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-- Iran Quake vs. Cali. Quake
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quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis this area being a ancient area, wouldn't building newer architechure wipe out its historical value and significance?

no but an earthquake wiped out its historical significance...

i know Bam has not experienced earthquakes in the past god knows how many years but its common knowledge that the whole of Iran lies on a fault line - even several fault lines perhaps - so it would only be precaution to assume that Bam is susceptible to earthquakes.

The psychological theory is called disaster myopia - sit on a chair in public and you will never check below for a bomb. But if next week there was a bomb explosion from underneath a chair in the same place you would always check for a bomb - even though increased security would probably mean low chances for the next time.

All it takes is a low probability-high impact event to wake everyone up. But by nature they will fall asleep again.

quote:

Originally posted by razmataz no but an earthquake wiped out its historical significance... i know Bam has not experienced earthquakes in the past god knows how many years but its common knowledge that the whole of Iran lies on a fault line - even several fault lines perhaps - so it would only be precaution to assume that Bam is susceptible to earthquakes. The psychological theory is called disaster myopia - sit on a chair in public and you will never check below for a bomb. But if next week there was a bomb explosion from underneath a chair in the same place you would always check for a bomb - even though increased security would probably mean low chances for the next time. All it takes is a low probability-high impact event to wake everyone up. But by nature they will fall asleep again.

- Ok.. but there hasent been an earquake in centuries on that area.. there are historic sites that are centuries old!!! never had they been affected.. how the heck should they know or take precautions. Just like I said earlier.. US is just as vulnerable at things like that. Hurricane Andrew wiped out thousands of houses and killed many as well, why didnt gov't invest in better houses that are able to withstand hurricanes?? .. knowint that Miami is in path of Hurricanes.. or why is California still building houses and this hole that in any many millions could die if this hole opens ( which is predicted to ).. see.. even by predition.. so come on!! .. this is nonsense really. I mean, I know is debate area, but debating on blaming Iranian gov't for this .. oh plz.

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX - Ok.. but there hasent been an earquake in centuries on that area.. there are historic sites that are centuries old!!! never had they been affected.. how the heck should they know or take precautions. Just like I said earlier.. US is just as vulnerable at things like that. Hurricane Andrew wiped out thousands of houses and killed many as well, why didnt gov't invest in better houses that are able to withstand hurricanes?? .. knowint that Miami is in path of Hurricanes.. or why is California still building houses and this hole that in any many millions could die if this hole opens ( which is predicted to ).. see.. even by predition.. so come on!! .. this is nonsense really. I mean, I know is debate area, but debating on blaming Iranian gov't for this .. oh plz.

I understand that absolutely... you can't predict earthquakes and Bam hadnt experienced one for a very long time - although tremors are common throughout Iran. I am not blaming the government for not being able to predict an earhtquake.

But would this low probability event force the government to invest in better housing around the country? After all the Caspian sea earthquake in the early 90s was a relatively higher probability one and many people died from collapsed houses. I would be interested to know how many of those have been rebuilt on stronger foundations.

im in full agreeance here with Liquid X

To blame the government on the structural foundations of the buildings and they being responsible for the death of all these people, is plain ridiculous....considering that an earthquake hadnt hit that area for hundreds of years...

Just look at the historical monuments that lasted until this earthquake hit.

Like Liquid X explained, DOPEY, why not blame the US government for the deaths caused by hurricane andrew in 1992?

If we take your stance, that government is more at fault becuase Hurricanes have and will continue to affect that region, they homes and buildings still seem to collapse when a storm comes.

How about the Missisipi flooding in 93. Many died, so why couldnt the US build a wall or some barrier before hand knowing the river could overflow...

Your argument is fultile.

I was originally going to avoid this discussion of the Government of Iran being at fault or not, but since all of you guys want to attack Dopey, please check out this website http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3352479.stm here you will see that the Reformist and Conservatives, along with even hardline newspapers attack the government for the poor planning. The argument does not lie with the destruction of the historic Bam citadels itself, those were there and could not be changed. I believe it was in the buildings that people lived in that represents the fundamental argument. Comparing a hurricane to an earthquake is very pointless because the U.S. can track a hurricane and evacuate people who are willing to do so. As has been mentioned before, you cannot predict or track an earthquake. Maybe it is hindsight to look at this situation and say the government should have better housing for the people but it now seems the best alternative compared to what happend. The Iranian press certainly feels so. With that said I hope that the words of the Iranian government to rebuild Bam stronger and better will be the case, we don't need these kind of tragedies, the toll of suffering is priceless for society.

I also don't want to drag myself into this. But to say that earthquakes don't occur regularly in Iran is not true. With so many deaths in such a short amount of time, I think something should have been done, in all areas. This could have been inspections, reinforcements, anything. Of course, if someone can show me that Iran was trying to do something, I'll gladly eat my words. Below is a list of Iran's major earthquakes in the last 30 or so years.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26137731.htm

quote:

Apr 10, 1972 - An earthquake with a radius of more than 250 miles struck southern Iran around Ghir Karzin. 5,374 people were killed. The quake measured 7.1 on the Richter scale. Mar 22, 1977 - 167 people were killed when an earthquake struck the southeastern coastal region around the town of Bandar Abbas. It measured 7 on the Richter scale. Apr 6/7, 1977 - 352 people were killed when an earthquake struck Isfahan province. It measured 6.5 on the Richter Scale. Dec 21, 1977 - An earthquake measuring 6.2 on the Richter scale struck the town of Zarand in Kerman Province, killing 521 people. Sept 16, 1978 - 15,000 people were killed by an earthquake which measured between 7.5 and 7.9 on the Richter scale. It levelled the town of Tabas and many other villages. Jan 16, 1979 - An earthquake measuring 7 on the Richter scale struck Khorasan province, killing 199 people. Nov 14, 1979 - An earthquake struck eastern Iran measuring 5.6 on the Richter scale. It struck a string of villages between Qaen and Khaf in Khorasan province, killing at least 385 people. Jun 11, 1981 - 1,027 people were killed and more than 800 injured. It measured 6.8 on the Richter scale. The town of Golbaf, 800 km (500 miles) southeast of Tehran, was destroyed. Jun 21, 1990 - 35,000 died and 100,000 were injured in the worst recorded disaster in Iran. The quake, which registered 7.7 on the Richter scale, devastated the Caspian regions of Gilan and Zanjan. Some 500,000 were made homeless. Feb 28, 1997 - A quake measuring 5.5 on the Richter scale killed about 1,000 people in northwestern Iran. May 10, 1997 - A quake measuring 7.1 on the Richter scale killed 1,560 people in rural areas of eastern Iran near the Afghan border. Jun 22, 2002 - An earthquake measuring 6.3 on the Richter scale razed dozens of villages in north Iran's Qazvin province killing 229. Dec 26, 2003 - An earthquake measuring 6.3 on the Richter scale struck the historic city of Bam, 1,000 km (600 miles) southeast of Tehran. About 60 per cent of the buildings were destroyed, killing at least 2,000.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's over 80,000 (assuming 20,000 killed on Dec. 26) people killed by earthquakes since 1972. With that many killed, I can't imagine the government wouldn't try to do something about the situation throughout the country. There is a clear record of earthquakes along with high fatality rates. Somebody show me Iran was trying to do something, and I'll shut my mouth.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I was originally going to avoid this discussion of the Government of Iran being at fault or not, but since all of you guys want to attack Dopey, please check out this website http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3352479.stm here you will see that the Reformist and Conservatives, along with even hardline newspapers attack the government for the poor planning. The argument does not lie with the destruction of the historic Bam citadels itself, those were there and could not be changed. I believe it was in the buildings that people lived in that represents the fundamental argument. Comparing a hurricane to an earthquake is very pointless because the U.S. can track a hurricane and evacuate people who are willing to do so. As has been mentioned before, you cannot predict or track an earthquake. Maybe it is hindsight to look at this situation and say the government should have better housing for the people but it now seems the best alternative compared to what happend. The Iranian press certainly feels so. With that said I hope that the words of the Iranian government to rebuild Bam stronger and better will be the case, we don't need these kind of tragedies, the toll of suffering is priceless for society.

Its hard to predict when an earthquake strikes, and in this case, one like the magnitude that hit Bam never struck for centuries. I think its in the governments responsibility to invest in earthquake prone buildings, but it will take a long time to fully build these throughout the country. They have already done it in Tehran and other major cities. To blame everything on them is ridiculous.

It takes time. Lets hope these corrupt officials keep to their words.

With respect to the Hurricane situation, i was enforcing the idea that Andrew practically tore Miami apart. Why didnt they invest in better building structures? The whole population didnt evacuate... and thousands were injured by falling roofs.

I seem to recall, not too long ago, a lot of blame being placed on the US government with regards to a certain accidental power outtage that occurred. I don't see why the Iranian government cannot be similarly critisized. Especially considering they have something of a sordid history with this sort of thing.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I seem to recall, not too long ago, a lot of blame being placed on the US government with regards to a certain accidental power outtage that occurred. I don't see why the Iranian government cannot be similarly critisized. Especially considering they have something of a sordid history with this sort of thing.

- After analyazing this topic, I've come to see that whenever a catostrophy happens, blame will be upon government. For everything. From Mudslides, to heat waves, to blizzards, to Hurricanes, to Torandos. Every country will have the blame upon government for this catastrophies. Is like a way to vent, or a way to blame someone. OVerall, I find it pointless to have a debate on this, because this can easily lead to blaming the US for all the deaths that have occured on mudslides, tornadoes, Hurricanes, heat waves and such.. or blame France for the recent Heat Wave... or Germany for last years tremendous flooding.. or.. the US once again for that terrible Earthquake that hit cali. in the early 90's.. for making such highways and buildings to not withold the buildings.. but you see, the debate will lead to nothing. Ive allready made my point though. And I think that the major thing that governments around the world should look upon is Global Warming.. that will cause any type of climate and atmospheric changes, but even that is up in debate.

I don't think we're trying to blame Iran for the natural disaster in itself, we're trying to say that Iran should have done something to make the country more prepared in the case of a future earthquake.

I showed in a previous post that in the last 30 years there have been over 80,000...yes 80,000 Iranian deaths because of earthquakes. If 80,000 dead citizens was not enough motivation for Iran to take some sort of action to help prevent further needless deaths do to structural problems that could have feasibly been corrected, then yes, I will blame their government. Iran has had a history filled with earthquakes, so dismissing this earthquake as a "fluke" is rediculous.

As occrider pointed out, if a power outtage that led to a handful of deaths can be used as fodder to pick apart the American government, I fail to see where 80,000 deaths can't be used to pick apart another.

california has a strict building code, iran doesnt. end of discussion.

im not going to read all four pages

also iran has wmds like iraq has right? thats why israel has attack their WMDs facilties

hijacking...

in all fairness to Israel, Iraq and Israel were in a open state of war when it struck it's nuclear reactor, and it genuinely feared that Baghadad would use whatever nukes it had immediately with no hessitation aginst Israel. I am not so clear current Israelis veiw Iran as such a direct threat to their existance, although the possibility of Iran giving WMD to terrorist is obviously there foremost concern.

what WMDs

quote:

what WMDs

Uh-oh....here we go. Let the games begin.

quote:

Originally posted by rizen what WMDs

The ones they've admitted they've been trying to procure in the past.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Dec20.html

Although admittedly it appears that Iran is becoming less of a threat by cooperating with the IAEA and submitting to spot inspections.

This is disturbing.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...n_doomsday_dc_1

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King This is disturbing. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...n_doomsday_dc_1

i think is there was ever a major earthquake in tehran they would be lucky if a million people didn't die.

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis Mud Huts??, hmmm your retarded parents definetly dropped you on your head. Have you even read the news, properly...or do you just look at the points and just come and spread your shitty views on the boards. The earthquake happened on a 2000 year old area, Iranians compared to americans want to keep their ancient heritage intact and preserve it, it is not the governments or even the peoples fault. Please don't come here and think you know what your talking about dickhead. Have you even seen the other parts of Iran before commenting about mud huts or some shit? ahhh i don't think so, your ignorance has spoken. wow, no surprise there, you follow in his retard tradition. and to say that Iran could have done more, what about 9/11, couldn't America do more for that...maybe build better buldings rather than mourn about the people who are dead and the families who are grieving, you come here and practically say that Iran deserved it because they didn't do alot...pfft, ignorance.

why do you have to insult. does it make you feel more powerful badmouthing someone over a message board where he cant kick your ass? your parents must not have taught you any manners. you should work on your manners and not make fun of people, beside, this is an online message board, do you think it hurts his feelings when you call him or his parents retarded?

quote:

Originally posted by rizen california has a strict building code, iran doesnt. end of discussion. im not going to read all four pages also iran has wmds like iraq has right? thats why israel has attack their WMDs facilties

i think iran probably has building codes, but they dont follow them, or else so many people would not have died. although it is not the goverments fault that the earthquake struck, since they are unpredictable, it is their fault for not enforcing building codes.

quote:

Originally posted by hadi ****** why do you have to insult. does it make you feel more powerful badmouthing someone over a message board where he cant kick your ass? your parents must not have taught you any manners. you should work on your manners and not make fun of people, beside, this is an online message board, do you think it hurts his feelings when you call him or his parents retarded?

it seems that you havent read the posts above that one. he wasnt the fist one to throw the insults, he merely responded to them.

quote:

Originally posted by hadi ****** i think iran probably has building codes, but they dont follow them, or else so many people would not have died. although it is not the goverments fault that the earthquake struck, since they are unpredictable, it is their fault for not enforcing building codes.

-- Damm, then Miami is not following building codes then, for not making strong enough houses to withstand hurricanes.. oh man!!

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX -- Damm, then Miami is not following building codes then, for not making strong enough houses to withstand hurricanes.. oh man!!

Building code designs don't necessitate that houses survive hurricane force conditions. To do so would be a far too costly and impractical to put in motion. For one, who would be able to afford to live in Florida? You would immediately exclude the poor who would not be able to build all their houses out of concrete or what not. Second of all, given the unpredictable path of the hurricane, infrequency of strikes, redevelopment of new homes/communities, etc., and doing a cost/benefit analysis, yields far greater costs than benefits. So where is the risk factor of hurricanes taken into account? Insurance ... your housing insurance rates are probably a lot higher than other regions. You then balance out the high costs of your premiums over years of inactivity for when a hurricane does happen to hit. All your premiums are then paid out to those who are actually effected by the disaster. It's a far more efficient system than hurricane proofing every single house and home imo. I wouldn't even know how you would go about doing such a thing. HOwever, there likely are building codes that would LIMIT the amount of damage a periphary hurricane can cause to a structure that passes the cost/benefit analysis test.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Building code designs don't necessitate that houses survive hurricane force conditions. To do so would be a far too costly and impractical to put in motion.

I'm pretty sure every house in Bermuda, for instance, is built to be hurricane proof.

I believe they are obliged by law to build out fo Bermuda limestone or concrete blocks.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Building code designs don't necessitate that houses survive hurricane force conditions. To do so would be a far too costly and impractical to put in motion. For one, who would be able to afford to live in Florida? You would immediately exclude the poor who would not be able to build all their houses out of concrete or what not. Second of all, given the unpredictable path of the hurricane, infrequency of strikes, redevelopment of new homes/communities, etc., and doing a cost/benefit analysis, yields far greater costs than benefits. So where is the risk factor of hurricanes taken into account? Insurance ... your housing insurance rates are probably a lot higher than other regions. You then balance out the high costs of your premiums over years of inactivity for when a hurricane does happen to hit. All your premiums are then paid out to those who are actually effected by the disaster. It's a far more efficient system than hurricane proofing every single house and home imo. I wouldn't even know how you would go about doing such a thing. HOwever, there likely are building codes that would LIMIT the amount of damage a periphary hurricane can cause to a structure that passes the cost/benefit analysis test.

- For hurricane Andrew, you could easily see the houses the followed the code and those that didnt. There was this private community, whose houses had barely any damage.. while all the surrounding houses were destroyed...

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX -- Damm, then Miami is not following building codes then, for not making strong enough houses to withstand hurricanes.. oh man!!

i dont really give a shit about miami (as far as this thread is concerned). this thread is iran quake vs california quake, not iran quake vs hurricanes in miami

quote:

Originally posted by fuct4less it seems that you havent read the posts above that one. he wasnt the fist one to throw the insults, he merely responded to them.

i read the whole thread. 2 wrongs make it right though? did you see how i responded to him without any flames. last time i checked this was a discussion board, not a flame board

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