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What can i say ... I'm a slow learner.

ide have to say im pretty fast one

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Originally posted by occrider What can i say ... I'm a slow learner.

Cute occrider!~

Resolution 242

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Originally posted by DigiNut Not really, since the USA's primary motivation in invading Iraq was to get Saddam, not establish a homeland there. The Israelis can't just pack up and go home... they ARE home. I mean, a full generation later, we're talking about people who have grown up in Israel their whole lives - do you think they're going to willingly just hand over their houses to Palestinians? Would you do it, if you were in their position? Israel is their home, and while I'm not saying that the land is "rightfully" theirs, I am saying that it simply isn't practical to tell them to just head for the hills. That arrangement will never work, if anybody wants peace down there then they're going to have to find a better compromise.

The Israelis are home in Israel. The Occupied Territories are not part of Israel unless you want to say that the soldiers and tanks are home. We're not telling Israelis to head for the hills but telling settlers, tanks, and soldiers to go back to Israel. To go back home.

UN Resolution 242 and international law states "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war". Therefore, Israel's acquisition of 67 lands is illegal. People don't win land by war anymore. I've said this before you came along. Conquering land is a thing of the past and is a grave violation of human rights in this day and age when that land is inhabited.

If you're against working with resolution 242 for peace, then you're also against a 2 state solution because the framework for a 2 state solution begins with resolution 242.

If you think that arrangement will never work, (and you're not the only one) then the only alternative left is a One Secular Democratic State. Give Palestinians the right to vote and Israeli citizenship. That might be the only option left (aside from kicking them all out).

Re: Resolution 242

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Originally posted by Palestinian If you think that arrangement will never work, (and you're not the only one) then the only alternative left is a One Secular Democratic State. Give Palestinians the right to vote and Israeli citizenship. That might be the only option left (aside from kicking them all out).

Yeah we touched on that before... I don't see any problem with that personally, I'm just getting the impression that the Palestinians don't want it. Has it actually been brought up in any of the peace talks? I can't see any logical reason why Israel would refuse that arrangement, but I might be missing something.

Re: Re: Resolution 242

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Originally posted by DigiNut Yeah we touched on that before... I don't see any problem with that personally, I'm just getting the impression that the Palestinians don't want it. Has it actually been brought up in any of the peace talks? I can't see any logical reason why Israel would refuse that arrangement, but I might be missing something.

There are more Palestinians than Israelis. Israelis want a *Jewish* state, and feel that now that they finally have obtained one they will not risk its existence by becoming a minority. There was a thread on this topic a while back, and I seem to remember that at least TranceGiant and Yoepus were very much opposed to the idea.
I'd say that Heinz' idea is quite good (and, incidentally, also the one the road map is built on). However, it is not obvious how to divide (or whether to divide) Jerusalem: Palestinians have generally agreed to give up their demands for rights of refugees to return, and Israelis have generally agreed to leave the occupied territories. When it gets to the triple-holy city of Jerusalem things come to a dead end, though.

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There are more Palestinians than Israelis. Israelis want a *Jewish* state, and feel that now that they finally have obtained one they will not risk its existence by becoming a minority. There was a thread on this topic a while back, and I seem to remember that at least TranceGiant and Yoepus were very much opposed to the idea. I'd say that Heinz' idea is quite good (and, incidentally, also the one the road map is built on). However, it is not obvious how to divide (or whether to divide) Jerusalem: Palestinians have generally agreed to give up their demands for rights of refugees to return, and Israelis have generally agreed to leave the occupied territories. When it gets to the triple-holy city of Jerusalem things come to a dead end, though.

One solution to that would be that Jerusalem be declared an open and international city. No borders. No claims on territory by either side. Each side can have their holy sites, and anybody can visit them. Palistine, after creating their own state, then with israel, form their borders, make concessions, withdraw to original borders, as Palestinean said, the isreali military and settlers go back "home". Then Jerusalem be declared an open and international city. Jerusalem would become its own state, jointly governed by the Israeli's with the jewish issues, and the Palistineans with theirs. Jerusalem would be like Washington DC, which belongs to no state, and is essentially its own state, WHILE belonging tim the USA. Jerusalem would still belong to both Palistine and Isreal.

Yes well you're all thinking rationally with goals of peaceful co-existence. Unfortunately those ideals are not the objectives of a certain minority of extremists on both sides ... so good luck acheiving anything at all. Count on them to propogate the tit-for-tat crises for quite a long time ...

The Dream

The idea of Jerusalem as an international city might be accepted by both sides, I'm not sure about Israelis though. Unfortunately Jerusalem is not the biggest obstacle as Trancaholic said but the Right of Return is the biggest and most difficult issue.

There are 5 to 6 million Palestinian Refugees all around the world and I think 3 million in poverty refugee camps. Most of the ones in the refugee camps want to return to pre 48 lands (Israel proper). A friend of mine was working in Shatila over the summer and in the schools when the children would be asked about their dreams or to draw a picture of their dreams they would draw their return to thier villages.

UN Resolution 194 states that Refugees have the right to return to their land where they left from or be fairly compensated. And they have the choice of either one.

Problem: if Israel accepts 194, refugees would come to Israel and outnumber the Jews. Result: Arabs would have an advantage at the vote and they would most likely vote for one democratic state in all of pre 48 Palestine. Israelis want Israel to remain a Jewish state with majority Jews so they refuse to accept 194 and implement international law. Even if some refugees return it would compromise the existence of a Jewish state so I don't think Israel will ever accept the right of return not even part of it. Especially since now it faces a demographic problem cause the Palestinians in Israel and around it are having more kids and outnumbering Jews as we speak.

The right of return is one reason Arafat didn't come to a conclusion with the Israelis during the peace process. It's also why refugees hate arafat because they believe he would sell them out if he discarded their right to return.

An interesting point that someone stated recently was that when Oslo was signed, Arafat became a representative of 3.3 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and that's 1/3 of the world's Palestinian population. He ceased to represent the Palestinian refugees (which was his main struggle before the first intifada) and ceased to represent the Palestinians who live in Israel. At the same time he accepted Israel as the representative of world jewry. All Jews in the world.

To sum it up: Israel becomes representative of all Jews in world; Arafat becomes representative of 1/3 Palestinians in the world.

That's why so many Palestinians not in Gaza and West Bank hate him.

This is the most difficult situation and the one biggest obstacle to peace. Convincing Israelis to accept a one secular democratic state with the right of return is a dream. This is the challenge. We want to live with you, do you want to live with us? You could live on the west bank and gaza that way too. You would be the minority but I will be the first one to fight for your minority rights. After all, I'de remain from the smallest religious minority. But it would be fulfilling democracy and justice. After that resolution, the rest of the Arab puppet regimes will be in crises. The brutal dictators and monarch cocksuckers will see the perfect middle eastern state and their people will begin to demand the same. That's when we target the rest of the Arab governments, crush them, and call for democracy. That's when the rest of the Arabs will wake up and say "Look at Palestine/Israel! Look at the dream that was acheived! Look at democracy! We Want The Same! And We Won't Settle For Less! The people, united, will never be defeated!

Solve the refugee issue, and you've solved the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Re: The Dream

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Originally posted by Palestinian There are 5 to 6 million Palestinian Refugees all around the world and I think 3 million in poverty refugee camps. Most of the ones in the refugee camps want to return to pre 48 lands (Israel proper). A friend of mine was working in Shatila over the summer and in the schools when the children would be asked about their dreams or to draw a picture of their dreams they would draw their return to thier villages. . . . The right of return is one reason Arafat didn't come to a conclusion with the Israelis during the peace process. It's also why refugees hate arafat because they believe he would sell them out if he discarded their right to return.

Really?

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'Riot' over Palestinian poll The issue of refugees will be a stumbling block in any talks Only a small minority of Palestinian refugees would seek to return to live in Israel if allowed under a peace agreement, a controversial survey suggests. Eminent Palestinian political scientist Dr Kahil Shikaki was pushed, shoved and pelted with eggs as he released details of the research by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research. Its poll found only 10% of respondents in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon would wish to rebuild their homes under Israeli rule - a finding challenging existing Israeli and Palestinian perceptions. The controversial "right of return" issue will be a key part of negotiations if the current "road map" peace plan leads to renewed talks on solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even dovish Israelis reject risking a mass influx of Palestinians to a country already populated by 5.5 million Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. The passions the issue arouses were made clear when Dr Shikaki called a news conference to present his findings. About 200 Palestinian refugee activists stormed his Ramallah office on Sunday, smashing furniture, throwing eggs and assaulting Dr Shikaki and some other members of staff. "We are here to announce that our right of return is a sacred right," said a leaflet distributed by the protesters. "We will resist any attempt to sabotage our right of return." 'Skewed questions' Dr Shikaki's research centre polled 4,500 refugee families in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and Jordan. He said 95% of respondents insisted that Israel recognise the right of return as a moral principle. But many were surprisingly flexible on practical arrangements, says the BBC's Barbara Plett in Jerusalem. Only 10% demanded permanent residence in Israel and more than half said they would accept instead compensation and homes in the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO's refugee department said the study did not accurately reflect attitudes in the camps. Some Palestinian analysts criticised the way the questions were posed, saying they were skewed to get answers that gave up the right of return in practice. Divisions Meanwhile, the dispute between Yasser Arafat and the Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, appears to have been patched up following a meeting on Monday evening at Mr Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah. It was the first time the two Palestinian leaders had sat down face to face since Mr Abbas offered to resign from the Central Committee of Yasser Arafat's Fatah Movement last week. According to Palestinian Information Minister Nabil Amr, both Mr Arafat and Fatah's Central Committee have offered their full support to the prime minister. The issue of freeing Palestinian prisoners held by Israel had been a crucial point of contention within the Palestinian leadership. And it has almost brought the peace process to a halt after Israel agreed last week to release less than five percent of the 6,000 incarcerated in Israeli jails. Israel accuses Mr Arafat of fomenting terrorism and impeding the efforts of his moderate premier to end the violence. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3065299.stm

Another one of those issues adopted out of "principle" by extremists ...

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Its poll found only 10% of respondents in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon would wish to rebuild their homes under Israeli rule - a finding challenging existing Israeli and Palestinian perceptions.

I can understand how many palestinians wouldnt want to return to Israel if this happened.

But if they were ruled by an equivalent Arab ratio in the knesset im sure they would want a right of return.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King I can understand how many palestinians wouldnt want to return to Israel if this happened. But if they were ruled by an equivalent Arab ratio in the knesset im sure they would want a right of return.

But the reality of the situation is that it's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. The equivalent would be an Israeli leadership role in the Palestinian authority. If a bunch of Israelis were a part of Arafat's security force or had a role in passing Palestinian laws would Israelis be more comfortable with a PA state? Yes of course ... but that's not the issue. What is the key point of the study is that the right of return is not as crucial of an issue as the extremists make it out to be. Do the extremists make it such an issue for the sake of the refugees? No, the refugees have spoken. The extremists make it a key issue out of principal and because it takes peace talks completely off the table (in my opinion). Much like Arafat to a certain degree, the extremists place their concerns over the concerns of the people they claim to represent.

what the controversial survey found doesn't change anything though. It's findings are irrelevant. It's actually a good thing that most refugees don't want to come back to Israel. This is more reason to accept the Right of Return. Whatever the percentage, it still remains a right that cannot be denied to them. They could instead choose to be compensated of course. The fact is Palestinians will not let go of the right of return.

I highly disagree with the arguement that it's the extremists who are pushing for the right of return. I'll let you know that the factions such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't give a shit about the right of return because they have their own shit to worry about like the military occupation on their ground. Extremists have nothing to do with this. In fact, go to the nearest university and look for Palestinian students. Most of them are refugees who want to return. Are they extremist? I have friends who are refugees. In fact, most Palestinians I know are refugees, I'm one of the very few who isn't. Are they extremist? They want to go back. The survey says 10%. Is it the number that matters? Every refugee has a right to choose. This isn't a right where you take majority choice and then implement it on every refugee. Everyone has their individual choice.

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Originally posted by Palestinian what the controversial survey found doesn't change anything though. It's findings are irrelevant. It's actually a good thing that most refugees don't want to come back to Israel. This is more reason to accept the Right of Return. Whatever the percentage, it still remains a right that cannot be denied to them. They could instead choose to be compensated of course. The fact is Palestinians will not let go of the right of return.

The findings are irrelevant? The fact that so few desire that right is additional reasoning to pursue such a concession to a greater degree??? I'm beginning to understand why there's been no progress in the middle east. Well let's examine this situation logically ... if few refugees disire concession A in the place of concession x, y, and z it would be in the favor of the palestinian people to compromise on concession A, which they really didn't care about, in order to acheive the concessions that mattered to them the most, x, y, and z. The fact that concession A is championed by those affected the least or by those who do not represent the majority reflects poorly on the cause in general.

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I highly disagree with the arguement that it's the extremists who are pushing for the right of return. I'll let you know that the factions such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't give a shit about the right of return because they have their own shit to worry about like the military occupation on their ground. Extremists have nothing to do with this.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad care nothing of the issue? That's somewhat surprising since the right of return is a principle part of their platform.

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In fact, go to the nearest university and look for Palestinian students. Most of them are refugees who want to return. Are they extremist? I have friends who are refugees. In fact, most Palestinians I know are refugees, I'm one of the very few who isn't. Are they extremist? They want to go back.

I never stated that all refugees who want to go back are extremist. That would be an unscientific generalization. However, I would state that the majority of refugees do not desire the right of return as evidenced by the Palestinain poll unless that poll was scientifically flawed. It doesn't matter how many people you know who desire the right to return ... what if I knew one more palestinain than you who didn't want that right? Is that indicative of all Palestinans? Of course not, it's not a random sample.

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The survey says 10%. Is it the number that matters? Every refugee has a right to choose. This isn't a right where you take majority choice and then implement it on every refugee. Everyone has their individual choice.

The right of refugees to return to their homes is an inalienable right now? Ok, well then what of the rights of the occidental jews who were displaced from virtually all of the middle east when the conflict started? Do they all possess a right of return? What of the jews who owned land in Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, etc., do they too possess that right which are protected from government agreements? In accordance with this line of reasoning what right does a government have to make a decision for ANY of its citizens?

Like I said, everyone has a CHOICE INDIVIDUALLY. You can't negate the right of return based on majority opinion. And yes, all Jews who were kicked out or left from Arab countries also have a right to return. I never said they didn't. This is about coexistence.

If you allow me to make a prediction, I think that refugees right now have lost hope and that's why they can't imagine going back to their land. But if they are allowed to return, I think it will be an awakening for them and they will say it's too good to be true and then go back. Especially if you have a one state solution, then obviously they won't have anything to lose by going back. This is especially true if they are aware that once they go back they can actually create one state out of historic Palestine. You also have to remember that they see Jews as their mortal enemies. If things got better, they might change their views and decide to live with them. There are many factors here to consider. A statistical study doesn't tell you these things. You can't give away the right of return. There are thousands of organizations fighting to get it. The Palestinians will never let it go. This is as much reality as Israel's unwillingness to let go of the Jewish State.

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Originally posted by Palestinian ...And yes, all Jews who were kicked out or left from Arab countries also have a right to return.

Clearly they don't have the "right" of return - if you think they should, then why hasn't it ever been given to them?

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...they see Jews as their mortal enemies. If things got better, they might change their views and decide to live with them.

Confusing cause and effect here, I think... the whole Jewish/Arab conflict practically goes back to Biblical times.

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There are thousands of organizations fighting to get it.

Thousands eh? Let's see you list 100. Even 20.

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The Palestinians will never let it go. This is as much reality as Israel's unwillingness to let go of the Jewish State.

Very true. The Palestinians want an Arab state and the Israelis want a Jewish state. The difference is, the Israelis are in power right now. Not to mention that there are already 50 other Arab states which, in actual fact, are all small pieces of what "Palestine" used to be.

The "Jewish State" of Israel is a peanut in a football field of Arab states - why do you THINK they don't want to give up what little they have?

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Confusing cause and effect here, I think... the whole Jewish/Arab conflict practically goes back to Biblical times.

true true. ever read thwe story of david and goliath. what was goliath? a "philistine" are these people the descendants of palistine?
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and to the issue of coexistance, and a state governed by both jews and palistineans. this will never happen. each side is radically intent on keeping their own state. i cant even concieve that this will ever happen. but i can concieve of each side having their own states. but israel is too stubborn to let that happen

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Originally posted by Palestinian ...This is especially true if they are aware that once they go back they can actually create one state out of historic Palestine

HA!

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Originally posted by Heinz true true. ever read thwe story of david and goliath. what was goliath? a "philistine" are these people the descendants of palistine?

Please don't confuse today�s Palestinians with the biblical Philistines! Many make that error, and some even try and use it to legitimize what we today call the "Palestinians."

Here is a link the clearly displays the difference between the two:
Just Who Are the "Palestinians"?

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Originally posted by Heinz and to the issue of coexistence, and a state governed by both Jews and Palestinians. this will never happen. each side is radically intent on keeping their own state. i cant even concieve that this will ever happen. but i can concieve of each side having their own states. but israel is too stubborn to let that happen

Israel is too what? Israel has repeatedly supported plans for a sovereign Palestinian state under the condition (which of course was not met) to halt all terrorist activity and eventually dismantle the Palestinian terror infrastructure (who we all know is lead by Arafat). Arafat has repeatedly lied, played games and quite frankly is doing the same thing as Saddam Hussein used to when he was in power. ALL leaders and key members in the mid-east peace process know that the first obstacle towards peace is Arafat.

Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of the European Union and Muslim/Arab world�s citizens' hate Jews more then they wish for coexistence - one where the Jews are actually allowed to live.

Heinz, you've only been here a few weeks or so (in the political discussions forum) and I'm beginning to see your opinions shape differently... I'd say for the worse. Dig deeper not only into one side, but check them both out equally and unless you have preconceived view towards Jews/Israelis', you'll understand things more clearly in regards to the conflict affecting Israel in a deadly way.

if u can gain conclusions from all my posts in this topic and others. its that, BOTH sides are too stubborn for anything. when one side is ready for peace. the other isnt. or vice versa. arafat should be austed from power, and so should sharon. both are nothing but warriors fighting each other a warriors way.

is three months a long time?? ive been here since early november, in most forums, but the political one, ive have been getting very involved in since mid december.

if u can gain conclusions from all my posts in this topic and others. its that, BOTH sides are too stubborn for anything. when one side is ready for peace. the other isnt. or vice versa. arafat should be austed from power, and so should sharon. both are nothing but warriors fighting each other a warriors way.
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Please don't confuse today�s Palestinians with the biblical Philistines! Many make that error, and some even try and use it to legitimize what we today call the "Palestinians."

i never said the philistines were the same as palistineans. i asked if they were...your answer is no. ill read what u got there as a link
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is three months a long time?? ive been here since early november, in most forums, but the political one, ive have been getting very involved in since mid december.

Coexistence

Jews who were expelled or left from Arab countries DO have a right to return to their Arab countries. Zionist scholars continously make that claim as well. The current dictators and monarchs of the Arab world are not implementing their right to return, which is disgusting.
You might think 'well they don't want to return'. Nevertheless they have that right.

You're too pessimistic about coexistence. Before the emergence of Zionism, Jews were living in Palestine with Muslims and Christians. Addressing the Anglo-American Commission on Palestine in 1946, Chaim Weizmann, head of the World Zionist Organization and first president of Israel stated: "I would not like to do any injustice. The Muslim world had treated the Jews with considerable tolerance. The Ottoman Empire (of which the Arabs were a large part) received the Jews with open arms when they were driven out of Spain and Europe and the Jews should never forget that." Claiming that they cannot coexist by saying that the Jewish/Arab conflict goes back to Biblical Times isn't very informed.

50 Arab states? 22 or 23 but not 50.

Illan, Palestinians are the descendants of the Philistines and the Arabs. The Islamic invasion of Palestine in the 7th century brought the Arabs into the land where they mixed with the Caananites and all the other tribes. Especially when you think about the Christians of Palestine. They didn't come from the Arab world because they weren't part of the Islamic invasion. They were there from before and then mixed with the Arabs when the Arabs arrived. That's why they're called the "Living Stones". They witnessed Jesus and his ministry and converted to Christianity.

Dismantling Palestinian terror infrastructure requires the dismantlement of the Israeli terror infrastructure i.e. IDF operations and behaviour. Israel has also never supported a SOVEREIGN Palestinian state. When you want to give someone a state you have to ask 'what kind of state?' that's where the problem with the peace process lies. None of the states negotiated were ever sovereign.

Re: Coexistence

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Originally posted by Palestinian 50 Arab states? 22 or 23 but not 50.

And how many Jewish states?

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Dismantling Palestinian terror infrastructure requires the dismantlement of the Israeli terror infrastructure i.e. IDF operations and behaviour.

Ah, it's the old "you first" attitude. Of course you realize that if both sides take that attitude, they end up deadlocked.

Besides which, dismantling the Palestinian terror infrastructure is a much more onerous task than dismantling the IDF. The IDF is part of the state and could easily be put to sleep at a moment's notice. The Palestinian terrorists, however, are led by several disconnected extremist factions and inviduals and would actually have to be tracked down and put away. Perhaps the Palestinian "state" might like to take *some* initiative and root out *some* of its terrorist factions to prove its sincerity?

well it's not 50, diginut. arguing for a jewish state because of the numerous arab states is like saying let's make nigeria a jewish state because there are many african states. how pathetic and low.

it's not the 'you first' attitude. Israel is the occupier and palestinians are the occupied. Israel has a responsibility to respect the human rights of the occupied. It doesn't. It makes people angry and bent on revenge.

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Originally posted by Palestinian well it's not 50, diginut. arguing for a jewish state because of the numerous arab states is like saying let's make nigeria a jewish state because there are many african states. how pathetic and low.

Pathetic and low, perhaps, because Nigeria is not ALREADY a Jewish state, but Israel is. We aren't talking about forcing people out to make a new Jewish state, we're talking about keeping the ONE Jewish state there is instead of letting it become one of 23 Arab states in the same area. Like I said, a peanut in a football field, why make such a big deal over it? Let the Jews have their tiny little space if it's so bloody important to them.

Well, actually, I know why the Palestinians care so much - but it serves no purpose to say it because it will be dismissed as lies and generalization.

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it's not the 'you first' attitude. Israel is the occupier and palestinians are the occupied. Israel has a responsibility to respect the human rights of the occupied. It doesn't. It makes people angry and bent on revenge.

Wow that makes sense... not. It would seem logical that the ones who do NOT have military power (i.e. the "occupied") are the ones that should maybe relax a little. It's not the responsibility of the "occupier" to protect the human rights of those that are killing them - and yes I know what you're going to say, only a handful of Palestinians are actually killers, but only a handful of Israelis are killers as well. It works both ways.

If Palestine really wants Israel to root out their military cruelty, maybe they should take the initiative and root out their own terrorist groups, instead of supporting them financially and fighting a PR war with Israel. The problem here is that you want Israel to take the INITIATIVE on everything when Palestine hasn't taken any INITIATIVE of its own. Someone has to get the ball rolling - how can you legitimately just EXPECT Israel to do it and not Palestine? How can you reasonably apply this double standard?

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