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-- What is one Israeli life worth?
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whats an Austrilian?

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Originally posted by tathi whats an Austrilian?

an Aussie who uses trillian ?

ah no wonder they wouldn't let him into the country

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Originally posted by Izzy the whole casualties of war arguement is completely pointless, it shows nothing regardling the morality of either side nor which side is more deserving of praise In WW2 the German suffered more casualties then the Americans and there were more civilians killed on axis grouds then there were on the allied areas, does this mean that the Allies were more evil or that the axis were better because they suffered more casualties? No. Most of the fighting that exsists is done on palestinian territories, hence we can see a logical conclusion that more palestinians would be killed, does this imply that israel is morally inferior? No.

First of all, the Allies suffered more casualties. You know, the allies were more than the USA. There was one country which suffered the most casualties than all, and it was an ally (hint: USSR).

And of course the fighting is done in palestinian territories. Are you kidding? You guys invaded the place, what do you expect?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Yes, but this is the fallacy of statistics, they tell you nothing about the context. First, what is the definition of a child? Someone under 18 I suspect --- thats a very broad range, considering many suicide bombers were "children".

http://www.ifamericansknew.org//stats/children1.html



185 Palestinian schools* have been shelled or fired upon by Israelis and 2 Israeli schools** have been fired upon by Palestinians since September 29, 2000.


* This number is from the Health Development Information and Policy Institute, an independent non-profit Palestinian organization. HDIP is devoted to policy research and planning regarding the Palestinian health care system in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. HDIP is devoted to advocating appropriate health and development policies, and to building a democratic Palestinian civil society.

** This number is from All For Israel, a group that provides funds to injured and killed Israelis and their families

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Second, the manner in which Israeli children were killed - babies shot at point blank as a terrorist infiltrates civilian houses - as opposed to children killed by careless fire, is much more morally startilling and so it makes sense there are more headlines about it.

Ha! Who told you it was careless fire? Were does it say that? And repeated headlines?



http://www.ifamericansknew.org//stats/playground.html

"A bomb, which may have been planted by Jewish extremists, exploded in a West Bank school playground yesterday, injuring 20 Palestinian children." By Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem, from the UK Guardian, April 10, 2003

So, is this morally right?

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Originally posted by borron First of all, the Allies suffered more casualties. You know, the allies were more than the USA. There was one country which suffered the most casualties than all, and it was an ally (hint: USSR).

obviously you missed the point, which was that causilties rates show nothing of who is the better side.

more north vietnamese were killed then the americans, does that make them better people?
more southern state americans died in the civil war then the northern americans, does that make the south more just?

Re: What is one Israeli life worth?

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Originally posted by Yoepus What is one Israeli life worth? Exactly 400 Palestinians, 23 Lebanese, and 12 Arab lives. Proof: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...st_prisoners_dc http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3426503.stm ---- Sad, I always believe one should never negotiate with such terrorist, what are your views? Two of the Lebanese to be released are high-ranking terrorists.

THE HELL WITH ISRAEL!!

great first post

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more north vietnamese were killed then the americans, does that make them better people?

It is widely accepted that America was in the wrong over Vietnam...

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185 Palestinian schools* have been shelled or fired upon by Israelis and 2 Israeli schools** have been fired upon by Palestinians since September 29, 2000

And lets not forget that Jewish terrorist group (kahane chai or summat like that) that were caught loading a bomb between an East Jerusalem school and hospital that they had set to go off at 8:30 as the children would be arriving at school...

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Second, the manner in which Israeli children were killed - babies shot at point blank as a terrorist infiltrates civilian houses - as opposed to children killed by careless fire, is much more morally startilling and so it makes sense there are more headlines about it.

Sorry but there must be dozens of reports where the IDF have sht children on purpose!

(Oh and somebody wanted the source that says 600 israeli deaths and 3000 palestinian deaths...Here it is (from a Jewish history site) )

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Originally posted by George Smiley (Oh and somebody wanted the source that says 600 israeli deaths and 3000 palestinian deaths...Here it is (from a Jewish history site) )

Ah, yes... I'm not really familiar with you, your posts, or your opinions, but I find it funny how some people will use facts and figures from Jewish/Israeli sites whenever it suits their purpose, but ignore the rest of what's on those sites or claim it has no credibility.

Do you believe in the credibility of that site as a source? If so, you should also be taking into account the other points it makes.

Once again, I will point out that casualty rates are fairly meaningless as to right or wrong. It's to be expected, when a much weaker military power refuses to stop attacking a much stronger one, that the weaker one will end up getting more of its citizens killed.

We remembered, Iraq, Beirut, Palestine, and the millions of Arabs Who perished under American-Israeli aggression over the last 50 years, and that bitter sweet feeling would come back �hell, let them feel one day what we were feeling for half a century because of them�, you would hear that everywhere, and above all places in your own mind.
We started wondering, �what is going on with us� and almost everybody would answer � look how far did they bring us� everybody also said � they were killing us, humiliating us and oppressing us for so long that we lost a part of our humanity, that part that cherishes human life unconditionally�. We tried to understand our reactions, why didn�t we mourn the dead, why didn�t we feel as terrified as the rest of the world did? Well maybe because, no one mourned our dead, no one stood even a second of silence for the half a million (and some say one million) Iraqi children slaughtered (albeit very neatly) by the American-British embargo. They taught us by killing us over and over again that human life is so cheap, that thousands and thousands of us scattered by their �smart� bombs are nothing but regrettable �collateral damage�, regrettable but acceptable.
�Make no mistake� we are no heart-bleeding softies wanting to save the dolphins, and we do not have a �turn the other cheek� value making us feel guilty whenever we don�t (Europe is so imprisoned in its guilt feelings since it NEVER turned the other cheek), our culture and religion both say � you hit me on my cheek, I give you a blow in your face. You stay out of my way, I will not bother you�. But at the same time, we have a very deeply rooted value, both religious and cultural, that a �soul� is sacred and should never be killed unless in self-defense or when executing a criminal murderer.
Our nation was not build through a process of genocide and ethnic cleansing like the United States or Israel. So the value of mass murder is not own to our heritage. Our heroes are not Indian-killing cowboys, or criminals like Begin, Shamir and Sharon, and we would not give a medal to someone after burning a whole city with all its men, women and children with an atomic bomb.
So whenever criminals among us (because like any nation of humans, us Arabs have also criminals among us) commit a horrible act of genocide or even a small attack against civilians, we are unable to behave like Americans and Israelis and applaud it feeling that it is a heroic act. We might applaud it yes, because once again I remind you that we are humans, we bare grudges and we are vulnerable to the seduction of revenge. But while applauding we will be feeling bad, and knowing how terrible it is.

Thank you for that lovely piece of propaganda, Dunya.

If you could present a cogent or at least coherent argument, that would be even better.

I was going to post a sermon on Belgian history Dunya, but then realised that you are Arabic living in Belgium or of Arabic descent born in Belgium so I'll spare you the history lecture on Belgium in the world.

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Ah, yes... I'm not really familiar with you, your posts, or your opinions, but I find it funny how some people will use facts and figures from Jewish/Israeli sites whenever it suits their purpose, but ignore the rest of what's on those sites or claim it has no credibility. Do you believe in the credibility of that site as a source? If so, you should also be taking into account the other points it makes. Once again, I will point out that casualty rates are fairly meaningless as to right or wrong. It's to be expected, when a much weaker military power refuses to stop attacking a much stronger one, that the weaker one will end up getting more of its citizens killed.

Nice, you totally ignore any of my points and instead pick on a little 'aside' at the end of my post as I assume that is the only part of my post you could actually argue against?

You are not familiar with any of my posts/opinions as I am new and this is probly only my 20th post btw

On who is in the right/wrong (and this may help you to becoe a little more familiar with my views)...

I think suicide bombers are in the wrong. I think the Israeli government is in the wrong. I wouldn't cross the street to piss on either of them if they were on fire. I dont think murder solves anything. However, I do believe that less Palestinians would feel the need to murder Israelis if Israel ended the occupation and withdrew to 1967 borders. They could then build any size wall they wanted to as long as they stuck to those internationally recognised borders. (Obviously that would see hundreds of Palestinians out of a job so an end to the occupation must coincide with massive external aid to help build up some kind of solid infrastructure to a new Palestinian state which I would expect the US, the EU and Israel to foot the bill)

If I had to say that one side was in the wrong (or more like who is more in the wrong) then yes, I say Israel (as does most of the world bar Israel and America!) because I believe the ball is in their court and they can do the most to resolve the MEPP...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Nice, you totally ignore any of my points and instead pick on a little 'aside' at the end of my post as I assume that is the only part of my post you could actually argue against?

Nice, you totally ignore the issue at hand and instead start whining about which state is doing more to resolve the "MEPP?"

Besides which, considering that Israel just traded in the ratio of 400:1, I can hardly see how this one-sided arrangement is supporting evidence for your case that the Israeli government isn't trying a LOT harder than the Palestinian Authority (or the Palestinian extremist movements, if you're going to insist that they're separate entities from the Authority).

Seems like I've been saying this to you a lot, but seeing as how you're still a n00b I'll be patient - your argument is irrelevant to the topic at hand - stick to the topic.

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Originally posted by borron I have no subconscious ressentments against it, it's not like a israeli raped me in my childhood. Why do i hate it? I just feel sad by the things i see in tv everyday. I feel sad when i see palestinian houses being destroyed, kids against tanks, mothers crying... Believe me, i feel sad the same way when they pass images of a restaurant in the middle of a israeli city with all those good looking, good dressing people dead or crippled... but do your maths, what happens more often and in what situation there are more people affected?

Then I suppose you also hate Palestinians, Russians, Americans, Germans, the British, French, Spain, Polish, and just about every other country in the world that's been at war? I'm sorry, but I think you're a bit naive if you honestly think that wars don't include the killing of innocent people and mothers crying.

In WWII for example, the U.S. went on a bombing spree of RESIDENTIAL German areas for it seems as though no other reason than revenge. There was nothing in that area that could benefit from bombing. Thousands, perhaps millions of lives were killed for payback, and the US didn't even know/pay attention to the fact of death camps at the time. Death camps weren't high on the priority list until towards the end of the war.

How about you do your math and pay attention to the fact that in any war you're going to get pointless and thousands of deaths.

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You are wrong here. My sister doesnt even look middle eastern and she was stopped becuase they found out she was part iranian in decent. Weve lived in Canada our whole lives. Why was she interrogated by Americans? Becuase of her race...the region where she came from was NORTH AMERICA.

As for this and the 48 year old mother that got stopped, how is this not proof of random searches? I'm 19, a born American, lived in Poland three to four months out of every year, have an American passport as well as a Polish and got searched three seperate times on the way to ONE flight.

The searches are done randomly so as to prevent allegations of discrimination. Mind you, this process has worked, I myself was witness to when they searched a 70 year old woman and found items in her luggage that were dangerous.

I'm not going to stand on a platform and say that there is no discrimination in the US, because of course there is, just as there is discrimination in any country. Please don't try and tell me that your country is any different!

I know we were attempting to get back to the issue with this thread, I just figured there were some things that needed to be said.

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Originally posted by anuneventrade Then I suppose you also hate Palestinians, Russians, Americans, Germans, the British, French, Spain, Polish, and just about every other country in the world that's been at war? I'm sorry, but I think you're a bit naive if you honestly think that wars don't include the killing of innocent people and mothers crying. In WWII for example, the U.S. went on a bombing spree of RESIDENTIAL German areas for it seems as though no other reason than revenge. There was nothing in that area that could benefit from bombing. Thousands, perhaps millions of lives were killed for payback, and the US didn't even know/pay attention to the fact of death camps at the time. Death camps weren't high on the priority list until towards the end of the war.

Oh yes? And what? Was that an argument reinforcing my point of view, or did i just understood it wrongly?

Every war has it's innocent victims, sure, many are because of revenge, sure (soldiers are humans too, they feel hate).

So, does it make this war more right? The fact that every other war as innocent victims? Come on, put yourself in those people places (both israeli and palestinian). People like you who talk about wars and killing as something natural for "for self-defense"/payback and sit in their fat asses in front of the computer - that's the big problem. If you were in the middle of the conflict, on either side, you would be the first to shit on your pants.

And yes, i also don't like Russia because of the Chechen war, but any of the other countries you've mentioned, they're not at war (maybe the british, but i see Blair as Bush's little doggie). The fact that you are mentioning past wars doesn't even make you worthy of a response.

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Originally posted by borron Oh yes? And what? Was that an argument reinforcing my point of view, or did i just understood it wrongly? Every war has it's innocent victims, sure, many are because of revenge, sure (soldiers are humans too, they feel hate).

Yes, that is my point. If you're going to hate against a country that kills innocent people, then why are you hating only against Israilies?

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So, does it make this war more right? The fact that every other war as innocent victims? Yes, i also don't like Russia because of the Chechen war, but any of the other countries you've mentioned, they're not at war. I see Blair as Bush's doggie, pretty much like the other PM's of the countries you've mentioned (countries with the strongest military presence in Iraq, so i'm assuming you are refering to that - unless you are refering to past conflicts and in that case you aren't even worthy enough of a response). My country did send troops to iraq too, but i also see my PM as Bush's little doggie (there's a famous cartoon which depicts my PM takin' up the ass from Bush).

Are you so blind as to see that I was commenting on the fact that you singled out Israilies as being the only ones wrong in the war? What about Palistinians? What about Americans? Ffs, if you're going to bitch about involvement in the war, then don't bitch only about one partner involved in the war. There are many countries involved in this war. I suggest if you're so bothered by the deaths of innocents, then you begin to hate the other countries as well.

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People like you who talk about wars and killing as something natural for "for self-defense"/payback and sit in their fat asses in front of the computer - that's the big problem. If you were in the middle of the conflict, you would be the first to shit on your pants.

At you saying I sit my "fat ass" in front of a computer. I think that being 5 11 and 130 lbs hardly warrants my ass as "fat".

And where in my post did I say at all that it was something natural? Get a grip. I clearly stated that innocent deaths were a fact of war. Nor did I say anything about being in the middle of conflict. Do you think I haven't seen the tragedies of this war? My childhood friends being sent off to fight in a war they don't believe in with the true reason for why they are going changed by their officers daily?

Newsflash borron, I am not an ignorant individual, nor are others in this forum. Please don't generalize when speaking to me and implying that I know nothing.

If you read my posts correctly this time, perhaps you will see the points I am trying to get across. INNOCENT death, is a PART of war. EVERY country that is involved in the WAR, will be the cause of INNOCENT deaths. If you are going to blatantly HATE against a country for the reasons you have given, which I quoted in my post above, then you CLEARLY need to HATE against EVERY country that is at war at this point and time.

Note: All caps were given in emphasis in the hopes that perhaps if it were written in that manner you might open your eyes and read the post. In the post, I am not stating in any way or manner that this war is legitamate, or that innocent deaths in pasts wars should be forgiven/forgotten.

I changed a bit my original post after re-reading the one you post before mine. Please read it again.

As for hating the Palestinians, i'm not saying they're innocent. I just feel the Israelis are more guilty.

How do you expect things started? Arafat woke up one day and said "let's kill all israelis?"?

Violence has to start somewhere, and violence generates counter-violence. The suicide bombings, while an awful, inhuman, despicable thing, are a reaction. You are no different than those people - think like them. To do something as desperate and inhuman, think what would you have to suffer. That's why they do it. Suicide bombers are not animals, just desperate people who feel their lives will improve with their death.

And to answer your question, I do hate every country that goes into a war (usually the country that provokes it, but i can be both). I'm a pacifist, i have a hippy nature. Does that constitute a problem to you?

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Originally posted by borron I changed a bit my original post after re-reading the one you post before mine. Please read it again. As for hating the Palestinians, i'm not saying they're innocent. I just feel the Israelis are more guilty. How do you expect things started? Arafat woke up one day and said "let's kill all israelis?"? Violence has to start somewhere, and violence generates counter-violence. The suicide bombings, while an awful, inhuman, despicable thing, are a reaction. You are no different than those people - think like them. To do something as desperate and inhuman, think what would you have to suffer. That's why they do it. Suicide bombers are not animals, just desperate people who feel their lives will improve with their death. And to answer your question, I do hate every country that goes into a war (usually the country that provokes it, but i can be both). I'm a pacifist, i have a hippy nature. Does that constitute a problem to you?

*sigh* I have not the patience to continue on an argument with someone who is close minded and a generalist.

*Note* When I say close minded, I am saying that you look soley at the aspects of who started the war and you stated that you believe that they are the generators of all problems in war. Everyone who gets into a war gets blood on their hands, such things do not wash off. Retaliations are still acts of war. Retaliations still murder innocent people.

*Second Note* You are a pacifist and have a hippy nature? Yes, I suppose that's why you attacked my first post against your own opinion and generalized me as a "fat ass who sits in front of a computer and doesn't know anything about the tragedies of war"

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Originally posted by anuneventrade *sigh* I have not the patience to continue on an argument with someone who is close minded and a generalist. *Note* When I say close minded, I am saying that you look soley at the aspects of who started the war and you stated that you believe that they are the generators of all problems in war. Everyone who gets into a war gets blood on their hands, such things do not wash off. Retaliations are still acts of war. Retaliations still murder innocent people. *Second Note* You are a pacifist and have a hippy nature? Yes, I suppose that's why you attacked my first post against your own opinion and generalized me as a "fat ass who sits in front of a computer and doesn't know anything about the tragedies of war"

Sure, calling the other person close-minded is a good way to end an argument on top. I'll end it too cause from what i've read on your note, it seems you are repeating yourself over and over, not even considering my arguments.

On your second note, well i generalized, i'm sorry for that. But i'm tired of seeing that kind of arguments here - it may have been your first, but i've been reading much similar ones (on this thread too). If that makes me violent, then i'm a violent pacifist

And well, it really seems you know nothing about war! A country/people is attacked and you just expect people to sit in their asses crying? "hey everybody, let's not retaliate! They killed our sons and brothers, but retaliations murder innocent people!"

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Originally posted by borron The suicide bombings, while an awful, inhuman, despicable thing, are a reaction.

A reaction to what? You talk as though they got punched in the face and punched back, or watched someone kill their mothers. But a lot of these suicide bombers are perfectly normal healthy individuals, often with very bright futures, who've simply grown up thinking that blowing themselves up on a bus and taking 30 innocent people to the grave with them is the highest achievable honour in life.

These people don't even value their own lives - how can you say that they value the lives of others?

The Palestinian people may suffer greatly at the hands of Israel, but to call these suicide bombings acts of "revenge" is mind-boggling. They kill innocent people, including themselves, not people who did anything to them or their families.

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Originally posted by borron How do you expect things started? Arafat woke up one day and said "let's kill all israelis?"?

No, but that has been the goal of Hamas, which Arafat publicly supports, ever since its inception - the elimination of the state of Israel. Please don't say I need to prove that because it's basically at the top of their public statement.

And once again, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE THREAD!!!

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Originally posted by borron Sure, calling the other person close-minded is a good way to end an argument on top. I'll end it too cause from what i've read on your note, it seems you are repeating yourself over and over, not even considering my arguments.

You are repeating yourself as well. I did in fact consider and read your arguments, and I commented on them.

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On your second note, well i generalized, i'm sorry for that. But i'm tired of seeing that kind of arguments here - it may have been your first, but i've been reading much similar ones (on this thread too). If that makes me violent, then i'm a violent pacifist

If you're tired of seeing it, then do not post in this forum. This is a debate forum. Not everyone is going to agree with you.

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And well, it really seems you know nothing about war! A country/people is attacked and you just expect people to sit in their asses crying? "hey everybody, let's not retaliate! They killed our sons and brothers, but retaliations murder innocent people!"

Please show me at what point and time I said any of that. I was merely pointing out that your argument is illogical. You stated, and I'll quote you again,

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feel sad when i see palestinian houses being destroyed, kids against tanks, mothers crying... Believe me, i feel sad the same way when they pass images of a restaurant in the middle of a israeli city with all those good looking, good dressing people dead or crippled... but do your maths, what happens more often and in what situation there are more people affected?

Clearly, when I posted:

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I am not stating in any way or manner that this war is legitamate, or that innocent deaths in pasts wars should be forgiven/forgotten.

I did not say at any point in time that people should just "sit on their ass and cry". I was pointing out that your generalization that only the Israilies are at fault is incorrect, and biased.

At no point in time, did I say in any post, that retaliation is not to be expected nor followed through. Nor did I say that retaliation is not a part of war. I was clearly stating that the deaths of innocents are to be expected in any war.

I do know quite a bit about this war, and other wars. And for educational purposes only for you, I do know the tragedies of war considering most of my family were in death camps in WWII.

Please stop generalizing and misinterpreting my posts.

Diginut, I can't believe you don't think these are acts of revenge. How can you not think that? It's so obvious.

While i agree that some of the bombers may come from middle class families (if there is such thing in palestine...) and somewhat educated in a nationalistic way, most of them surely come from ruined families. You know, usually the suicide makes a contract with the organization which "sponsors" the bombing (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc) in which the family of the bomber gets a money compensation and sometimes even more (because the israelis perceived this, they usually destroy their parents home).

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Originally posted by anuneventrade If you're tired of seeing it, then do not post in this forum. This is a debate forum. Not everyone is going to agree with you.

I never said that i want everybody to agree with me. Now in your words, that's generalizing - i think you are abusing that word.

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I did not say at any point in time that people should just "sit on their ass and cry". I was pointing out that your generalization that only the Israilies are at fault is incorrect, and biased.

I never said i wasn't biased. As for being incorrect, don't say that, it depends on the point of view. There you go, generalizing again.

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At no point in time, did I say in any post, that retaliation is not to be expected nor followed through. Nor did I say that retaliation is not a part of war. I was clearly stating that the deaths of innocents are to be expected in any war.

SO, there's a retaliation. Innocents die. Innocents are expected to die in any war - repeating repeating repeating. I know that, i'm not dumb either, but i just think that kind of situation wouldn't exist if the occupation ended.

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I do know quite a bit about this war, and other wars. And for educational purposes only for you, I do know the tragedies of war considering most of my family were in death camps in WWII. Please stop generalizing and misinterpreting my posts.

I believe you, it seems you're polish and (probably) jew.


I want to clear something up - i do not endorse, support or think suicide bombings are right in any way - i just think they are a cause of something. What is not easy to determine, but as i've said before, i have a clue on that. But now i'm really repeating myself.

Borron, I told you how I can "not think" that they are acts of revenge. When people are brought up from birth thinking that it's an honour to blow themselves up in a store full of Israelis, then what you are going to get is people blowing themselves up in stores full of Israelis.

There is little else I can say to you except that you seem to be ignoring the real cause. Israel may cause their suffering, but the suicide bombings are not a direct consequence of that suffering; many people live in oppression most of their lives and do not end up violent. In fact, one would logically conclude that the average person growing up in such a situation would be very docile and tame.

Now can we please close this completely irrelevant side-issue? God, it seems like every time the Palestinians do something ridiculous and it gets reported on, someone needs to pipe up and say in their whiniest voice "Yeah but look at all the mean stuff the Israelis are doing!" TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT, PEOPLE!!

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