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-- America is really starting to piss me off
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YEah I am speaking about countries that the US hasn;t gone in and bombed the shit out of .. Everyone knows what Canada does in it's humanitarian casues. And why does the UN say that Canada is the best counrty in the world to LIve in and in fact many people desire to go to Canada too...But this isn;t about Canada ...you wanna start picking on Canada go ahead.

YEah I am speaking about countries that the US hasn;t gone in and bombed the shit out of .. Everyone knows what Canada does in it's humanitarian casues. And why does the UN say that Canada is the best counrty in the world to LIve in and in fact many people desire to go to Canada too...But this isn;t about Canada ...you wanna start picking on Canada go ahead.

And helping countries that are at war that the US help create the first place? The world is supppose to pay for Iraq when it when in and started a war that the majority of the world didn;t want.

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Originally posted by 2hardcore4u YEah I am speaking about countries that the US hasn;t gone in and bombed the shit out of .. Everyone knows what Canada does in it's humanitarian casues. And why does the UN say that Canada is the best counrty in the world to LIve in and in fact many people desire to go to Canada too...But this isn;t about Canada ...you wanna start picking on Canada go ahead.

I'm not picking on Canada. I am picking on the childish way you are presenting your side of this debate.

When you sit here and complain about how "violent" America is, I want you to also contemplate, where would the world be if America hadn't stepped in? In greater ruins than you're predicting it to end up to be.

Re: There is always a comeback for everything

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Originally posted by 2hardcore4u You know I Did some thinking and I didi get a little out of hand ...but you arguements still aren't very convincing. The fact is you you should be setting a better example on the world stage and you are not.. And you haven;t been for quite sometime and that there is trend here and it's deeply rooted in your society.And a major part of the world has a problem with the way you conduct business. You think America has to protect the world and through war! When will people change>?? never prolly and I fear that is going to be the end of us. You not everyone in the world wants what america wants. And as far as gettting kicked off ..it'll do me some good...my g/f woke up to the sound of tying at 4 am this morning and freaked on me haha

I'm sorry to break it to you ... but business is conducted the same all across the world. From the time of colonial exploitation, to vassal states, to globalization, the nature of business have retained the same basic components.

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And yes Occridder I know most of those scandals but they don;t happen in the frequency they do in America.

Sigh ... instead of paying attention to the frequency or prominence that each scandal is given by the media, why don't you look at the actual AMOUNT of money that is defrauded to consumers or the damage rendered upon that particular market. Each is in the BILLIONS.

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Also you would walk around indonesia and the middle east with an american flag on your backpac?? Go ahead and try it.....I highly doubt you would....Ever been there??????? Please Occrider?? I also wanna know?? How much travelling have you done? ?How much real life experience have you had besides the piles of information and quotes here and quotes there and you should look at this......????? Like I said there is always a source for an argument and you said it yourself. Most people liek to sit back and just say things without experiencing things first hand and really only have knowledge from the media.

Oh my ... I'm speechless again. Where, where, where to begin? Ok, well AS IF the number of countries you visited/lived in were some kind of barometer of intelligence or understanding/comprehension of world events (and I cannot help but take smug satisfaction in you mentioning indonesia) ... but since you insist, I shall indulge you with my life story:

I was born in Hong Kong and lived there for 2 years.
I lived in Jakarta, Indonesia for 4 years.
I lived in Brussels, Belgium for 4 years.
I lived in Vienna, Austria for 3 years.

During my tenure overseas I've visited every single West European country (with the exception of Scandanavia/Ireland/Portugal), and I've been to most Eastern European countries (Budapest has/had a duncan donuts, Bucharest has/had a K-mart, Nuremburg is just plain awesome with an American PX, I love that bridge in Prague, and in fuckin Warsaw the burger king gave me food poisoning), and perhaps to Drug Tito's amusement we even vacationed on a Croatian island once (don't remember the name of the island ... I only vaguely remember passing through Split).

Next year will be the first year that I've spent more time in my life in the United States than I have outside of it. Therefore, according to your standards of intelligence, I guess I've become too advanced for my physical form and have evolved into pure energy . Somebody please give me a cookie now to feed my vast and fully justified ego.

Re: Re: There is always a comeback for everything

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Originally posted by occrider Somebody please give me a cookie now to feed my vast and fully justified ego.

*hands over a cookie*

I'm sorry that you got food poisoning in Warsaw. I'll cook you a real Polish meal instead.

.

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Next year will be the first year that I've spent more time in my life in the United States than I have outside of it. Therefore, according to your standards of intelligence, I guess I've become too advanced for my physical form and have evolved into pure energy . Somebody please give me a cookie now to feed my vast and fully justified ego.

I never said called you stupid....but you an arrogant in the way you speak and how you speak your issues. becasue the fact is alot of people don't like america for good reason.I could keep coming back with valid arguements like how each of those companies defrauded customers of billions of dollars..well bre-ex didn't but that isn't the point here becasue it was still corporate greed right. And besided I got a littl eheated in some of the stuff I said in here which was wrong of me becasue I don;t go around telling americans that they are messed up. I have alot of american friends too actually. But they say there are some deep rooted problems in their country which I'm sure you'll agree.

The reason why I posted in this forum is becasue I can vent myself and that maybe some americans will star to realize that alot of people have problems with the America. This however is not putting up a good image as a canadian.

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Originally posted by 2hardcore4u . I never said called you stupid....but you an arrogant in the way you speak and how you speak your issues. becasue the fact is alot of people don't like america for good reason.I could keep coming back with valid arguements like how each of those companies defrauded customers of billions of dollars..well bre-ex didn't but that isn't the point here becasue it was still corporate greed right. And besided I got a littl eheated in some of the stuff I said in here which was wrong of me becasue I don;t go around telling americans that they are messed up. I have alot of american friends too actually. But they say there are some deep rooted problems in their country which I'm sure you'll agree. The reason why I posted in this forum is becasue I can vent myself and that maybe some americans will star to realize that alot of people have problems with the America. This however is not putting up a good image as a canadian.

I shall make the very rare occassion of analyzing your arguments, very specifically with malice in mind, since you choose to persist with your antagonistic, confrontational, and insulting posts ...

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I never said called you stupid

No you never did, however, you did equate intelligence/understanding with how "wordly" a person is based upon the sheer number of places they have visited in their lifetime. I refer to your following statements:

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I will say one more thing that if you haven;t travelled and experienced first hand what the world truly is like outside your safe daily lives in the western world then you need to do so becasue it will change forever how you think about this world. My views on this world are immensely different than they were 2 years ago..before I travelled and saw first hand what is really going on in the world and how most people think besides america . . . And yes Occridder I know most of those scandals but they don;t happen in the frequency they do in America. Also you would walk around indonesia and the middle east with an american flag on your backpac?? Go ahead and try it.....I highly doubt you would....Ever been there??????? . . . Please Occrider?? I also wanna know?? How much travelling have you done? ?How much real life experience have you had besides the piles of information and quotes here and quotes there and you should look at this......????? Like I said there is always a source for an argument and you said it yourself. Most people liek to sit back and just say things without experiencing things first hand and really only have knowledge from the media. . . . Yeah yeah keep it coming ... a country or two???? ahhahah quite a few more than that!!! Your time is coming america! . . . And I have access to new all over the world . I read media all over the world actually.....not just the ones that are owned by a few elite.....and Actually I don;t think I am powerful...it's america that thinks it is and should be the world police force "Sugar!" By the way it's 48 countries I have been too on 6 continents

Hence considering your prioritization on the value of travel in intelligence/understanding, I emphaisized my super human intelligence (in a mocking manner) in light of my travel experiences.

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but you an arrogant in the way you speak and how you speak your issues.

Nope, this is the first you called me arrogant ... This I do not deny. I utilize a lot of sarcasm, wit (well I like to think so), doubt, and confrontational criticism in my arguments to establish my case, but I believe it's very rare that I actually resort to true arrogance. In cases such as this, however, I have no qualms about doing so as evidenced by my continuous use of blunt and unrelenting mockery which was provoked by your less than cordial pm. However, while we're on the topic of arrogance, let us paint a pretty picture of the man named 2hardcore4u:

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americans never listen to anyone except themselves ... I pride msyelf on being a Canadian ... America sucks and most of them have their heads up their asses ...Your time will come America! ... never have I been more proud to be a Canadian. I have met more asshole americans than anyone...something has to change down there... Why can't you just admist your country sucks! It's a breading ground for assholes ... I know it's natural to defend your country but admist you have a lot of problems that have to be changed. It's not just the governent either. It's tha attitude of the people. There is a reason there are sweeping generalizations because the it's the way the majority of you act. That is a problem ... The US prompotes corporate greed! ... ....I'd be scared to reduce the size of my military becasue goodness knows how many countries in the world wanna piece of you ... I'm proud that we have that sense of understanding in Canada. There is a reason why Canada is not is not picked on ... Our goverment is doing alot better than yours! . . . Actually canada lets in the most foriegn immigrants per capita in the world and if You don;t know what Canada does for foriegn aid and peace keeping well then you don;t know anything . . . Everyone knows what Canada does in it's humanitarian casues. And why does the UN say that Canada is the best counrty in the world to LIve in <occrider: check that UN development report you arrogant bastard! It's NORWAY!> and in fact many people desire to go to Canada too...But this isn;t about Canada <occrider: that's news to me> ...you wanna start picking on Canada go ahead.<occrider: I would never be so PRESUMPTUOUS to do so in the first place! >

Ok well that's all I have to say about arrogance ... yes that was very goebbel-esque of me

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I could keep coming back with valid arguements like how each of those companies defrauded customers of billions of dollars..well bre-ex didn't but that isn't the point here becasue it was still corporate greed right.

Huh? The point is, is that there are plenty of examples of Non-American companies defrauding investors of billions of dollars elsewhere ... NOT JUST IN CANADA as the world appears to revolve around.

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And besided I got a littl eheated in some of the stuff I said in here which was wrong of me becasue I don;t go around telling americans that they are messed up. I have alot of american friends too actually. But they say there are some deep rooted problems in their country which I'm sure you'll agree.

Of course there are problems in America that need to be fixed ... just as there are problems in the rest of the world that need to be fixed. If this had been your original argument (or even if your original statment had been more neutral) nobody would have complained.

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The reason why I posted in this forum is becasue I can vent myself and that maybe some americans will star to realize that alot of people have problems with the America.

You see, the problem is, is that most people who frequent this forum are INTELLIGENT people interested in INTELLIGENT discourse. By spouting your rediculous rhetoric you alienate the very people you attempt to attract to your cause. Therefore you see rediculous instances of people like Renegade (those who are extremely discontent with american foreign policy) who are actually going against your case because it is SO unfounded, SO unsupported, and SO inconceivable that you repel people.

quote:

This however is not putting up a good image as a canadian.

No comment.




I'm saving this thread . I put a lot of time into it.

It's hard to see how this could be anything but a troll topic.

Vague claims that America is "bad" backed up by little or no facts other than obscure references to one's personal experiences isn't a very good starting point for a political discussion.

If you have specific greivances backed up by empirical evidence, then perhaps a discourse on the matter would be possible. There are plenty of things I think are wrong with America. However, broad claims such as "most Americans have their heads up their asses", (be that as it may) offers little insight into the nature of the problem at hand, how it might be solved, etc...

To those interested in truth rather than merely in rhetoric, I can't see what this topic has to offer.

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Originally posted by anuneventrade You highly amuse me. You say you teach, and yet you make these moronic claims that make no one do anything else other than laugh.

i take pity on the students that 2hardcore4u is teaching if they are exposed to the same level of thought he expresses here.

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Originally posted by Izzy i take pity on the students that 2hardcore4u is teaching if they are exposed to the same level of thought he expresses here.

Regrettably it wouldn't surprise me. I was forced to take an introductory course in Sociology to fulfill a requirement at one point, and in order to pass the class you essentially had to pretend to be a devout Marxist...

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Originally posted by Arbiter Regrettably it wouldn't surprise me. I was forced to take an introductory course in Sociology to fulfill a requirement at one point, and in order to pass the class you essentially had to pretend to be a devout Marxist...

oh, the humanity!
i'm glad you made it out of there alright

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Originally posted by Arbiter Regrettably it wouldn't surprise me. I was forced to take an introductory course in Sociology to fulfill a requirement at one point, and in order to pass the class you essentially had to pretend to be a devout Marxist...

Marxist ... how horrid . Was it at least taught with intelligence?

Oh well off to bed.

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Originally posted by occrider Was it at least taught with intelligence?

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid. At first I tried to pose questions that would challenge the professor's assumptions, but since my questions were always dismissed quickly with a vague generality and the professor was clearly annoyed by my confrontational queries, I quickly gave up and simply regurgitated what was expected.

A pretty good example would be that if I were to ask:

"Upon what basis do you formulate the claim that everyone should have equal access to resources in a society?"

I could expect a response along the lines of:

"When there's an inequality in society, it's a strong indicator of unfair treatment to certain social groups."

To make matters worse, the professor was also a feminist. It's the only class I've ever taken where I felt like I was losing rather than gaining intelligence by attending.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter It's hard to see how this could be anything but a troll topic. Vague claims that America is "bad" backed up by little or no facts other than obscure references to one's personal experiences isn't a very good starting point for a political discussion. If you have specific greivances backed up by empirical evidence, then perhaps a discourse on the matter would be possible. There are plenty of things I think are wrong with America. However, broad claims such as "most Americans have their heads up their asses", (be that as it may) offers little insight into the nature of the problem at hand, how it might be solved, etc... To those interested in truth rather than merely in rhetoric, I can't see what this topic has to offer.

You are right ....this is a troll topic and it was meant to be one and vauge refrences????? I have put forward quite afew vaild points that some of my opponents have aggreed with. The reason why this is a troll topic is becasue there is no solution ? What are you going to about the problems in the states. The rich control the policticans and the "americans that have their heads up there asses"" are influenced by powerful lobby groups. So yes I am saying just that becasue I think it has gottn to the point that nothing is being done and it is getting worse and to having a starting point to some sort of revelotion you have to have a grassroots anger of some sort.which is happening by the way.....

Where is the empirical eveidence that the US has truly had a good influence with their foriegn policies? I know you are going to come up with something....You know guys you remind of that Blond hair guy in Good Will Hunting...the one that comes across like he knows a whole lot..which he may but in the real world it means nothing because like I keep saying America is the world bully! People are pissed and that's all there is too it!

I don't hate USA, actually i think it's a great country so don't get me wrong. But there is A LOT of downsides in US that i hate and in a way i can agree with 2hardcore4u. Seriously there cannot be any other rich country in this world that care so little about their poor population and there is no other well developed country in this world where companies has such great power, nor do i know any western country in this world that is so much controlled by money.

I do also think that there is hard to find any other country where its people know so little about the rest of the world and its history. Guess to many americans shouldn't even be able to point out where in the world iraq is. I also guess that too few americans has ever been outside the USA, which also contribute to the people's stupidness when it comes to world politics / ignorance of other people.

One more thing that annoy me (amongst many other people) is that you don't seem to see a solution to problems without using violence, all you wars, death penalty etc.

You can't blame the people for all this though. IMO there is something basically wrong with the political / school system in the USA.

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Furthermore, simply because American corporate scandals are overly publisized in the western media, don't let that paint you an inaccurate picture of world affairs

OK this one is still bothering me. I'd like to know how you think that there isn't a problem here. I mean if a certain city has a really low murder rate and another city has a high murder rate wouldn't you think there is some sort of rooted problems in that city??? I mean ofcoarse frequency has something to do with it? If one or two people or doing something then it our of the oridnary but when many corporations are screwing people over then I tend to think there is a a bigger problem???

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Sigh ... instead of paying attention to the frequency or prominence that each scandal is given by the media, why don't you look at the actual AMOUNT of money that is defrauded to consumers or the damage rendered upon that particular market. Each is in the BILLIONS.

QUOTE]You can't blame the people for all this though. IMO there is something basically wrong with the political / school system in the USA.[/QUOTE]

Thats is what I say from the start...that there is something wrong with the school and political system such as these quotes:

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Don;t get me wrong I have met some cool americans ....but I have met more asshole americans than anyone...something has to change down there...ther way people are taught to think

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But they control the world with their corporate greed. 10 % of the people in America own 90% of the wealth....90% of the people own 10% of the wealth how is that free..the richer ger richer...it's so messed up it's unbelievable.

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There are some deeply rooted problems in your society

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Originally posted by 2hardcore4u yes I know all about that too.....but you see Russia does something about it's corrupt oil companies> Unlike america keeps them around so they help politicans win elections

The leader of that oil company was giving millions to the opposition party of president Putin. It's widely speculated that his incarceration is a politically motivated act by the Putin government.

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Originally posted by 2hardcore4u yes I know these replies are scttered but I have 10 min breaks inbetween teaching classes

If I were a parent with a student in one of your "classes" I'd pull them out immediately. Please don't tell me you "teach" at the college level?!?

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Originally posted by 2hardcore4u You are right ....this is a troll topic and it was meant to be one

At least you admit it.

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Originally posted by 2hardcore4u OK this one is still bothering me. I'd like to know how you think that there isn't a problem here. I mean if a certain city has a really low murder rate and another city has a high murder rate wouldn't you think there is some sort of rooted problems in that city??? I mean ofcoarse frequency has something to do with it? If one or two people or doing something then it our of the oridnary but when many corporations are screwing people over then I tend to think there is a a bigger problem???

Of course there's a problem there! THat's why there have been a SIGNIFICANT amount of legislative initiatives attempting to increase transparency SINCE the scandals. However, you attempted to insinuate that this is an issue that only occurs in the US:

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Do you see all over the news every few months of another company being investigated for corruption? Or companies like Enron Etc....No because goverments in ohter countries do not infact let companies run amokquite like they do in the US.

To which I replied there are PLENTY of foreign companies LIKE Enron who defrauded the market out of BILLIONS of dollars and provided a healthy list of examples of which, I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find many more. However, for whatever reason, these examples of corporate corruption are not given the same limelight in the media. Actually, I'm guessing part of the reason why enron and worldcom received such intense scrutiny is because they occured at a time of a bust economy, many of the public had to subsist on lean times, and the corporate higher-ups blatantly scammed investors with accounting foolery.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew I do also think that there is hard to find any other country where its people know so little about the rest of the world and its history. Guess to many americans shouldn't even be able to point out where in the world iraq is. I also guess that too few americans has ever been outside the USA, which also contribute to the people's stupidness when it comes to world politics / ignorance of other people.

There's not really an excuse for this, and I'd tend to agree with you that US born citizens tend to fall into this catagory more often than their European counterparts.

However, this is true partially because of the geographic location of the US in relation to the rest of the worlds' countries. For example if I lived in France, it would be easy and cost effective for me to take the train (or a very cheap flight) and visit surrounding countries, thus hopefully infusing me with a cultural understanding of those countires. A person living in the USA has to pay quite a bit more to visit European and Asian countries, thus those without much money to spare are out of luck in terms of gaining understanding of different cultures based on visiting and experiencing those cultures. People in the US unfortunately also tend to recieve less time off for vacation than Europeans, thus further limiting their chances for expansion of their knowledge of other countires and cultures. We all know that being saturated in a different culture is the best way to learn about different cultures instead of reading about them in a textbook. To be honest though in my high school's foreign language program we were often offered the chance to take trips to other countries and experience the languages first hand. The only limiting factor in those cases was of course money.

The few exceptions that I can think of to this rule, are flights to the UK (thanks to British Airways), and flights to areas in the same general region as the US, i.e. Mexico, the Carribean, Central and S. America etc.

The entirety of the United States states and territories (and also Canada) contain a vast array of vacation offerings from beaches to mountains, and some of the most beautiful natural places on the planet i.e. Yellowstone, Yosimite, Hawaii Volcanoes Nat. Park etc etc. Many Americans recognize this, and tend to just vacation within the US for this reason. It also makes for a much more cost-effective vacation than say flying to Europe or East Asia. I'm not the only one who shares this view apparently, because if you've ever been to a US or Canadian national park, you are often in the minority as a predominately English speaking person.

The current US administration however has more or less waged war on the future of these natural places with severe cuts in funding, and essentially planning for these areas to be turned over to big industry (including mining, clear-cutting, and oil extraction). We can't afford another 4 years of this administration as far as the national parks and national forrests etc are concerned.

Alright Im going to do this in as simple a way as possible. I think their are two divisions of issues I contest when it comes to America: Foreign policies and Domestic issues. To make this easier Im just goign to list policies or events, and not go into great detail. If anyone wants clarification of the issues, or to debate them we can get more into detail after.


Foreign policy:

Nicaragua - Contra War
Chile - Pinochets coup
Vietnam - invasion
Cuba - Invasion/embargo
Panama - Noreaga government
Iraq - Invasion/embargo/invasion
Rwanda - inaction/blocking action (?)
Israel - funding
Afghanistan - invasion
Columbia - funding


Domestic issues

Justice system - level of incarceration (especially of minorities)
Patriot act - taking away of fundamental civil rights
Taxation policy - low corporate and high bracket taxes
allowing people the "right to bear arms"
huge growing gap between rich and poor
Illegal ellection of George Bush
Low voter turnout
lack of medicare
problems with the school systems
huge consumption which is potentially destroying the world
lack of controls on how U.S. companies can behave in other countries
large religious influence on government policy (eg not teaching evolution in a couple of states, only teaching abstinence in Texas)
Low minimum wage
Lack of government legislation protecing workers rights
Overfunding of the military, while other departments suffer

I could keep going but I think thats enough for now and I have some reading to do before class.

Ummm ok this thread is getting out of hand. I'm starting to get the sense of a childish "here's why I'm better than you ... " mentality. What is this, a list of grievances over the course of US history? In that case I have problems with the British colony of Canada attacking Washington DC. Also, I'm very upset that Canada did nothing to intervene in Rwanda as well . Or how they didn't base 20 or 30 divisions of troops in West Germany for several decades to thwart Soviet aggression into Europe. So if you would like to intelligentely discuss an issue (and each one of these issues can warrant healthy discussion/debate) then bring up a specific issue in an individual thread rather than giving us a list of why you hate america. So unless you want me to delve into each topic in one massive post...

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Originally posted by occrider Ummm ok this thread is getting out of hand. I'm starting to get the sense of a childish "here's why I'm better than you ... " mentality. What is this, a list of grievances over the course of US history? In that case I have problems with the British colony of Canada attacking Washington DC. Also, I'm very upset that Canada did nothing to intervene in Rwanda as well . Or how they didn't base 20 or 30 divisions of troops in West Germany for several decades to thwart Soviet aggression into Europe. So if you would like to intelligentely discuss an issue (and each one of these issues can warrant healthy discussion/debate) then bring up a specific issue in an individual thread rather than giving us a list of why you hate america. So unless you want me to delve into each topic in one massive post...

Hehe, when do you think this thread was ever in hand? A troll-like accusation thrown out with generalizations and no supporting evidence to show, how could one possibly think this was ever going to get anywhere?

As it's been stated before, there are some here that might even agree with 2hardcore4u, including myself. If you've read any of my previous posts in here, I tend not to think to favorably of this given Administration and the current direction our country is heading on a great many issues, both foreign and domestic. But I will not jump on any given bash Americans bandwagon without supporting empirical evidence. So far I continue to see nothing but mudslinging on your part, so I can't and won't support it.

I imagine your reply will be somewhat of another "see, it's that type of attitude"-type post, whatever the hell that means. I honestly don't want you to confuse me with a gun-totin' flag-wavin' shit-kickin' Patriot. I simply wanted you to give me evidence to support your assertion as to why America is pissing you off. In truth, that's all I care about. That's the design of an intelligent debate - supporting assertions and opinions with evidence. Now granted, you did reply to these questions, but your replies were more generalizations. Furthermore, when evidence was presented to you in regards to other countries and their associative corporate businesses' fallacies, you hand waved those completely away. Finally, as Occ has so graciously pointed out, the notion of you equating intelligence and knowledge to how many countries you've been is, at best, well, unintelligent and quite fallacious. However, I would love to join in that feeble point by saying I've been to 4 other countries other than the U.S. I hope that's good enough for you, I really really really hope so.

Unless you bring some posts, websites, facts, etc. to the table, your original statement is merely an unsupported assertion, regardless of whether or not I actually agree with it.

well the united states is a big country, a third of the world economy blablabla.. so whatever they do it affects the world alot. they'v done alot of cool and really good shit and they'v done some major stupid things and some shit...


in plain english: they are just like any other country

with the exception of being BIG, so that it affects more of the world around it. whats the damn point of making a thread like this? shit.. can't we all just be friends? people like the guy who started this thread should be dumped into outer space

Thread closed due to influx of trolls

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