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quote:

Originally posted by blazed it this god is obsolete thing appears to be more frequent among those in western or westernized countries,but it is not limited to them. I am personally agnostic/deist (good one occ I totally forgot this term), I don't care if somebody is religious but i hate when people preach to me about religion because I should have the damn right to believe what the hell i believe in without some foo telling me that i'm wrong or I'm going to hell or some other shit like that. I mean in the end if i'm wrong then I'm wrong. I also have beef with organized religion because I believe that once religion is organized it is usually hierachical in nature and I believe that gives too much leeway to be corrupt by the leaders and their ideals----> i.e. the pope being infallible (woo man this one has caused much pain through history) you know it's other people that appoint or proclaim the heads of their own religions ---> such as the cardinals and stuff from the catholic church who vote for whom should be the pope, politics can get into this. don't mean to pick on catholics mind you, they just have some good examples i can use. i think i may look into buddhism, it seems less a religion to me than a philosophical outlook on life, you know minus the whole reincarnation bit (i haven' done any research on it yet, but i will)

clap clap clap (for lack of a smiley... i really agree with you...esp the being preached to thing...

The church has a long history of persecuting scientists and attacking their findings. Whether you're talking about Sun centered solar system, round earth, or evolution, it doesn�t matter. The church try�s to discredit scientific theories it deems a threat, until it starts to look ridiculous then it moves on to the next theory.

Just yesterday I read �Roman Catholic leaders were claiming that the deadly HIV virus can pass through tiny holes in condoms.� This is an example of the tactics they use in their holy war against science (agenda). Too bad they'll do anything, even endanger, thousands of lives to preserve their inflexable, irrational rules.

Yeah, I have issues with the Catholic CHURCH hehe.

inhibition: Micro and Macro evolution is what the debate is on.

THE debate as in worldwide, not this thread

wow lots of good posts.

cheers to Mr. Opus.

first off

quote:

Originally posted by kewlness Everybody thought the world was flat before Columbus sailed around the world.

it was widely known way before columbus that the world was round. in fact the circumference of the earth was calculated i think during the classical age. and i'm pretty sure Magellan was the first to sail all the way aroun the world.

Why don't many christians stop to consider that maybe evolution was just the means that god used to put humans on this earth?
The Bible should not be taken literaly. It is a conglomeratoin of many writings written hundreds of years ago by different people who had their own agendas. Some stuff made the cut and some stuff didn't.
I grew up as a Catholic (today I would say I'm deist/agnostic, I by no means deny an existence of god, but i don't necesarily believe in the popular personified version of him, nor organized religon). I went to a Catholic school and had a pretty strong education in Catholic theology.
According to Catholic Theology, the story of Adam and Eve was used to explain man's original creation and its fall from perfection into a state of inperfection and thus the existence of Free Will which requires us to live in a physical 4 dimension (4th dimension being time) universe.
In my catholic school in science class we were taught evolution and that it was the most logical and plausable way that humans were physically created. In theology class we learned that the physical existance can be explained by evolution and that the spiritual existance can be explained by god. evolution was just a process set for by god.


now whether I believe this all I don't know. I firmly believe in evolution, i think to think otherwise is quite foolish. My current interpretation of God is the entity which encompases everything.
Humans are made up of many different systems, and one of our key buliding block is the cell. The cell is made up of chemicals which are made up of atoms, which are made up of protons, neutrons and electrons which are made up of quarks and so forth etc...
anyway, my sorta interpretation is humans are just sorta one of the building blocks of the elements that make up God.

thats sorta my understanding, i'm always thinking about it and coming up with new ideas and interpretations and thinking about the human condition.

i hope i don't offend anyone here but, i think many people who say "they feel god, or they just know exists" are not delving deep enough into things. they are living in the bliss of ignorance.
humans have many feelings which are triggered by things in thier life and by suppressed desires rooted deep in their conscious. almost everyone has some sort of desire for companionship and security (or that rock they can count on). Thus they tell themselves that god does exist and that they feel him in themselves. so they hold onto whatever they can to tell themselves it is truly there. and turn every event in their life into something they can attribute to a higher being. this is not a bad thing tho. this sense of believing in god can make people live happy lives, and shouldn't that be the purpose of life?

also most miracles can be explained scientificly. all those plagues in the old testament and moses parting the river can also be explained scientificly. but maybe thats how god works, according to natural law, in fact if he created the natural world as the creationists point out doesnt it only make sense that he follows the natural laws?

don't take all this as what i necesarily believe or do not believe. just some points i'd like to throw out to you peeps.

Living Godless and disease ridden we put our faith in the music.
For some, the only spiritual experience they get is with music.

Re: Re: Re: God and Evolution..

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax But making a life choice based on a "I read it in a science book" kind of attitude is what pisses me off.

This comment, I do not like.

How is "I read it in a science book" any better than "I read it in the bible?"

Or possibly, "I read it in the bible and confirmed it in the debunked 'research' papers of religious scientists?"

You're actually trying to liken education to ignorance. Unbelievable. I'm ALL for questioning the things one learns/hears/reads/sees, but I think that comment was a little over the top. "Science books" are far more credible sources than "religious books."


I have a philosophical question for everyone, and I want you to seriously think about it:

Do you think you would have come up with the idea of God, independently, if you hadn't gotten it from organized religion?

Re: Re: Re: Re: God and Evolution..

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut This comment, I do not like. How is "I read it in a science book" any better than "I read it in the bible?" Or possibly, "I read it in the bible and confirmed it in the debunked 'research' papers of religious scientists?" You're actually trying to liken education to ignorance. Unbelievable. I'm ALL for questioning the things one learns/hears/reads/sees, but I think that comment was a little over the top. "Science books" are far more credible sources than "religious books." I have a philosophical question for everyone, and I want you to seriously think about it: Do you think you would have come up with the idea of God, independently, if you hadn't gotten it from organized religion?

Amen. How can you say it's ridiculous for people to follow science based on their reading of a textbook when Christians have faith due to the Bible? It's the same thing.

Personally, I think organized religion is a sham. If you have faith, more power to you. But to only practice that faith one day out of the week makes absolutely no sense.

I'm a Buddhist, and just practice the philosophy day in and day out, I don't need to attend some sort of meeting to feel accepted. God takes on many forms for many people, as long as you're striving to be a better person because of it, that's great. But to say you're right and everyone else is wrong is ridiculous as well.

The whole religious thing I find to be sooooo silly, I want whoever is reading this thread to take a look at the link bellow and REALLY TRY to understand just how small we are and at the same time TRY to make yourself believe that something that took the form of you and me created it all. WOW, only a human could come up with narrow minded silliness. Folks, my point is this; I find it rather egotistical of us (humans) to actually think OUR god made it all. How can someone with the same brain capacity as myself have it all figured out, how can you sit there and not understand what you are, yet understand what made you? Sorry folks but your one big science experiment. Also, I there is a god that put me on the plant why would he deem it necessary for me to worship him, seems kind of weird to me. Say a pray for me.



READ THIS STORY

The Hubble Deep Filed story -
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pr...eases/96-01.txt

The Pictures -
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/1996/01/image

Re: God and Evolution..

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec Well in light of this past summer i have gone through hell...literally. Im goin to take the post to vent about how much i have suffered in this world but yet i continue to push on ahead and look towards the light of god and the music that keeps me going on. My gf i was dating gave me herpes and clymadia this past summer..right when we decided to settle down. She broke down and fell on her knees for me and begged for forgiveness... Any other guy would of left but i needed to understand Why? Why must things like this happen..the feeling of seeing death in its face (possibly catching aids but thank god i didnt) You see God has been there for me...i feel his prescence in my life..he wants me to change from being an alcoholic and i have. I almost crashed several times in my mustang....but something supernatural has guided me away from death... im scared everybody..i dont wanna die people....i have cried and been depressed this whole entire year. My gf is all i got..i cant tell none of my friends wut i have..i have to take more than 1000 pills this year.... But i feel like God is there for me toooo....picking me away from the bad and showing me life can be worse.... I have had problems with my gurl recently...but it has all settled down..to her remorse and true love she has for me. BUt this brings me to my main topic....do yall believe in a god dat has lifted u up away from sadness.... do yall believe in the theory of evolution? some argue the theory of evolution has many flaws and not explaining the supernatural... wut do yall believe and wut does life as we know it boil down to?

- Dude. Its very good that you supported yourself with believing in god. I believe in god and if you have faith I have felt it.. Whatever, call me religious, but its worked within me, and makes me feel good.

I consider myself an agnostic, I guess. I've considered learning more about Buddhism, though, because it's entirely spiritual and free from the brainwashing of organized religion. Instead of forcing things down people's throats, it seems to just offer a spiritual interpretation of life.

But I don't know enough about it to make a call... if I had more time I might do some serious investigation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: God and Evolution..

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut This comment, I do not like. How is "I read it in a science book" any better than "I read it in the bible?" Or possibly, "I read it in the bible and confirmed it in the debunked 'research' papers of religious scientists?" You're actually trying to liken education to ignorance. Unbelievable. I'm ALL for questioning the things one learns/hears/reads/sees, but I think that comment was a little over the top. "Science books" are far more credible sources than "religious books." I have a philosophical question for everyone, and I want you to seriously think about it: Do you think you would have come up with the idea of God, independently, if you hadn't gotten it from organized religion?

well if you read the whole thing instead of the parts you want to respond to, I was merely using it as an example. I said people basing life decisions on no research is foolish and ignorant. Read harder, grasshopper.

ok... personally, i am not interested in the creation/evolution debate and don't find it that important.

I think the main thing that needs to be focused on is whether the existence of God is real or false.

Proving the existence of God, can NEVER BE DONE. You simply can't prove it. God doesn't have ANY proof of His existence for a reason. He wants you to make a choice. This is the main thing in believing in God; you don't believe because you have evidence that He exists. You choose to believe because you have faith in His existence. I could write a 5000 word essay on trying to prove that God exists and I would bet that absolutely NO ONE will believe just because they read my essay. Christians aren't trying to prove that what believe is true; if that is the basis of our beliefs, then NO ONE will believe.

Let me give you a story of how I decided to believe in God. Like a lot of you, I was brought up with Christian beliefs and went to Church and a lot of that. As I grew up into my teens, I started doubting everything that had been spoonfed into my mouth. Then I found trance music and was saved (LOL, j/k ignore that last sentence.) But I was really struggling during my teen years with what the purpose of my existence was. There was absolutely no proof of God existing and I felt like I was worshiping some "Jesus" guy and I thought that was pretty BS. A couple years ago though, I went to a seminar thing, and I have forgotten everything that I heard there, except that I should believe in God by faith instead of by evidence. I started doing that, first few weeks it felt like I was praying to nothing. Then I remember once, I started really liking this girl and I asked her out, and got totally rejected and humiliated. That caused me to go through about a half-year depression phase. I was so sad and depressed, it was such a bad time in my life. I started crying to God for help, and I found that I was actually starting to feel better because I realised that I needed to have a dependency on God. My faith in God grew stronger and I found out that the more I depended on God to guide me through life, the more God was revealing Himself to me. And I have counted on God to guide me through my life ever since.

Ok, from my long story, basically the point is, God does not reveal Himself to you. You have to look for Him, and only then will you truly find God. God won't open the door unless you knock. A lot of people try to either find the answers to their life, and/or think that if God truly existed, then He would just by some means of divine intervention, tell you that He existed. That is not the POINT OF WHY WE BELIEVE! I looked for God and I had faith in Him that He existed, and only then, did I truly find God.

Hope I wasn't too preachy again...


And finally, great thread!!! Much better than those "OMG, I want to buttsecks _______ " or "I had sex with my showerhead" lol... Even though they can be entertaining at times

pussy

there is no god

you just think that so you will feel better

im not trying to sound bad to you or anything, because we all have our believes, but i dont believe there is a god

if there was, would he / she let me be addicted to meth? or suffer extremly from 9823743 disorders?

meh whatever

You gotta want it.

quote:

Originally posted by netw3rkd if there was, would he / she let me be addicted to meth? or suffer extremly from 9823743 disorders?

Do you really want the answer to that

i know it would be yes, cos if i were a jesus freak, id be a sinner

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: God and Evolution..

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax well if you read the whole thing instead of the parts you want to respond to, I was merely using it as an example. I said people basing life decisions on no research is foolish and ignorant. Read harder, grasshopper.

Yes, the classic answer from the stubborn, "read more carefully."

I read your post. In its entirety. Frankly, I think you understand very little about evolution and the other things you argue against, and that's why I think it's hypocritical of you to be telling people not to base their decisions on accepted facts and theories (i.e. in science books) but rather on grandiose storytelling, rhetoric, and logical fallacies (the bible and the work of most Christian Scientists).

Yes, I see that you have a few references. Sadly, you seem to be inflicted with a very severe confirmation bias on this issue.

You claim to be accepting of other people's beliefs and not want to start any arguments, and yet in all of your posts related to this issue, I can sense a thinly veiled sense of superiority in your tone, like so many other "devout" people do. I wonder why that's such a common trait? Regardless of the reason, that's why I posted that thing about Buddhism above - it's the only religion that doesn't try to assert its superiority over other belief systems.

I knew MisterOpus would be drawn to this thread like a fly to honey . At any rate, like I said, despite my insane opposition to the church I myself belief in a God. I don't believed in catholocism (raised), I don't believe in the bible, I don't even necessarily believe in Jesus, but I DO believe in a God of some kind that we are incapable of knowing anything about.

But what irritates me FIRST and foremost, are the people who think that we are created in God's own image. What kind of fucked up arrogant mentality is that??? It's the same type of shit as geocentric theory.

quote:

Originally posted by kewlness ok... personally, i am not interested in the creation/evolution debate and don't find it that important. I think the main thing that needs to be focused on is whether the existence of God is real or false. Proving the existence of God, can NEVER BE DONE. You simply can't prove it. God doesn't have ANY proof of His existence for a reason. He wants you to make a choice. This is the main thing in believing in God; you don't believe because you have evidence that He exists. You choose to believe because you have faith in His existence. I could write a 5000 word essay on trying to prove that God exists and I would bet that absolutely NO ONE will believe just because they read my essay. Christians aren't trying to prove that what believe is true; if that is the basis of our beliefs, then NO ONE will believe. Let me give you a story of how I decided to believe in God. Like a lot of you, I was brought up with Christian beliefs and went to Church and a lot of that. As I grew up into my teens, I started doubting everything that had been spoonfed into my mouth. Then I found trance music and was saved (LOL, j/k ignore that last sentence.) But I was really struggling during my teen years with what the purpose of my existence was. There was absolutely no proof of God existing and I felt like I was worshiping some "Jesus" guy and I thought that was pretty BS. A couple years ago though, I went to a seminar thing, and I have forgotten everything that I heard there, except that I should believe in God by faith instead of by evidence. I started doing that, first few weeks it felt like I was praying to nothing. Then I remember once, I started really liking this girl and I asked her out, and got totally rejected and humiliated. That caused me to go through about a half-year depression phase. I was so sad and depressed, it was such a bad time in my life. I started crying to God for help, and I found that I was actually starting to feel better because I realised that I needed to have a dependency on God. My faith in God grew stronger and I found out that the more I depended on God to guide me through life, the more God was revealing Himself to me. And I have counted on God to guide me through my life ever since. Ok, from my long story, basically the point is, God does not reveal Himself to you. You have to look for Him, and only then will you truly find God. God won't open the door unless you knock. A lot of people try to either find the answers to their life, and/or think that if God truly existed, then He would just by some means of divine intervention, tell you that He existed. That is not the POINT OF WHY WE BELIEVE! I looked for God and I had faith in Him that He existed, and only then, did I truly find God. Hope I wasn't too preachy again... And finally, great thread!!! Much better than those "OMG, I want to buttsecks _______ " or "I had sex with my showerhead" lol... Even though they can be entertaining at times

i've heard this alot about how you "have to look for god" for him to reveal himself to you. while there may be some arguements for this like you tried to point out, if god doesn't exist (i'm not denying the existence of god, just trying to point this out), well then of course god isn't gonna exist unless you "let him reveal" himself too you because by "looking for god" you are creating the existence of a god in your own emotional life. when you seek god, you have a goal of finding something to fulfill some emptyness in your life. you can tell yourself this god exists to fill this emptyness and you will hold on to this belief and feelings that it exists to fill this emptyness.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: God and Evolution..

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut You claim to be accepting of other people's beliefs and not want to start any arguments, and yet in all of your posts related to this issue, I can sense a thinly veiled sense of superiority in your tone, like so many other "devout" people do. ...Buddhism it's the only religion that doesn't try to assert its superiority over other belief systems.

I agree with you. I was going to take Orbax to task on his anti intellectual/creationist remarks but choose not to cause I doubt any logical argument would have any impact.

I gotta laugh when I hear creationists and religious zealots favorite fall back position, the old claim that you can't disprove that god exists. While this may be true, I'd love to see how accepting they would be of a person who believed in a pagan religion. You can't disprove the sun god Ra or the Greek god Zeus doesn't exist can you so they must really exist too.

Look I believe in the Christian one god but that's only because I was raised to believe that, it didn�t come naturally to me. If you grew up in ancient Egypt, guess what you would believe in their pagan gods. Bottom line all religions are man made and have to be accepted on faith. So think long and hard about that next time you want dispute scientific theories or say you can just feel that God truly exists.

Ok im going to bed. God bless everyone.

ps I just remembered some funny phrase back in college that someone has lost an argument when the envoke either god or hitler to prove their point.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider But what irritates me FIRST and foremost, are the people who think that we are created in God's own image. What kind of fucked up arrogant mentality is that??? It's the same type of shit as geocentric theory.

i grew up in a catholic background also, altho i'm not a technical catholic anymore. what i was tought tho that being created in gods image means that we were created to be concious of our existance and think and have the ability to love which is what god is (according to catholic theology). the reason we have imprefections is because of free will and our fall which is supposed to be explained by the story of adam and eve

quote:

Originally posted by montie i grew up in a catholic background also, altho i'm not a technical catholic anymore. what i was tought tho that being created in gods image means that we were created to be concious of our existance and think and have the ability to love which is what god is (according to catholic theology). the reason we have imprefections is because of free will and our fall which is supposed to be explained by the story of adam and eve

Ah I see ... so we are the only sentient beings in this universe that are capable of being conscious of our existence (not directed at you). I love how organized religion works, we are God's creation yet we are God's "special" creation. Modeled from the supreme being "him"self, therefore differentiating us from each and every one of God's less than "special" creations. One would hope God would be slightly more egalitarian right? Well what can I say ... humans are real peices of work.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow The church has a long history of persecuting scientists and attacking their findings.

Very true, I believe some were even executed for their findings/beliefs. This stopped many scientists from studying certain areas during those periods. Which in turn was a bad thing IMO, we might have the answers to many things that are not yet proven today had those scientists been allowed to research anything.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: God and Evolution..

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow ps I just remembered some funny phrase back in college that someone has lost an argument when the envoke either god or hitler to prove their point.

Even when the argument is about God or Hitler?


Oh and about that montie, I have a lot of questions about the story of Adam and Eve as well. Among them:
- Why would Adam want a companion, when he was technically a hermaphrodite and had no concept of man or woman?
- Why would God create Eve from Adam's rib, when he was an all-powerful being that could have created her instantly from dust?
- Having given Adam and Eve the gift of Free Will, what was the purpose of making that tree? Simply to prove that they truly did have Free Will? If so, why the need for extravagance, why not just pick an ordinary "placebo" apple tree and watch the results?
- How could Adam and Eve have understood that it would be wrong to disobey God's orders, prior to them having any knowledge of what right or wrong was? Following that, how could God have logically expected them to obey those orders?
- According to the story, Adam and Eve hide their privates in fig leaves after discovering right and wrong. Considering that they were the only two humans on the planet and that clothes hadn't been invented yet, how was their nakedness shameful?
- Where was the Garden of Eden - surely we must have some vague info on its geographical location?
- Doesn't an eternity of damnation for all humanity seem a bit harsh when they didn't understand the rule they were breaking? How can God call himself forgiving under these circumstances?
- Through what medium did God communicate with Adam and Eve?
- Why should we be forever grateful to a God that has punished us for all eternity because of the mistakes our 50,000-year-old ancestors made?

Kewlness got it right, I am Christian, i Beleive that there is a God, and not because i chose to beleive it but because i had no choice, its just so glaringly obvious. When it comes down to it, when you can pray and get answer to those prayers moments later, things that may have happened naturally but the chances are miniscule.

Also it is fair to say that there is more evidence of the life and deity of Jesus Christ than there is of the Geco-Persian war, which any classical historian would accept without a trace of disbeleif. Look at the chance of all 48 or so prophecies in the old testament happening (of which there are copies dating from before the life of Christ) One Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion to one, and that is not a made up statistic, that is an actual mathematical probablity. If that does not prove the Deity of Jesus Christ and therefore the the existance of a God then i don't now what does. For further reading se Lee Strobel - The Case For Christ.

I admit that i don't beleive in creation, i see it more that God created the universe and set things in motion, he didn't create everything from nothing, he may have created some things from other things (evolution) but science cannot prove anything except how a few of these changes worked. I mean scientists can see individual atom but they cannot even contemplate what god can see (he can count every hair on everyones head in an instant if He actually felt it worthwhile). The Cross is a brilliant example, He set things in motion and allowed it to pan out. It wasn't as if He wasn't interfering at all but He does give people the choice. The problem with that if you know the truth then you can only make one choice.

I mean my life was so superficial before i discovered God, i may have felt happy and full on worldly things but really your life means nothing and you begin to wonder what it all means. The problem here is if you go down the path of the nihilist or athiest then its just a slippery path into utter depression.

Edit/
Diginut- you can go on complaining about things like the creation but really thats all just metaphorical and all but most die hard Christian faiths are now succumbed to that. Not that that is a bad thing at all, we just have a better understanding of the way God works. The creation details the fall, something i don't beleive actually happened because i think humans will always be flawed. Picking holes in bible verses has always been the way of the athiest but in the end it doesn't pay because there is so much overwhelming and proven truth in the bible that all your doing is narrowing your vision.

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