that society by another is over. There are problems in every society, buddy. I can give you the problems of Israeli society and so-called democracy. You just love to get off the real problem and blame it on the problems of Palestinian society and PLO. Of course they have problems. There are Palestinian gangs in Gaza right now that threaten each other. There are corrupt officials in the PLO and more. But you would rather put the blame of failure on these problems rather than the continuous occupation that prevent cures for these problems. It�s kinda difficult to fix our problems when we have been invaded by a foreign power and when our leader is stuck in his Ramallah hole.

You want us to sign a fuckin paper. Exactly. That�s your problem. You want us to sign whatever the fuck you present us. Well we didn�t like that paper. And we will not sign it until you write a better one. One that�s fair and not the garbage that Barak likes to call �generous�. And Arafat does what his people want. He represents us. And we wanted intifada. Simple as that. He told us to shut-up countless times during Oslo. Until he finally realized Israel�s deceit. He supported our decision and we support him.

And I�m not asking for your �extra-sympathy�, if you have any sympathy inside you, of course.

Re: Intifada

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian The people decided to resist. Unfortunately, Hamas used a suicide bomber, but that did not stop Arafat from negotiating. But it stopped Israel.

of course it would stop israel. negotiations can not be detached from the physical happenings of the surroundings. it was arafat's responsiblity to ensure that hamas stop using terrorism, ie disband the organization completely.

the israeli foriegn ministry released a statement in May 2001 saying that:

"Politically, the West Bank and Gaza Strip is best regarded as territory over which there are competing claims which should be resolved in peace process negotiations. Israel has valid claims to the territory based on the fact that the territory was not under the soveriegnty of any state and came under Israeli control in a war of self-defense, imposed on Israel. At the same time, Israel recognizes that the Palestinians also entertain legitimate claims to the area."

obviously Israel is aware that the palestinians have legitimate claims the territories. Claims that the status of which will be concluded only in peaceful negotiations.

quote:

There shouldn�t be any negotiations in the first place. The occupation is a violation of human rights.

says who? is the current occupation of afghanistan a violation of human rights? was the occupation of japan after WW2 a violation of human rights?
many things are violations of human rights. i tend to rationalize them in scales. i feel that being randomly killed on a bus is a bigger human right issue then being occupied.

quote:

There are Palestinian gangs in Gaza right now that threaten each other. There are corrupt officials in the PLO and more. But you would rather put the blame of failure on these problems rather than the continuous occupation that prevent cures for these problems. It�s kinda difficult to fix our problems when we have been invaded by a foreign power and when our leader is stuck in his Ramallah hole.

thats an excuse and you know it. no reasonable person would allow independence to a group of people who show little to no responsibility in governing themselves. I am of the opinion that if the palestinians truly aspire to be independent the must prove it before the matter. As more responisibility is proven, more of the occupation will disipate. tit-for-tat but in the good sense. not all one sided. and oh ya, your 'leader' is running the show very well even if stuck in his hole.

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You want us to sign a fuckin paper. Exactly. That�s your problem. You want us to sign whatever the fuck you present us. Well we didn�t like that paper. And we will not sign it until you write a better one. One that�s fair and not the garbage that Barak likes to call �generous�. And Arafat does what his people want. He represents us. And we wanted intifada. Simple as that. He told us to shut-up countless times during Oslo. Until he finally realized Israel�s deceit. He supported our decision and we support him.

comprimise. thats all that i can say. neither side is going to get everything they wanted. sacrificies will have to be made. the impression i get is that the palestinians have an "all or nothing" mentality when negotiating.

Actually you are mistaken when you say negotiations cannot be detached from the physical happenings of the surroundings. South Africa was burning with violence when negotations were taking place to lift Apartheid. Israel on the other hand loves to use Palestinian anger as an excuse to stop negotiations and take more land. And if you think that negotiations cannot be detached from the surroundings then I guess Palestinians have a right to stop negotiating as well. Israel never kept its responsibility to make it easy for Palestinians to live under the occupation. Nevertheless, the PLO is always available for negotitations, but Israel isn't. Too bad. Look at the consequences yourself.
When Arafat signed the Oslo accords, he officially became Israel's police officer. I don't see a reason for dismantling any Palestinian resistance in light of Israel's own terrorist behavior.

The occupation of Iraq is a violation of human rights.

You don't feel that being occupied is such a big issue because you don't know the meaning of it. You can't begin to imagine the torture of Israel's occupation.
And who are you to "allow" us independence? We shouldn't have to have the oppressor's approval. The Americans didn't take Britain's approval for independence.

Re: Intifada

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I don�t expect Israel to create a Palestinian state. I expect Israel to remove its military from our land so we can create our state. Negotiations were undermined because the Israeli military was acting immorally in the Palestinian territories, continuously harassing people, not allowing them to go to work and earn their income, shooting at demonstrators, blocking freedom of movement where pregnant women lost their children because of having to give birth at a checkpoint and on and on. The people decided to resist. Unfortunately, Hamas used a suicide bomber, but that did not stop Arafat from negotiating. But it stopped Israel. There shouldn�t be any negotiations in the first place. The occupation is a violation of human rights. Palestinians are treated like dogs in their own land. But we choose to do what Israel wants us to do over and over. Once we get fed up, we fight back. And some methods of fighting can be wrong and immoral. I�m not putting ideologies in your mouth, you are putting them in your head. Especially Viber. He keeps arguing that Israelis love to kill Palestinians in a sarcastic manner, and at the same time saying that our resistance organizations want to destroy Israel. How racist is that? I could easily tell you the same thing in a sarcastic tone: Palestinians love to kill Israelis and are evil and have no soul. Please, start arguing intelligently. The Hamas suicide bombing that took place in 1994 was a response to the Hebron massacre by an Israeli terrorist. You want me to question the problems in Palestinian society? The problems of a society are not primary until the invasion of that society by another is over. There are problems in every society, buddy. I can give you the problems of Israeli society and so-called democracy. You just love to get off the real problem and blame it on the problems of Palestinian society and PLO. Of course they have problems. There are Palestinian gangs in Gaza right now that threaten each other. There are corrupt officials in the PLO and more. But you would rather put the blame of failure on these problems rather than the continuous occupation that prevent cures for these problems. It�s kinda difficult to fix our problems when we have been invaded by a foreign power and when our leader is stuck in his Ramallah hole. You want us to sign a fuckin paper. Exactly. That�s your problem. You want us to sign whatever the fuck you present us. Well we didn�t like that paper. And we will not sign it until you write a better one. One that�s fair and not the garbage that Barak likes to call �generous�. And Arafat does what his people want. He represents us. And we wanted intifada. Simple as that. He told us to shut-up countless times during Oslo. Until he finally realized Israel�s deceit. He supported our decision and we support him. And I�m not asking for your �extra-sympathy�, if you have any sympathy inside you, of course.

i cant find any sense in what you wrote,and not as a jewish person but as a regular human being that lives in this world.

quote:

i cant find any sense in what you wrote,and not as a jewish person but as a regular human being that lives in this world.

maybe because it's written in english

oh and tahiti slides in for a quick and easy won!



*clap* *clap* *clap*

This thread is proceeding nicely! I haven't seen a mid-east debate like this in tranceaddict what is it, 4 maybe 5 days now...

Bravo, bravo!

Don't stop now come on, Encore! Encore!

quote:

Originally posted by tathi maybe because it's written in english

arafat whould laugh if he will see this post

quote:

Originally posted by Viber arafat whould laugh if he will see this post

Call it a hunch, but I don't think his tastes in music involve electronica.

Of course, I've been wrong in the past......

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Call it a hunch, but I don't think his tastes in music involve electronica.

are you kiddin?!,its house music all night long in the mokataa

we enter 5764 with a bang! look at how the level and tone has already been raised here... chilonim? dont notice it too?

Palestinians posts are informative and from the heart. I see the anger and understand it fully. Basically, Israel is not in the position to give palestinians their nation when they themselves tore their homes away from their arms in 1948 when the sickening zionists greedily occupied and removed the arab/palestinian population.

These "offers" that Palestinians receive from Isreal is pathetic.
Both socities need to agree on a plausible contract that the INTERNATIONAL community also agrees upon.

Why would the palestinians accept an offer from their oppressors and think its truly "generous"

HAAHAHHA

And Viber, Palestinian has made you look like a fool countless times. And you are only fueling you stupid-like image with the denial in your responses. Stop calling everything bullshit. You have not backed up any of your arguments and only repsond with one liners that stil dont make sense.

what a "deep shit"...hahahahaha

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus oh and tahiti slides in for a quick and easy won! *clap* *clap* *clap* This thread is proceeding nicely! I haven't seen a mid-east debate like this in tranceaddict what is it, 4 maybe 5 days now... Bravo, bravo! Don't stop now come on, Encore! Encore!

ahh, yoepus yoepus yoepus, don't make me give you another lesson in english

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