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-- Islamic morality
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Originally posted by Yoepus ...

great points yoepus, it doesnt take much to see that it is not religion that is the blame for mankind's evil, but rather for the most part it's inate in human behaviour throughout history, be it through government, social or ethinic groups, religious groups, individuals... etc...

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Originally posted by tathi the belief in some god, a deist / pantheist, whatever; is neither positive or negative, organised religion is indeed an insidious facade that has been one of the major causes of pain and suffering throughout history. I'm not blaming all cruelties in the history of mankind on religion, just most, the only thing good that has come from religion is some kick arse art. The major religions today are probably more peaceful now than ever

I couldn't have said it better myself ! Religion TAKEN OUT OF ITS ORIGINAL CONTEXT, brings about the peril of all humankind. It is they, the extremists of all religions whether Jew, Muslim or Christain which create all these religious bigotries and make us turn against each other. I am pretty sure that every religion preaches love thy neighbour and tolerance of another's religious background.

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Since the Church was academia it took upon this role natrually at the time, and life back in the past was much more brutal than it is today so keep that in mind.

yes �The major religions today are probably more peaceful now than ever�

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It was the environment the Church provided which gave us Newton (himself very religious) and physics, so what outweighs what exactly in the grand scheme of "good or bad" totality of the church?

And if newton was born before the scientific revolution? He was lucky. The world would be a scary place without the cat flap.

The nurture of one great mind does not make up for the hundreds of others great thinkers throughout history that were persecuted for their theories

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The communist had large book burnings too - they weren't religious how can you explain their odd view of sciences and censorship?

I could make so so many parallels between communism and religion, but i don't have the time now. Just think how each doctrine has an altruistic core in which communal wellbeing is a sinequanon, and how both become corrupt money hungry facades

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There is a simple human reaction to resist change, religion just like any other institution embodies these human insticts sometimes. Take that into consideration when you examine the above example. Then also note the accomplishments religion has brought to us.

Resistance of change is human, vehement refutation of change typifies religious zealots.

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No, but as we see in history one does not need religion as an excuse to "ethincially" clense a population, or massacre thousands. I'm sure you can think of many examples just from modernity that would confirm to this point.

True, it's just alot easier to justify a war when there is a religious incentive behind it, the basis of most of these wars are all ethereal.

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Proves my point, the state has done much worse to humanity then religion no?

it was done in the name of Taoism.

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I agree, lets take out the infectious and abhorrent cancer called "government" while we're already at it!

indeed, nihilism is our future..

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Izzy it doesnt take much to see that it is not religion that is the blame for mankind's evil, but rather for the most part it's inate in human behaviour throughout history, be it through government, social or ethinic groups, religious groups, individuals... etc...

I'm not denying that human nature is not barbaric, religion is a major conduit through which we express our violent instincts, and suppress instincts such as sex by giving it bad connotations. Why? Because when you are busy fighting your instinctual urges, you look to G-d to cleanse yourself, which makes you a much better sheep.

A war that may once have been fought over territory, through religion can be fought over the idiotically intangible �My Imaginary friend is more powerful than your imaginary friend�

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The stupidest, most mind stifling, self-destructive notions can always find an open opportunity to perpetuate in the skepticism-free safe haven of religion.

to create a successful religion, all you have to do is confuse the masses, and then convince them that you can guide them out of their confused state

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Originally posted by ahlamalek I think thats why Illusion was banned, he picked on only one religion not putting it in perspective with other religions.

If this is true, then we may have a problem in this forum. If one is supposed to argue for all angles of each issue, there is not much to debate IMO.
As far as I can see, Illusion wrote a well-argued post in a moderated language (which should serve as a good example for some of this forums regulars ). You can disagree with his opinion and points but - apart from calling the Quaran a "hoax" - I see nothing which should offend any rational person.

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Originally posted by trancaholic If this is true, then we may have a problem in this forum. If one is supposed to argue for all angles of each issue, there is not much to debate IMO. As far as I can see, Illusion wrote a well-argued post in a moderated language (which should serve as a good example for some of this forums regulars ). You can disagree with his opinion and points but - apart from calling the Quaran a "hoax" - I see nothing which should offend any rational person.

i kind of agree with your point, covering all the angles is hard, but showing a balanced argument with other examples is something that we gotta at least do too... else we just end up "pasting" stuff on this board.

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Originally posted by trancaholic If this is true, then we may have a problem in this forum. If one is supposed to argue for all angles of each issue, there is not much to debate IMO. As far as I can see, Illusion wrote a well-argued post in a moderated language (which should serve as a good example for some of this forums regulars ). You can disagree with his opinion and points but - apart from calling the Quaran a "hoax" - I see nothing which should offend any rational person.

I agree. If we banned everyone who voiced their disagreement with anything (and did so without providing the "other" view) we wouldn't have many people left in this forum. There wasn't anything racist in what Illusion said: he didn't even use the word "Muslims". The post was directed the moral / factual substance of the Koran, not at Muslims or the Islamic faith in general. If we start banning people for slating the Koran then we're going to have to start banning people for slating the Bible (or any other text?) as well. Believe me, if that happens, I think half the people who post in this forum are likely to mysteriously disappear overnight.

sorry, this is old...my net died last night

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Originally posted by Yoepus ... Its all very subjective in your view, however I would argue religion was not the reason that caused these wars. It was other political, ethnic, economic, and social circumstances that are a detrement to war.

But, moreso in recent history the divisions of regimes, and ethnic groups has either come from religion or some sort of 'race' ethos. Of course, beyond the crusades there is little impetus for an ONLY religion based war. But if religion is the overarching motive, or the most discernable difference (see: post USSR, Caucasian confl) does that make it less lucid?

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I would even boldy argue that aside perhaps from the Chinese occupation of Tibet, there is no religious war today (and the Chinese didn't really invade Tibet because they believed in a God.. although this was certainly a factor). Even this Western/Islamic war is a war of philosophy not of religion. It is not Christianity vs. Islam, it is the West vs. this philosophy of Islam, an Islamic fundamentalisim, or Isalmism.

I would perhaps argue that China, and much of Asia hasnt seen this kind of religious based conflict. China has for much of its history had multiple religions coexisting, minus Maoist China.

And although the Islamic/Western conflict of now is BOTH religious and philosophical i believe that religion is the decisive factor. The way these theocratic regimes/states are set up in the Mid East/Central Asia is what the West finds threatening. al-Qaeda and the Taliban are not the same thing. The Taliban brought law(Islamic) and order(no more opium) to Afghanistan. It was only when a rich Saudi came into a hospitable, fundamentalist climate with his own extreme fundamentalism that the US took notice.

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Afterall lets look at the time before Monotheism, before "institutionalized religion"; The period before Emporer Constantine declared Christianity the religion of Rome. Thats 4000+ years of history, right? Now tell me.. do you know how many numerous and untold wars happened during this period? Thousands. Just think of the Greeks, or the Persians alone. Now in these cases it was not a fight for religion, of course their pagan Gods offered support and advice on wether to venture into battle, but rarely was it for religious sake (after all most were pagans who cared little about what river god one chose to believe over the other, paganism due to its acceptance of multiple gods is fairly tolerant in this regard). Now only was war quiet numerous during these times (as large unified states were few) but they were also more ruthless and savage.

Might this be the period of a certain amount of proselytation of 'barbarous savages' such as the pagan Vikings? I understand an Imperialist component but much conquering was done in the name of a God(or Gods), whether Greek/Roman/Moor/etc. Im sure there were squabbles and infighting, but here Im speaking more generally of the serious wars...but I admit this is a weak subject as im not a History major.

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To argue then that religion is the primary factor of war is very ridicilous; war happened before our "modern" religion, the ancient viewed the reasons for war as varying (Plato simplisitcally put war's cause as the overpopulation and greed of neighbors), and today the several varying theories of war, Balance of Power, the NeoConservative, and Classical Liberal views do not even consider religion as a prime cause of war. Today more wars are propgated to creation between ethnic lines rather than religion.

I understand that humans have fought for longer than 'modern' religion. But even so, religion, modern or premodern has been an organizing tool, and education tool. And even before 'classical' man there has been relgious paganism as a way to separate, join and fuel the conflict that is most likely inherent in man.

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... Most of Asia never had strong institutionalized religions, and therefore always basically provided a supporting view to the rulers.

I agreed with you here.

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True but compare apples with apples. And second, I am talking about the brutality of the state, a powerful state IMO is powerful as it has all the liberty in its hands, and deprives its citizens of liberty. Continuing... Maosit, and Stalinists were basically facisit, right? Good. Who else were facisits? Hitler and Mussolini.

But Mao and Stalin were authoritarian communists. Marxism eschews the use of religion, a key difference.

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Both Mao and Stalin got away with slaughtering their very own ethnic countrymen by the hundreds of thousands if not millions. I would argue first that these slaughters were grossly unproportional to any necessity to instill their rule.

Well Mao created the greatest human genocide on the planet. Yet I would argue it wasnt for genocides sake. Starving 60 million of your peasant support base is largely an information issue in Maoist China, and as for sending bourgeoisie liberals to work camps, well I dont equate this exactly with Hitler or Mussolini (ie not apples to apples)

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Now how come Hitler and Mussolini did not slaughter there people in similar capacity, I would argue that they simply couldn't. The Catholic Church which was very strong in both these countries would never allow it, it protected its people offering a protection against such brutality and deprivation of rights.

Perhaps, but then again they didnt have the population base, or country size (even with ~ half of Europe) to effectively compare. Hitler still managed to slaughter a good number, even with the Church.

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Similarly one might even opine that if the Jews had such a strong institutionalized religion it might of afforded them more liberities and avoided their slaughter, something the Catholic Church was all to pleased to look the other way at. ...

Dont follow you...you seem to be contradicting yourself with the Church preventing slaughter and then allowing it in the case of the Jews?

I dont know if thats what you mean. its just unclear to me|

both suspensions have been reversed.

I think people should be allowed to state their opinions about religions, as long as you don't say kill another or hate him because he believes as such. I don't agree with everything said but some points have been raised that make you think and make you want to do more research into it. I welcome comments about religions, as long as they can be stated in a decent matter because after all, everyone decides for themselves and what they believe is dependent on them. I think people should question their own beliefs because asking questions and learning..makes you that much more or that much less confident in your beliefs. I've done that with my own beliefs and I have more confidence and trust because of it.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Although we don't "torture and kill" our scholars that think so radically today, we do tend to institutionalize them (think Beautiful Mind), refuse to isolate their papers in any journals of repute, and isolate them from peer review and their collegaues.

Yes, well, that's kinda the point. We don't torture or kill them anymore, as we don't do what religious fundamentalists would want us to do.

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To argue then that religion is the primary factor of war is very ridicilous; war happened before our "modern" religion, the ancient viewed the reasons for war as varying (Plato simplisitcally put war's cause as the overpopulation and greed of neighbors), and today the several varying theories of war, Balance of Power, the NeoConservative, and Classical Liberal views do not even consider religion as a prime cause of war. Today more wars are propgated to creation between ethnic lines rather than religion.

Religion is not a primary factor for the war, that is true. It's rather a tool. Not many people are going to fight nowadays just to take some land for their country. But if the other side is of different religion, a whole new cause for war appears. Religion is not the reason leaders declare wars on each others, but is often a reason common people accept to participate in them. They view the other side as corrupt and evil, and therefore they're not doing a bad thing by killing them. After all, they're a bunch of heretic infidels who deny the words of creator himself.

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From my common knowledge the library was destroyed by fire, but it is unknown how this happened. Current consensus is that it was accidental.

Did you ever read Civilopedia??? It says there nicely that it was destroyed by religious fundamentalists.


Anyway, I too feel that I have to side with Illusion on the matter of his banning. It is true that the picture he posted was a bit harsh, but come on, all the religious scriptures are a bunch of nonsense. Yes, they attempt to convey a moral message, but if taken literally, they're rediculous. Just to prevent my suspension from these forums, I'll be fair and point out fallacies and misconceptions in all three religions:

Jews and the Torah: World created several thousand years ago? People living 900 years? God presenting himself with magnificent feats of power? Noah's arc? Samson getting superman power from his hair? Come on...Not to mention all those stupid laws Cyrus King mentioned earlier.

Christians and the Bible: All from the Torah+the fact that original new testaments were lost and all we have is a transcript from 4th century. A transcript with many missing parts and controversies. I'm too tired to search now through the bible to show where all those chapters are directly contradicting each other, but if someone is really interested, let me know. Besides, funny how christmas and easter correspond with earlier pagan rituals. It seems most likely to me that christianity is a sort of a mixture between ideas of egyptian solar cult and actions of esens and zealots during roman occupation. As far as their behaviour goes in history, it's been less than exemplary, as the inquisition and crusades clearly show.

Muslims and the Kuran: Now, I must admit I'm not as educated in this area, but even so, there are some obvious idiocities, aside from the fact Illusion mentioned, that Muhammed was a psycho that liked to kill, rob and screw teens (althoug, to be honest, who didn't back in the days?) The Jihad as one of the commandments? Poligamy? Forbiddding women to go out alone? Forbidding pork? Forbidding women to show their faces in public? Worshiping a damn meteor? Getting 72 raisins for dying in battle? Now, while christians and jews have largely advanced past their barbaric behaviour, many muslims still haven't. They're still obstructing research, progress and democracy. They're also commiting suicide attacks against civilians in belief they'll go to heaven for that, and let's not mention total unacceptance of other religions, like tearing down the buddhist monuments in Afghanistan.

Now, I'm sorry if I have offended any of you here, but the fact of the matter is that religions are inconsistent and often retarded in their beliefs. If you mods don't agree, then feel free to correct me wherever I'm wrong.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Jews and the Torah: World created several thousand years ago? People living 900 years? God presenting himself with magnificent feats of power? Noah's arc? Samson getting superman power from his hair? Come on...Not to mention all those stupid laws Cyrus King mentioned earlier.

best story ever, dude!

Illusion is not banned anymore....did you ppl read when i said that.

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Originally posted by torontotrance Illusion is not banned anymore....did you ppl read when i said that.

Yeah, but I was writing my post while you posted yours so I didn't see it.

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Originally posted by TranceGiant best story ever, dude!

Yeah, for a fairy tale it's quite a literary achievement

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Originally posted by torontotrance Illusion is not banned anymore....did you ppl read when i said that.

Yes. Glad to see that mods listen when they are reasoned with.

justice is done once again by the GOOD mods

take or leave the bible as reality, its still a BOMB story and we can all learn a lot from parables...

Personally I need a foundation to base my life on, and I find the torah with its stories and rules and everything give a good foundation to base my life on.

We all need someone to start our defintions of things right?

GOOD DAY

well done mods
everybody is entitled to post like DJ BARON around here
especially when he pulls an act like this

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Originally posted by DJBARON your full of shit and that argument stands on no group! calling me a zealot? LOL Your a blind idiot! put anything about G-d on the side, lets all be athiests for a minute. it does not change the fact that islam is a bullshit religion that brings death to the world. No idea in the world should exist that brings death in its wake. Islam encourages this, and is a cancer on this world. the funny thing is no one can argue against what is said here, you just call me little names boo! hoo! argue fact? Argue logic? Your brain is mushy, go learn something and argue like a man little boy.

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Originally posted by ZinG well done mods everybody is entitled to post like DJ BARON around here especially when he pulls an act like this

you see it is ok for him to say things like that because he was angry

oh excuse me
i forgot to be angry as well then

looks to me like a get out of jail free card, quote DJBARONs post next time you feel like explaining a countries malignant and carcinogenic properties

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Originally posted by ZinG oh excuse me i forgot to be angry as well then

I was being sarcastic!!there is no excuse for what he said,he offended me and many others on this board by his comments.If there is such thing as freedom of speach,then it should apply to everyone,not just certain people.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer I was being sarcastic!!there is no excuse for what he said,he offended me and many others on this board by his comments.If there is such thing as freedom of speach,then it should apply to everyone,not just certain people.

i was being sarcastic as well
but he went too far with this one
to call a religion a bullshit religion shows how low he is. I don't care about religion but i do respect what they STAND FOR. And they all have the same message, but when it comes to technicalities and details everyones starts translating it for his favour that's when it gets dirty. But judging it on how people use it that's plainly stupid. DJ Baron you a pig, and i think i have the right to say it if he has the right to degrade others religion.

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Originally posted by ZinG i was being sarcastic as well but he went too far with this one to call a religion a bullshit religion shows how low he is. I don't care about religion but i do respect what they STAND FOR. And they all have the same message, but when it comes to technicalities and details everyones starts translating it for his favour that's when it gets dirty. But judging it on how people use it that's plainly stupid. DJ Baron you a pig, and i think i have the right to say it if he has the right to degrade others religion.

yes he did go far,and he it seems like he isnt very sorry for what he has said.Since he is not banned anymore, he probably thinks that it is ok for him to make such comments about a religion,and this is not a good example to show others since it seems like it is ok to make negative comments about islam.
perhaps there should be some sort of rules set here,and make it sticky so that everyone could see.I know we are all adults here(not all)but to me it seems necessary to have some rules setup here.
I'm not trying to say that the mods arent doing their jobs,but after what I saw happend on this thread made me wonder!!

Is this Satanism or religion of God?


What does this have to do with spirituality?


The mourners bleed after beating themselves with barbed chains


A father mutilating his son to bleed


A mother rejoices after inflicting wounds on the head of her toddler




Palestinian crowd waves interior body parts of butchered human victim.




A Hindu being beaten by Muslims in a mosque in Bangladesh. He was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayers were over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Mr. Vimal Patak a Bangladeshi born Hindu was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim mullas (priests) chanted "kill the Kafir!" (non-muslim). With folded hands he begged for his life and died a brutal death. It clearly show the cruelty of Islam. "



This is how Islam elevates Woman




Now I don't know what the people who banned me think savegary is and why should someone's voice be silenced for speaking against it but my definition lands quite close.

Ok I'm done. you can bann me now.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Protecting your own countrymen on this forum? How nationally patriotic of you

I've said before I'm not really Australian. I'm persian but I've been living here since I was a kid.

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Originally posted by Illusion Is this Satanism or religion of God? What does this have to do with spirituality? The mourners bleed after beating themselves with barbed chains A father mutilating his son to bleed A mother rejoices after inflicting wounds on the head of her toddler Palestinian crowd waves interior body parts of butchered human victim. A Hindu being beaten by Muslims in a mosque in Bangladesh. He was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayers were over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Mr. Vimal Patak a Bangladeshi born Hindu was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim mullas (priests) chanted "kill the Kafir!" (non-muslim). With folded hands he begged for his life and died a brutal death. It clearly show the cruelty of Islam. " This is how Islam elevates Woman Now I don't know what the people who banned me think savegary is and why should someone's voice be silenced for speaking against it but my definition lands quite close. Ok I'm done. you can bann me now.

What da fuck are u trying to prove here???
why do you always have to bring out the negatives about Islam??
Iam disgusted by your behaviour and your hate toward muslims.
You want to dig and find out the dirt about other religions??you think other relegions are perfect??

you are an idiot,and you should get banned for posting someting like this!!you have alot of hate in you dude,take some chill pills.

I firmly believe that the day will come when Islam as a religion will go through its own version of the Reformation. It is one thing to be devoted and religous, but it is another thing to be absolutely intolerant of what is different from your beliefs. I have always looked at Islam as a religion that has many great ideals, the interpretation of it by some followers however, leave a lot to be desired. I don't live in an Islamic society, but I would like someone who does to tell me this. What does Iran accomplish by hanging women and have them on display in public spaces, does this truly stop immoral behaviors by women. Friedrich Nietzsche once said that "religion is the shackle of the masses, used to control and maintain society." He was of course referring to Europe then, but my is it applicable today in Iran and a lot of the Middle East. Islamic societies will one day find a fair balance between values, human rights and justice, today is not that day however.

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