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-- a kernkraft 400 thread
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quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 and a classic is a tune that represents a time in the evolution of trance that made a statement in the scene....so Airwave is by far a Classic

Airwave is just another anthem. It's "wall-to-wall" sound can be found in earlier tracks like El Nino. It didn't evolve or introduce anything. It's production values are trite and derivative, and it's exuberance is revolting.

When I first heard it, I was like okay, I get it already, trance song. Fuck off. I don't need you to tell me when to dance, when to cheer, and when to raise my arms in the air in ecstatic bliss. I'm quite capable of listening to the changes and doing that myself. Please stop hitting me over the head with your insipid faux-grandeur.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Airwave is just another anthem. It's "wall-to-wall" sound can be found in earlier tracks like El Nino. It didn't evolve or introduce anything. It's production values are trite and derivative, and it's exuberance is revolting. When I first heard it, I was like okay, I get it already, trance song. Fuck off. I don't need you to tell me when to dance, when to cheer, and when to raise my arms in the air in ecstatic bliss. I'm quite capable of listening to the changes and doing that myself. Please stop hitting me over the head with your insipid faux-grandeur.

LOL....i think u read entirely too much into it....

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur When I first heard it, I was like okay, I get it already, trance song. Fuck off. I don't need you to tell me when to dance, when to cheer, and when to raise my arms in the air in ecstatic bliss. I'm quite capable of listening to the changes and doing that myself. Please stop hitting me over the head with your insipid faux-grandeur.

one question: are goa / psy your favorite genres?

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur okay, done. Now what do I do?

tell me where

well.. in my opinion uplifting, epic and 'anthem trance' like Ishkur says are pretty much the same thing. I only thought of epic trance as tunes a little bit more linked to classical music, like Ferry's mix of Adagio for Strings or Gouryella's Ligaya, but dunno if that's totally correct.

so you pretty much think that all of uplifting/epic/anthem is shit. well that's an opinion. but what got people here more pissed off is the division between 'epic' and 'not trance'. it'd make a little bit more sense if they were all in the same category, and it'd make a lot more sense if those tracks swapped categories. Everyone here recognises Alice Deejay and Ian van Dahl as cheesy crap while System F and Rank 1 would be epic trance. You may think of them all as the same bunch of crap but dividing them this way may give the idea that Alice Deejay is better than System F. Got it?

perhaps we're getting a little bit too anal about subgenre details, but that way any stupid newbie that reads the guide can become pretty confused

about 'fucking good trance', well, that depends on your tastes. 1995 trance doesn't exist anymore, it evolved to several subgenres, being the genre you hate the most popular. i personally enjoy progressive trance with a bit of a dark side, like

Musix - Turn the Page
The Gift - Love Angel (M.I.K.E Remix) -> I see you qualified the main mix as 'really bad', well I like it as well but this is completely different
Planisphere - NYE

not trying to change anyone's tastes..

to tiesto14: i'd say voyage is a hybrid between 'our' anthem trance and psy

Re: Re: a kernkraft 400 thread

quote:

Originally posted by Zenchowdah ok *deep breath* STUPID FUGGITY-ASS FUCKIN FUCKY **** ASS SLAPPER BITCH SHIZZIN-FIZZIN-FAZZER-NIZZIT ZOMBIE NATION SUCKS AND IS ALSO AN EXPONENTIAL FORM OF THE AFOREMENTIONED!! *pantpantpant* bitch.

Word.

ZOMBIE NATION IS NOT A GOOD TUNE!
IT FUCKING SUCKS!

I always hated that bullshit!

quote:

Originally posted by whiskers one question: are goa / psy your favorite genres?

Actually no. I like *some* goa. But I'm extremely picky and can't accurately describe what I particularly like or dislike about it. I just know what I like when I hear it. It might have something to do with the fact that I absolutely despise the culture that goes with it. I'd probably be into psy more if it didn't exist. Goa would be a great genre if it weren't for all the fucking hippies.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant tell me where

ohhhhh...it's around here, somewhere. You're a big boy, I'm sure you can find it.

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Originally posted by paranoik0 so you pretty much think that all of uplifting/epic/anthem is shit. well that's an opinion. but what got people here more pissed off is the division between 'epic' and 'not trance'. it'd make a little bit more sense if they were all in the same category, and it'd make a lot more sense if those tracks swapped categories.

In actual fact, I see no discrepancy either. Anthem is anthem is anthem to me. I dislike how you people categorize an anthem based on how it makes you feel ie: if its floaty and light-hearted you'll call it Emotional Trance or Angelic Trance...and then if it's hard and pulsing you'd call it Power Trance or whatever....the number of names you people come up with to describe the mood a track puts you in is silly, to say the least.

But there's a reason I put those 3 genres there. Anthem Trance is anything that fits the breakdown-build-anthem formula. The one producer who's probably exploited the Anthem cookie cutter template the most is Transa. Every song is exactly the same, except for the chorus fanfare everyone is waiting for. The way I have categorized it, it's the (relatively) harder and more driving side of the mold.

Epic Trance is the same as Anthem Trance, and to nitpick the difference between the two is not really necessary, but there's a conscientious reason why I did it. Epic Trance means to me Anthem Trance that has gotten way worse (I guess your "uplifting", so to speak). At least Anthem Trance was somewhat tolerable, if predictable. Epic is just gagging. It is the floaty and angelic side of the mold. From a technical side of things, Epic employs 16th notes in its cutesy melodies, and vocals. Not just any vocals, but really BAD vocals. Hence why I included Alice Deejay and Ian van Dahl there. That represents the worst of the worst of Epic Trance. I should put DJ Sammy there too, but I found a much more deserving fate for him: Epic House.

"NOT Trance", as I cheekily call it, is more Anthem than Epic, and it represents the worst of the worst. Essentially its any track trying to recreate Out of the Blue without pretending to know that it's ripping it off. I hate it when there's a new musical sound that's discovered, and everybody dotes on it like that. They're just capitalizing on the trend for a quick buck, and you fools are falling for it.

Also, I really hate breakdowns. Why are they even there? A lot of tracks I really like up until the breakdown. Gouryella is a perfect example. What a kickass, awesome track up until 2:45 in the song. Everything after that is ruined by an unnecessarily long breakdown, and a bloated, shmaltzy anthem. Damn it, Ferry!!! Why did you have to go and ruin a good trance track like that?

quote:

Everyone here recognises Alice Deejay and Ian van Dahl as cheesy crap while System F and Rank 1 would be epic trance. You may think of them all as the same bunch of crap but dividing them this way may give the idea that Alice Deejay is better than System F. Got it?

Well, see, this is where we differ. To me, they're ALL cheesy crap. In fact, I would say that System F/Rank 1 are cheesies. I can stomach Alice Deejay before Rank 1. At least Better Off Alone doesn't have me impatiently tapping my foot and checking my watch all the time (get on with it already!!! It's been two bloody minutes! Where the fuck is the beat and the lead synth!??!?).

quote:

perhaps we're getting a little bit too anal about subgenre details, but that way any stupid newbie that reads the guide can become pretty confused

Well well well. You're afraid that newbies might become corrupted by the strong opinions of my guide? Well how do you think I feel? Your chees-o-matic trance factory scene has been devouring newbies for 5 years, and now there's no good trance anymore. Thanks a lot.

quote:

not trying to change anyone's tastes..

Not that anyone left has any taste worth changing.

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Originally posted by Ishkur Well, see, this is where we differ. To me, they're ALL cheesy crap.

I just didn't understand one thing: if they're all the same cheesy crap, why divide in two categories?

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Goa would be a great genre if it weren't for all the fucking hippies.

rap would also be a great genre if it wasn't for all the black people, right?

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Originally posted by whiskers rap would also be a great genre if it wasn't for all the black people, right?

No...if it weren't for all the wankstas.

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Originally posted by paranoik0 I just didn't understand one thing: if they're all the same cheesy crap, why divide in two categories?

to differentiate the cheesy crap that's pompous and haughty from the cheesy crap that's just plain bad.

quote:

Originally posted by whiskers rap would also be a great genre if it wasn't for all the black people, right?

No, rap would be a great genre if it weren't for all the posturing, self-righteousnous, and attitude.

Besides, you're trying to compare race to the idealistic epithets of a subcultural social tribe. Don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur No, rap would be a great genre if it weren't for all the posturing, self-righteousnous, and attitude. Besides, you're trying to compare race to the idealistic epithets of a subcultural social tribe. Don't.

you sound smart, but would you care to explain in PLAIN ENGLISH, what do hippies have to do with goa being a bad genre?

I think alot of people should listen to what Ishkur says.

He's not here to bash taste...he's just telling it how it is.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Sunburn I think alot of people should listen to what Ishkur says. He's not here to bash taste...he's just telling it how it is.

and i think a lot of people should have their own opinions

quote:

Originally posted by Icesotope

word, i thought of that a while ago, but i've been dragged into a little flame war and kinda hijacked the thread myself

while we're at it,

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir while we're at it,

thank you, BIZNITCH

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Also, I really hate breakdowns. Why are they even there? A lot of tracks I really like up until the breakdown. Gouryella is a perfect example. What a kickass, awesome track up until 2:45 in the song. Everything after that is ruined by an unnecessarily long breakdown, and a bloated, shmaltzy anthem. Damn it, Ferry!!! Why did you have to go and ruin a good trance track like that?

As I've said before, I agree with a lot of your philosophy on edm. However, this quote right here shows a rationale for your lack of comprehensive understanding on the whole epic/anthem fiasco. What I'm talking about is sociocultural values that people utilize when appreciating music. Gouryella-Gouryella is the perfect example because it epitomizes what this music movement was all about when it gained a global appeal and how its bastardization has gotten us to where we are today. You see, European trance stands out in the edm world for being based on strict notions of structure and tonality. These restricting concepts are very Western, and unlike most edm and pop music from contemporary times,it also causes the music to lack any funk or soul. The music is driven by a linear force, as opposed to the circular structure of other kinds of music from our days. You might not appreciate the structure of 8-16-32 whatever buildup breakdown etc. in Gouryella because it is indeed kind of reactionary and very limiting, but the fact is that without the breakdown Gouryella is not Gouryella, which leads me to talk about these cultural values.

Have you ever been to Holland? Gouryella smells, tastes and looks Dutch in every possible way. The melody, the harmonic pattern, the structure, the bassline, the buildup, the breakdown: All the components of the track are based on a Dutch ethos in the context of globalization and European integration. I could bet my life that a track like this would had never been made in a place like Kansas City or Vancouver or Rio de Janeiro. I could really go into detail explaining how the process that led to what you now call epic or anthem or whatever is based on very Dutch ideals adapted from what they imported from Europe and the world (the universal mvt. spawned by Detroit-Chicago-acid house-UK's second summer of love-german trance-the goa influence etc). You can even go back to colonial history and study how the Dutch preferred to import foreign cultures and incorporate universalist ideals into their very unique culture than to export a pure form of their own to the countries that they colonized.The way in which the Dutch have historically imported cultural elements and applied their pragmatic idealism along with their 'unfunky' northern European gouda nature(which also gives us a nice analogy of trance with the best cheese in the world) resulted in a process of transculturation that gave us Dutch trance.


I'm a classically trained musician, and I always enjoy analyzing the technicalities within the structure of music. I never seriously listened to anything but classical music up until 1998 when I accidentally discovered Dutch trance, even if I had been to many raves with music that I couldn't really relate to. I always hated formulaic music, I never understood rock or pop. But when I heard Magik 1 it simply struck me as the most revolutionary thing since western art music split up into minimalism and serialism in the 60s. I loved how these producers were working within structure, which just seemed so natural to me as it was dance music. This is what gavottes, guigues, minuets and sarabandes were in 18th century France and Germany and what the Waltz was in 19th century Austria. Strictly structured European dance music that borrowed many many elements from high Western art and whose massive popularity led to an eventual conflict between the pretentious and the pop elements, resulting in its subsequent bastardization. The greatest common factor in this kind of music such as the melody and its harmonic backup are very minimal and arranged through a process that is subtle in its linear complexity. Gouryella-Gouryella is a mindblowing piece of briliiantly constructed music as an artform, most of the stuff that Ferry Corsten plays nowadays is not (who in my opinion does not deserve as much credit for Gouryella as Tiesto does, but that's just my personal prejudice).

German/UK/Belgian trance are based on similar overlapping and contrasting ideals, but i'd rather not delve into that right now since it's not really relevant.

quote:

Well, see, this is where we differ. To me, they're ALL cheesy crap. In fact, I would say that System F/Rank 1 are cheesies. I can stomach Alice Deejay before Rank 1. At least Better Off Alone doesn't have me impatiently tapping my foot and checking my watch all the time (get on with it already!!! It's been two bloody minutes! Where the fuck is the beat and the lead synth!??!?).

I like a tastefully done breakdown like the one in Gouryella because it gives the music an extra edge in its linear development. I don't mind waiting for it because it is done with class and significant artistic value. Since my main concern is with music and not dancing, I don't have a problem with it taking so long. Attention span in music appreciation is another issue though. I do hate breakdowns that are self-gratifying and pompous like Out of the Blue or the horrid Ferry Corsten remix of Barber's Adagio. Well-done breakdowns can add an extra incentive because they can successfully induce the trance sensation in the dancefloor. This is another musical element that is derived from a Western notion: The use of deceptive cadences and the creation of harmonic and rhythmic tension with precise timing is what made Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms et. al. so amazing. This is the principal factor that makes good trance (production and especially dj-wise) so great in my books: the intelligent use of timing within that structure.

Man i love tranceaddict but some people here have to come down off of their high horses. Alot of people her talk shit soooo bad. Classics are and will always be personal to the individual. Since for most people thier "classics" remind them of their first parties, first trance track that they absolutely fell in love with.

for the record.... for and angel is a classic...


by your defenition, Ishkur, no trance should be classic, since electronic music is only about 20 years old. thats barely enough time for a car to be considered a classic. All it takes for a classic track to be formed is for one person to get so drawn into the track that they are hooked..... that special technique, synth, sample or whatever it may be.


actually im listning to a track right now that im going to hereby deem one of my classics. mike dragon - infinity 2001 (fridge vs vectrex mix)
the bagpipes are a great idea....


Music isnt a science, its an art form, no one on here is almighty enough to say that anyting is horrible, cheesy, crappy and such. thats their opinion, and it doesnt matter how long you have listened to trance, or how many music degrees you have, or how long you have been spinning, its still just an opinion. and is no better than mine or anyone elses.

So if you think your smarter than everyone here music wise, keep it too yourself. it doesnt benefit anyone here. i get really sick of flame wars as it ruis the whole idea of mesage boards and just turns them into a waste of time.

o and for the record, yale trance, made some amazing points there. I listen to alot of classical music and thats part of hte reason i started listening to trance.........

Great read here. Obviously I cant fully relate to all points made ( I have zero musical theory knowledge) but I kinda "sense" what you're talking about Creativity within a clear formula/frame?

okay, here we go. Finally some substance:

quote:

Originally posted by YaleTrance However, this quote right here shows a rationale for your lack of comprehensive understanding on the whole epic/anthem fiasco. What I'm talking about is sociocultural values that people utilize when appreciating music.

As evidenced in this thread, indeed. But I never once talked about the sociocultural attachments to the music. I'm talking about judging the music on its own worth, merit, and intent. It's implications on the scenes and peoples who revel in it is unnecessary and superfluous here. Perhaps in another thread.

quote:

Have you ever been to Holland? Gouryella smells, tastes and looks Dutch in every possible way.

This is irrelevant. Where the track comes from does not lend any credence to its affirmation in any way whatsoever. Though now that you talk about it, I never noticed that before........that the most gaudy, derivative trance anthems all come from Holland. heh. Well I'll be damned. That begs the hypothetical scenario: would the trance music scene be better off if we just got up and pushed the entire country into the sea?

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I could bet my life that a track like this would had never been made in a place like Kansas City or Vancouver or Rio de Janeiro.

Bullshit. I could write a COMPUTER PROGRAM that could churn out dutch trance anthems and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Pick your preset samplebanks for rhythm and percussion, key out your lead synth, randomize values for the anthem, apply filters, and let the sequencer take care of the rest. Voila: insta-anthem.

quote:

You can even go back to colonial history and study how the Dutch preferred to import foreign cultures and incorporate universalist ideals into their very unique culture than to export a pure form of their own to the countries that they colonized.

Sure, but don't chalk that up to some kind of highly-evolved, altruistic moral code. The Dutch tried to export their culture--several times, in fact. But the truth is they had not the physical might to be imperialists like the British, French and Spaniards did and so, being largely controlled by their merchant classes, relegated themselves to trading and commerce instead. That foreign cultures were brought home and assimilated was a fancy byproduct, never a culprit of their expansionism.

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I always hated formulaic music

Then what are you doing listening to dutch trance?

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I loved how these producers were working within structure, which just seemed so natural to me as it was dance music.

Parnassian, huh? Guess what: they were wrong. They were just too stupid to realize it.

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The greatest common factor in this kind of music such as the melody and its harmonic backup are very minimal and arranged through a process that is subtle in its linear complexity.

Ahh yes, the ole "it's complicated because it's simple" argument. Trying to intellectualize simple concepts for acceptance by intelligentsia. Nice try. Looks good on paper, though. I have a more practical idea why this music exists: it makes lots of money. And it makes a lot of money because it is low-brow, easily-understood, deeply resonating music that caters to the lowest common denominator of trance consumers, they being the people who like to be amused by shiny, colourful things. It is not meant to be a work of art; by its very nature it is cheaply-produced pulp trance, exploiting a gimmick invented in 1996 that is well past its usefulness.

quote:

Gouryella-Gouryella is a mindblowing piece of briliiantly constructed music as an artform

ha ha ha ha ha.

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I like a tastefully done breakdown like the one in Gouryella because it gives the music an extra edge in its linear development.

no it doesn't. In fact, it does the exact opposite: it kills the mood of the entire track

quote:

I don't mind waiting for it because it is done with class and significant artistic value.

There is nothing classy or artistic about epic trance. Something that has artistic value would have to be multi-dimensional, unique, and have an almost raw, genuine sensibility to it. By contrast, epic trance is none of these things. It is drab, one-dimensional, trite and, at times, insulting our intelligence. Its problem is that it tries way too hard to appear sincere and genuine, but falls short of the mark. In effect, it is lying to us. It is fostering illusions about what it really is. It is fake. Like a plastic piece of shit watch trying to convince us it's a Rolex.

It is the musical equivalent of using big, obfuscating words in an effort to sound intelligent, but everybody knows you're just spouting bullshit.


(and with that said, I am done here. sorry for the threadjack)

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