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-- Guide to Harmonic Mixing 1.0
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Hey Borron,

Nice to see that you are really putting it to use.

As you say, you do need quite a large amount of tunes if you are going to do it that way.

Here is another type of mix you may want to try though:

Ok, this isn't meant for a long term fade or anything like that, it's actually to pick the energy up. You basically have two different versions of it.
It's important that you do this in a section when not too much is going on in the record as it will sound diabolical otherwise.

THE KEY CHANGE MIX
First version:
Get a record that goes in C minor. Play until you reach a suitable mixing point i.e. you don't have a lot more going on other than bassline and drums. Get another record of suitable style and make sure it goes in a C# minor. This track has to also only have bassline and drums in it. Mix the two parts together but make sure that the incomming track has enough bass taken out of it so you can't hear the bassline (If you do you will hear one of the nastiest key clashes you are likely to ever hear). Make sure that you have the records in phrase. At the end of the phrase just simply do a bass swap. Voila, you will get a nice little rise in energy as the key goes up one.
A lot of rock n' roll tracks in the 50's used to do this close to the end just to give that impression of renewed energy. Dogzilla also likes to mess around with similar changes so be aware if you are mixing his tracks.

Second version:
You can also do an interesting chord change that would still remain in key but would also generate another energy change. If you have the Outgoing record as C minor and then have the incoming record as D minor. These two may not sound so good together if played simultainiously but if you do the bass change over you can give the effect of a chord change (Matt Hardwick does this a lot). This creates more of an emotional change than an energy change.

Cheers
Nem

hi guys

sorry to bring this thread back to life
but i was just a tad confused with a few things.

first and foremost. the minor scale.
are the keys of the minor scale not determined by

tone, semitone, tone, tone, semintone, tone and a half, semitone?

also equivalent to

2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2

the minor scale shares the same key signature with its relative/conjugate major scale, however, the 7th key [in the minor scale] is always raised one semitone is it not?

example, for a C minor.

Relative major scale = E flat major, has key signature, B flat, E flat, A flat.

from the guide's piano role diagram

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Nuclear Original Scale Compared to Dominant Scale (C minor vs G minor)

the C minor keys are

C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B flat, C

now, from what i learnt, you raise the 7th note one semitone
so the B flat, becomes a B.

therefore,

C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B, C


if what i say is true, does this not throw off the theory of why a dominant fits into the tonic key? the reasoning particularly for C minor into G minor was that 6 of the 7 keys are the same in both scales [from the diagram], however, if you find both minor keys with raised 7ths, you'll find 3 or 4 keys that do not fit in both scales.

so yea, i'm just a lil confused as to how the dominant and subdominant keys are determined. and the reasoning behind it. i noticed for all major keys, the dominants and subdominants are all major and for minor keys, minor.

but why?

i thought that the dominant triad in a C minor, are the keys G, B, D which makes a G major chord. so why is not G major? but instead G minor.

hope somebody will be able to clarify and explain this to me

cheers

Ive jus installed MixMeister.. and got a few tracks under my Catalog..How do I find the key for it .. from there.


John

quote:

Originally posted by JayKuE hi guys sorry to bring this thread back to life but i was just a tad confused with a few things. first and foremost. the minor scale. are the keys of the minor scale not determined by tone, semitone, tone, tone, semintone, tone and a half, semitone? also equivalent to 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2 the minor scale shares the same key signature with its relative/conjugate major scale, however, the 7th key [in the minor scale] is always raised one semitone is it not? example, for a C minor. Relative major scale = E flat major, has key signature, B flat, E flat, A flat. from the guide's piano role diagram the C minor keys are C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B flat, C now, from what i learnt, you raise the 7th note one semitone so the B flat, becomes a B. therefore, C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B, C if what i say is true, does this not throw off the theory of why a dominant fits into the tonic key? the reasoning particularly for C minor into G minor was that 6 of the 7 keys are the same in both scales [from the diagram], however, if you find both minor keys with raised 7ths, you'll find 3 or 4 keys that do not fit in both scales. so yea, i'm just a lil confused as to how the dominant and subdominant keys are determined. and the reasoning behind it. i noticed for all major keys, the dominants and subdominants are all major and for minor keys, minor. but why? i thought that the dominant triad in a C minor, are the keys G, B, D which makes a G major chord. so why is not G major? but instead G minor. hope somebody will be able to clarify and explain this to me cheers

the scale 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2 is harmonic minor, not minor. harmonic minor has an augmented seventh. Normal minor is 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2.
Dominant/subdominant chords are in the same scale as the originating scale, so if c minor, then the dominant is g minor, and c major, then g major.

The guide will get an update next week hopefully, when I have some time because of spring break.

cheers for that dj nuclear.

i didnt actually realise there was a "natural" minor. just harmonic and melodic. if that's the case, is it more often that tunes are written in natural minor, harmonic minor or an even weight of both?

if both are used, curiously, would it also not be important to distinguish these types of minor scales in harmonic mixing? i mention this as it seems all minor scales are treated the same, when maybe they should not be so?

for example, i understand how harmonious a transition may be when changing from a tonic natural minor to a subdominant or dominant natural minor as there is only 1 key out of place when comparing both scales. however, when a tonic natural minor is mixed into a subdominant or dominant harmonic minor, 2 keys now become out of place.

moreover, when a tonic harmonic minor is mixed into another subdominant/dominant harmonic minor, 3 keys are out of place. this results in almost half the scale clashing, therefore, cannot be that harmonious?

would i be correct in assuming that the type of minor key being mixed is influential in harmonic mixing?

quote:

Originally posted by JayKuE cheers for that dj nuclear. i didnt actually realise there was a "natural" minor. just harmonic and melodic. if that's the case, is it more often that tunes are written in natural minor, harmonic minor or an even weight of both? if both are used, curiously, would it also not be important to distinguish these types of minor scales in harmonic mixing? i mention this as it seems all minor scales are treated the same, when maybe they should not be so? for example, i understand how harmonious a transition may be when changing from a tonic natural minor to a subdominant or dominant natural minor as there is only 1 key out of place when comparing both scales. however, when a tonic natural minor is mixed into a subdominant or dominant harmonic minor, 2 keys now become out of place. moreover, when a tonic harmonic minor is mixed into another subdominant/dominant harmonic minor, 3 keys are out of place. this results in almost half the scale clashing, therefore, cannot be that harmonious? would i be correct in assuming that the type of minor key being mixed is influential in harmonic mixing?

The majority of songs are written in normal minor, with some examples of harmonic minor as green martian - harmonic minor, and dawnseekers - gothic dream (iirc), and an example of melodic minor is some psy, such as SUN project - at the edge of time.

Generally, the majority of regular trance tracks are written in natural minor, so you don't normally have to worry about it. It matters somewhat, but I don't know if there are better key correlations from other scales for those ones. I'll look at it later when I do the next update.

I can't seem to edit this anymore...can one of the mods maybe change that?

ok i gotta question

Cminor scale:
1st_2nd_3rd_4th_5th_6th_7th
C___D___D#__F___G___G#__A#

i know mixing into the 4th and 5th note of the scale works well and this is (what it seems like) most dj's do ..
in the guide i think it mentions that you can mix with any note of the scale ... is it ok if i were to mix from Cm into G# (6th note of the scale)... or should i only mix between 1sts, 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths?

quote:

Originally posted by bent ok i gotta question Cminor scale: 1st_2nd_3rd_4th_5th_6th_7th C___D___D#__F___G___G#__A# i know mixing into the 4th and 5th note of the scale works well and this is (what it seems like) most dj's do .. in the guide i think it mentions that you can mix with any note of the scale ... is it ok if i were to mix from Cm into G# (6th note of the scale)... or should i only mix between 1sts, 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths?

Any note in the scale is okay, but some are better than others (namely, 1st, 4th, 5th). I'll go over it more in the next update, which will *hopefully* be today.

In my experience it doesn't sound too clever when you blend them but you get an intersting effect if you do a straight bass change over. But if you are doing that it's better to go G# to C in that case, the other way round can give the effect of a drop in tempo.
There are better mixes for building energy and so on so this isn't one I do very often. The mix itself tends to give the impression that you are just returning to the original key rather than picking up energy.

Harmonic mixing in it's self is something that should be a core skill for all DJs but it needs to be more than just working out what mixes well. You also have to see what it does do a dance floor emotionally.
You can play the most uplifing set musically speaking in the world but it will mean nothing if you are going backwards in your scales. It's all about rising energy and flow.

Some of you guys may see it differently but that's my 2 Euros worth.

Cheers
Nem

I'm encountering a lot of stuff about harmonic mixing and am very interested in pulling off seamless mixes, but then I think about my audience and I'm not really sure.

I go to clubs often, listening to both major dj's and local ones. I find that "average" clubbers don't care much about the mix. I've heard some AWFUL dj's wreck often but the crowd doesn't care... they keep dancing. People care about the music. Harmonic mixing seems like overkill here. No one will really notice.

Now if I was spinning for other dj's then I see how this is useful. DJ's will be your harshest critic always.

If you go to a clubber and tell him how important harmonic mixes are too him, I'd be surprised if they even know what it is.

That said I will experiement with this in the future, but for a personal thing and not because I want to be perfect in front of a crowd who wants to hear fun songs they know.

Hi Roosh,

I can understand why you would maybe see it like this. Heaven knows there are a lot of people who don't have a clue out there and that includes DJs too.

Think of it like this though.
If you had a clubber who didn't know what harmonic mixing was and stuck him infront of two different DJs. You could play pretty much the same tracks in both sets, but if you jumbled the tracks on one so it wouldn't be harmonic and obviously make the other harmonic. I'm am pretty convinced that he would subconciously enjoy the harmonic set more.
If you then think of this in terms of a crowd who is feeding off of the same thing, it gets more powerful.
If you take a trance track and think about what it is that makes it uplifting, then one answer is the chord/key changes you get. If you use this knowledge in the same way it's going to have a similar effect.

It also gives you a flow where everything just seems to have a natural progression and people respond to that too.

Harmonic mixing is the scientific side of picking the right tune for the right moment or part of it at lest. It is one of the things that really determins if you should play a track or not.
If you don't harmonically mix and you pick records that aren't in key you stand a good chance of killing energy in a place.

I know some of you don't beleive me but trust me when I say this, it is one of the major skills that separates the successful DJs from the guys who may play the local club but never get any further. It's all a question of how good you want to be?

Cheers
Nem

I think dj-ing isn't about reading it in books you have to feel it and flow it :d ... hmm anyway thanks, but my IQ cant dig this level up

Nice thread.

How do I find the key of a track through MixMeister??

John

please use the other thread, but: You just drop the track in and it automatically finds it and lists it in the catalogue.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Hi Roosh, I can understand why you would maybe see it like this. Heaven knows there are a lot of people who don't have a clue out there and that includes DJs too. Think of it like this though. If you had a clubber who didn't know what harmonic mixing was and stuck him infront of two different DJs. You could play pretty much the same tracks in both sets, but if you jumbled the tracks on one so it wouldn't be harmonic and obviously make the other harmonic. I'm am pretty convinced that he would subconciously enjoy the harmonic set more. If you then think of this in terms of a crowd who is feeding off of the same thing, it gets more powerful. If you take a trance track and think about what it is that makes it uplifting, then one answer is the chord/key changes you get. If you use this knowledge in the same way it's going to have a similar effect. It also gives you a flow where everything just seems to have a natural progression and people respond to that too. Harmonic mixing is the scientific side of picking the right tune for the right moment or part of it at lest. It is one of the things that really determins if you should play a track or not. If you don't harmonically mix and you pick records that aren't in key you stand a good chance of killing energy in a place. I know some of you don't beleive me but trust me when I say this, it is one of the major skills that separates the successful DJs from the guys who may play the local club but never get any further. It's all a question of how good you want to be? Cheers Nem

i get you. i will be open minded and try it out

Okies, I'm a bit late but...

Wow... totally speechless...

DJ Nuclear - thankyou for the comprehensive guide, I think all passionate listeners should read this and actually try and feed it through. It is clear and concise and you should consider being a musical tutor!
It obviously took a huge amount of effort and time and we all appreciate your devotion.

how do I find a tracks key in mix meister

Cheers

Nice guide, I started harmonic mixing a couple of weeks ago, and just stumbled on this thread today.

The way I've been doing it, I say if a riff's in D minor for example, then I just say that the track's in F, is that an OK way of doing things? Seems to be working for me.

One thing's confused me though... earlier on I was mixing stuff, experimenting with subdominants, dominants etc (just before I read all this, strangely enough), and it worked the way I thought. However, I then mixed Jacob and Mendez - Deception (which I thought was in F) into Katana - Alesis (Which I thought was in G flat, a semitone above Deception. So I would've thought that mixing these tunes together would sound quite bad, since the key of F only has one flat in it, B flat, and the key of G flat has, well, loads of flats in it. However, by the time melodies started coming in it sounded really good I'm not complaining , but it doesn't really make sense.
BTW Deception was pitched up to around 3.5%, and Alesis somewhere around 1 I think? Was it maybe a change in key, or some kind of weird grey area in between F and G flat?

djsimonb,

2possibilities,

[1] you may have, from the pitch differences changed deception (f major) up to a G flat major key. as its about 3-4% where you may notice difference in key changes?

[2] changing keys a semitone or tone above the last key provides great results/provides an uplifting feel. like a sudden rush/burst/power in the music.

as for saying a riff is in D minor and therefore, in the F major scale. i'd make sure of what key it is in by checking the bassline + chord progressions. though they share the same key signature being relative/conjugate scales. they still have a diff feel. minor - sad, major - happy. keys that fit in D minor won't necessarily fit in F major and vice versa.

might wanna get confirmation about my reasoning though.
i've yet to apply harmonic mixing to my djing.
only stumbled it through learning music theory for production

hmm...I forgot to link to the newer thread...the updated version of the guide is at http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=163031 , so check there if you want the latest version.

*bump just because this is a nice thread*

quote:

Originally posted by DjSimonB Nice guide, I started harmonic mixing a couple of weeks ago, and just stumbled on this thread today. The way I've been doing it, I say if a riff's in D minor for example, then I just say that the track's in F, is that an OK way of doing things? Seems to be working for me. One thing's confused me though... earlier on I was mixing stuff, experimenting with subdominants, dominants etc (just before I read all this, strangely enough), and it worked the way I thought. However, I then mixed Jacob and Mendez - Deception (which I thought was in F) into Katana - Alesis (Which I thought was in G flat, a semitone above Deception. So I would've thought that mixing these tunes together would sound quite bad, since the key of F only has one flat in it, B flat, and the key of G flat has, well, loads of flats in it. However, by the time melodies started coming in it sounded really good I'm not complaining , but it doesn't really make sense. BTW Deception was pitched up to around 3.5%, and Alesis somewhere around 1 I think? Was it maybe a change in key, or some kind of weird grey area in between F and G flat?

Jacob and Mendez - Deception original mix goes in Dm. The Benico remix goes in Bm.

At 3.5% it would mean it's edging towards D#m/Ebm. Can't remember what key Alesis goes in, but it is entirely possible that they actually go in compatible keys.

Cheers
Nem

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