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-- So, evolution or creationism - the poll
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Originally posted by nic01445 My problem is who is he talking to? He is all by himself, and one day decides to create the universe. Why does he need to give a verbal command. anyway, why are we arguing about this?

He was commanding "nothing" into something. thats what he was talking to. and u people support the "big bang" theory, which is based on the development of nothing turning into something. so, right there, that is something that science ties into.

...and we are arguing about it because u are the one who asked the question. if u want to know why we are argueing about this, it may be because i have answered it. u just wont admit it. believe it or not.

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Originally posted by Heinz He was commanding "nothing" into something. thats what he was talking to. and u people support the "big bang" theory, which is based on the development of nothing turning into something. so, right there, that is something that science ties into.

Actually, from what I understand, the "Big Bang" theory doesn't explain how "nothing" became "something." The "Big Bang" theory is more of an extrapolation if you will. Recent (early 20th century and onwards) astronomical observations have shown the universe to be expanding. So the "Big Bang" theory states that, among other things, the universe used to be hot and dense.

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Originally posted by zarathustra So the "Big Bang" theory states that, among other things, the universe used to be hot and dense.

Kinda like Jessica Simpson eh?

(ba-da-pa!)

MrS

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Originally posted by Heinz just ask me any question....

If God is omnipotent, could he make a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it?

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Originally posted by astroboy If God is omnipotent, could he make a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it?

Do not put the Lord your God to the test. That would be the answer to your question.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Do not put the Lord your God to the test. That would be the answer to your question.

Actually the answer to his question would be either yes or no. Your answer wouldn't hold up in any formal debate, you'd just be told to either answer the question or retract your argument.

But who wants a formal debate... that might actually prevent people like Nessa from spewing out whatever garbage they can come up with on the spot. And that just wouldn't be any fun, would it.

Honestly, your narrow-mindedness has lost its comedic appeal. Joke's over. Time to come forward and admit you've just been yanking our chains and don't really believe all this crap that you say. I mean... it's impossible!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Honestly, your narrow-mindedness has lost its comedic appeal. Joke's over. Time to come forward and admit you've just been yanking our chains and don't really believe all this crap that you say. I mean... it's impossible!

dude, just read the bible. It has the answers to your questions. you'll be sorry on judgement day.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Do not put the Lord your God to the test. That would be the answer to your question.

very true.

Deuteronomy 6:16
Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.

Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

Luke 4:12
Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

there needs to be another option: "unknown, to be known"

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Deuteronomy 6:16 Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah. Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test. Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

So, do not question authority? Do not question who you take orders from? Do not question your role or task in life? Don't question the real truth of your existence?

What a bunch of BS. Why must you quote from the bible, can you not think for yourself?

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If God is omnipotent, could he make a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it?

lol

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Originally posted by Dmatrox there needs to be another option: "unknown, to be known" So, do not question authority? Do not question who you take orders from? Do not question your role or task in life? Don't question the real truth of your existence? What a bunch of BS. Why must you quote from the bible, can you not think for yourself? lol

lol, i am thinking for myself. and i choose eternal life over 80 years of nothing on earth. and that is thinking right there in itself.

the point of these scriptures is that, we all know that god is perfect. there is nothing at fault with him. he is better than the essence of perfection, we cannot even comprehend it.

my question to you is. do u question perfection?? do you?? if u do, then you yourself cannot think for yourself, but believe anything u hear from the peers around you.

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Originally posted by zarathustra Actually, from what I understand, the "Big Bang" theory doesn't explain how "nothing" became "something." The "Big Bang" theory is more of an extrapolation if you will. Recent (early 20th century and onwards) astronomical observations have shown the universe to be expanding. So the "Big Bang" theory states that, among other things, the universe used to be hot and dense.

that didnt make sense. but heres the big bang from what i know.

a large mass of matter (that SOMEHOW, unexplainably got there) was at the center of the universe. then it exploded, like a supernova. then, like a domino, SOMEHOW dust formed into planets, stars, and rocks.

then life as we know it formed, SOMEHOW from the dirt in the ground BILLIONS of years ago. really i believe the theory of evolution to be degrading to me, because its really saying i share a common ancestor with the dirt that i got on my shoe before i walked through my front door. AND, i also share a common ancestry with all animals, so i look at a roach, the theory of evolution tells me, me and that roach go a ways back. this is one of the reasons i dont believe in evolution. its degrading. its also just a theory. we arent certain without a doubt it happened. .....

creationism is obviously my belief because to those who believe in it, it is not theory, it is fact. and there is plenty of scientific data to support it. there are creationist scientist researching right now, scientific data that supports creationism.

ill provide a link later.....im too tired to search anything right now.....last post of the night...goodnight people

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Originally posted by Heinz lol, i am thinking for myself. and i choose eternal life over 80 years of nothing on earth. and that is thinking right there in itself. the point of these scriptures is that, we all know that god is perfect. there is nothing at fault with him. he is better than the essence of perfection, we cannot even comprehend it. my question to you is. do u question perfection?? do you?? if u do, then you yourself cannot think for yourself, but believe anything u hear from the peers around you.

Your question is: do i question perfection. I really don't understand what you mean by that. I don't beleive things are perfect however can be close to perfection, no body is perfect but may be close to perfection , machines are only as perfect as a human can make it, and nature is almost perfect. Evolution from genetic drift and natural selection creates divergence and does not lead to perfection, only a mix of diversity and uniqueness.

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if u do, then you yourself cannot think for yourself, but believe anything u hear from the peers around you.

That is anything but the truth. Many of my peers i know belong to a religion. Some find it wierd or hard to comprehend that i don't belong to a 'group' of people.

But like i said before, religion bring together a group of people but leads to a separation of global unity of humanity as a whole, which is a problem.

I choose not to belong to a religion even though i have been preached to as i beleive that their truth is only a perception of their own reality and may not reflect true truth. This my friend, is thinking for oneself. I attended a christian school for 1/3 of my schooling and i choose to think for myself instead wanting to be in a particular religion or group.

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and i choose eternal life over 80 years of nothing on earth. and that is thinking right there in itself.

Eternal life is make beleive. Now lets turn the tables here. Are you thinking for yourself or has the church made you beleive that eternal life exists beyond this life? You beleive that eternal life exists beyond this earth. Sorry dude, but right now, this is heaven, right here on earth. You have one life to live, so live it.

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Originally posted by Heinz that didnt make sense. but heres the big bang from what i know. a large mass of matter (that SOMEHOW, unexplainably got there) was at the center of the universe. then it exploded, like a supernova. then, like a domino, SOMEHOW dust formed into planets, stars, and rocks. then life as we know it formed, SOMEHOW from the dirt in the ground BILLIONS of years ago. really i believe the theory of evolution to be degrading to me, because its really saying i share a common ancestor with the dirt that i got on my shoe before i walked through my front door. AND, i also share a common ancestry with all animals, so i look at a roach, the theory of evolution tells me, me and that roach go a ways back. this is one of the reasons i dont believe in evolution. its degrading. its also just a theory. we arent certain without a doubt it happened. ..... creationism is obviously my belief because to those who believe in it, it is not theory, it is fact. and there is plenty of scientific data to support it. there are creationist scientist researching right now, scientific data that supports creationism. ill provide a link later.....im too tired to search anything right now.....last post of the night...goodnight people

You've got to be kidding me. In all honesty Heinz exactly how many science classes have you taken, particularly in physics, biology, and especially astronomy? First of all, I'm going to completely ignore your reference to the big bang and evolution. Those are two different topics that deserve threads of their own, and have threads of their own, that I could go into in far greater detail for page after page after page. Additionally people have addressed EVERY single issue you raised with evolution vs. creationism and you have YET to address any of those issues ... yet you have abandoned that discussion and continue with your unsubstantiated postulations that creationism is fact and evolution is false. WHY have you failed to address the countless of people that have raised cogent scientific arguments to back up their claim? Here's the thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...on&pagenumber=3

Here are some other threads that have discussed evolution and once again NOBODY has managed to debunk the theory ... by all means please try:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...light=evolution

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...light=evolution

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...light=evolution

But I'm not here to argue any of that. You have actually treaded on an issue that I humbly like to think I have some sort of expertise in more than nearly any other topic. You appear to have SO little knowlege of astronomy that I'm here to give you a small lesson in star, galaxy, and planet formation.

Following the big bang, matter expanded out into space at great speeds in a nearly homogenous manner. Nearly because while space was largely vacuumn there did exist infinitesimal amounts of matter distributed in what can be considered clumps throughout the interstellar medium. While normal air contains one qaudrillion particles per cubic centimetre, space is almost a perfect vacuum with .00001 to less than 1 particle per cubic centimetre. Protons and electrons went through an era of recombination in which neutral hydrogen was formed. As mentioned before, this matter was largely distributed such that a perfect vacuum was maintained except for some non-homogenous clumps whereby the condensation of particles exceeded 1 particle per cubic centimetre into what are known as interstellar clouds. Now, gravity maintained a constant force on these clouds to the point whereby although the clouds were extremely non-dense, they spanned several cubic light-years in size such that they contained a vast number of particles and mass.

The inter-stellar cloud will start contracting if it is sufficiently large and heavy. This contraction causes the particles of the interstellar medium to pick up speed towards the centre of gravity of the cloud, and while the speeds of particles are not very high, the process is very long. The increase of speed of the particles means also that the temperature of the cloud increases ... basic physics. Finally, the temperature inside the cloud reaches around 50,000 Kelvin as gravitational forces continue to have their effect. The matter inside the cloud degenerates. The atoms normally consist of nuclei and electrons in orbit around the nucleus, but at high temperatures the atoms collide so violently that they get stripped off their electrons to generate a material called plasma.

The compression of the cloud generates heat and that heat gives the cloud own light. Now it is no longer a dark inter-stellar cloud but of a glowing proto-star. The gravitational force causes further contraction of the cloud, giving an internal temperature of the protostar of around 150,000 K and the surface temperature around 3500 K. The glow of the proto-star is only caused by release of energy due to the contraction of the protostar. No actual nuclear reaction takes place, yet. At this stage the protostar can evolve in two directions: if it is massive enough, it will continue the process of contraction; finally the nuclear reactions will fire, giving the proto-star the status of star. If it is not massive enough, the fate will be different. The protostar will eventually transform into a giant planet made of gas, with some heat and some emission of light, but that heat eventually will cool down. The planets of Jupiter and Saturn are good examples of that. If the planets had been hundreds of times more massive, they would be able to start a nuclear fire, making them tiny stars. But they don't have the enough mass and they will end up as brown dwarfs.

The proto-star continues the contraction until the temperature at the centre mounts to around 15,000,000 K, at which point the nuclei collide more and more violently. At some point the collisions between nuclei become so violent that the repulsive forces are too weak and the nuclei merge together. The merging process of two nuclei generates heat and that heat rises the temperature even more, also called nuclear reaction or a nuclear fusion. The star then continues this nuclear reaction burning up the nuclear fuel at the center of the star.




At this point I'm going to stop. If you're simply going to deny this as false without ANY sense of scientific understanding whatsoever, then there's no point for me to continue. If you want me to proceed however, then I can go into planetary formation. And if you try to quote a bible passage to me in response, then I'll probably smother myself to death.

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Originally posted by occrider At this point I'm going to stop. If you're simply going to deny this as false without ANY sense of scientific understanding whatsoever, then there's no point for me to continue. If you want me to proceed however, then I can go into planetary formation. And if you try to quote a bible passage to me in response, then I'll probably smother myself to death.

Well, evolution and the big bang are just theories, while the bible and god are fact. You cannot weigh a theory against a fact.

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Originally posted by nic01445 Well, evolution and the big bang are just theories, while the bible and god are fact. You cannot weigh a theory against a fact.

You're actually a very convincing religious fundamentalist. Ever thought about becoming a Mormon?

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Originally posted by arctic You're actually a very convincing religious fundamentalist. Ever thought about becoming a Mormon?

no, but i'm thinking about using my abilities as a stand up comedian.

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Originally posted by nic01445 Well, evolution and the big bang are just theories, while the bible and god are fact. You cannot weigh a theory against a fact.

omg


yes big bang and evolution are theories but current scientific evidence supports theories. Until more evidence comes along that discredits the theories, then they will be modified and changed accordingly to fit current scientific models. Theories may not be truth, but they are based on scientific fact and may be disproved.

And for the second part of your statement, i dont even know what the say...

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Originally posted by Heinz that didnt make sense. but heres the big bang from what i know. a large mass of matter (that SOMEHOW, unexplainably got there) was at the center of the universe. then it exploded, like a supernova. then, like a domino, SOMEHOW dust formed into planets, stars, and rocks. then life as we know it formed, SOMEHOW from the dirt in the ground BILLIONS of years ago. really i believe the theory of evolution to be degrading to me, because its really saying i share a common ancestor with the dirt that i got on my shoe before i walked through my front door. AND, i also share a common ancestry with all animals, so i look at a roach, the theory of evolution tells me, me and that roach go a ways back. this is one of the reasons i dont believe in evolution. its degrading. its also just a theory. we arent certain without a doubt it happened. ..... creationism is obviously my belief because to those who believe in it, it is not theory, it is fact. and there is plenty of scientific data to support it. there are creationist scientist researching right now, scientific data that supports creationism. ill provide a link later.....im too tired to search anything right now.....last post of the night...goodnight people

I anxiously await your scientific evidence. In the evo/creo forums I've been involved with over the years, I have yet to run across positive, observed, testable, repeated, and falsifiable evidence for creationism. You will most certainly be the first.

And as Occ stated, please try to keep your astronomy and biology separate. Biological evolution is a completely different topic than the formation of the universe after the Big Bang. An astute science student such as yourself would surely have been aware of this.

I look forward to your information.....

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Originally posted by Heinz very true. Deuteronomy 6:16 Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah. Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test. Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

James.1:13
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

How can God be tempted? James said God cannot be tempted, yet in the 3 versus you gave it states to not even try to tempt God. Is it necessary to prohibit an impossible act? Why tell us to not do something that is impossible to do?

And Heinz, I notice you avoided my post about the 2 thieves being cricified with Jesus. Here it is again:

quote:

Jesus tells the "good thief" that they will both be in heaven "today." But how can that be since it's only Friday and, according to the gospels, Jesus lay dead in the tomb Friday night and all day Saturday? Additionally, you pulled the version where only 1 thief will go to Heaven, while the other thief reviled Jesus. This is not what Mark.15:32 says: "And they that were crucified with him reviled him.", nor what Matthew.27:44 says: "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth." Both of these stories say the 2 thieves rejected Jesus. So which is it Heinz? Why did God have 2 different stories? Furthermore, why did God not even mention this part of the story in John? Why the different accounts and omission? If this was truly written by God (through man, of course), shouldn't God have done a better job with accounting such events?

Since you state there are no contradictions, and this seems like a glaring contradiction, a rational response from you is necessary at this point. Please do so when you have a chance.

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Originally posted by Heinz that didnt make sense. but heres the big bang from what i know.

Not really the most likely of theories, but considering that the difference is only in the beginning, then I'll let it pass.

a large mass of matter (that SOMEHOW, unexplainably got there) was at the center of the universe.[/quote]

There was no universe prior to big bang. How it came to be is yet an open question. Whether the amount of matter was constant is also currently unknown.

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then it exploded, like a supernova.

Not really like a supernova, since supernovas expand into open space. This explosion caused the creation of space. Really, what happened prior to big bang (if there was anything prior to it, considering it was the creation of time as well) is currently impossible to tell. So if you wan't to believe that god caused the big bang, or the act of creation of the universe, I won't hold it against you, because why such a thing happened is still a mystery.

But, after that things are pretty much clear, and your post is just showing your horribly poor education.

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then, like a domino, SOMEHOW dust formed into planets, stars, and rocks.

Ever heard of gravity? You know, that force that draws matter together? Well, guess what, it may have had something to do with it!

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then life as we know it formed, SOMEHOW from the dirt in the ground BILLIONS of years ago.

Well, that's not that difficult to comprehend considering that the first lifeforms weren't really very complex. Infact, they were just short strands of DNA. Not that impossible to happen. And I fail to see the senselessness of the word billions here.

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really i believe the theory of evolution to be degrading to me, because its really saying i share a common ancestor with the dirt that i got on my shoe before i walked through my front door.

So what, it's degrading for me to share species with you, yet I unfortunately do. If something hurts your poor little feelings, it doesn't mean it's not there. Really, this is an argument I'd expect from a 5 year old. Close your eyes and say it isn't there, so it just may disappear!

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AND, i also share a common ancestry with all animals, so i look at a roach, the theory of evolution tells me, me and that roach go a ways back. this is one of the reasons i dont believe in evolution. its degrading.

Maybe if you wouldn't hold your nose so high that you're ripping clouds with it you'd see that we're all made from same substances and have the same biology and chemistry. The roach is designed on the same principles as you or I are, except that it doesn't have our level of complexity.

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its also just a theory. we arent certain without a doubt it happened. .....

It is a theory because it is not 100% certain that it describes exactly what happens, but it serves as a very good approximation. The theory of gravity is also just a theory, yet the apple will fall from the three regardless of whether you believe in it or not.

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creationism is obviously my belief because to those who believe in it, it is not theory, it is fact.

Yes, to those who believe it. For everyone with an IQ>50 and a primary school education, it is a bogus theory.

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and there is plenty of scientific data to support it.

Like what? Give me please just 1 example which shows that creationism is the most likely theory. Hell, give me just 1 example which shows that it's even possible!

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there are creationist scientist researching right now, scientific data that supports creationism.

Those "scientists" are considered to be valid scientists only in fundamentalist circles.

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ill provide a link later.....im too tired to search anything right now.....last post of the night...goodnight people

I can hardly wait.

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Originally posted by Heinz very true. Deuteronomy 6:16 Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah. Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test. Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

Putting God to the test would be asking him/her/it to do something to prove his/her/its power. I do not do that. I am asking you whether s/he/it can do what I say. I will not ask you to get God tomake the burrito and send it to me as proof. I just want you to tell me, since you have the answers, whether God CAN do such a thing. If I asked you whether God can redeem souls, you would answer, if I asked you whether God could create life, you would answer... Now I ask you whether God can make a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it... I believe in a God of sorts, and in my conception of God I have an answer to my question... I want to know yours. I am not putting God to the test, I am questioning the foundation to your beliefs... since you welcomed all questions, please be so kind as to answer mine directly.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, that's not that difficult to comprehend considering that the first lifeforms weren't really very complex. Infact, they were just short strands of DNA. Not that impossible to happen. And I fail to see the senselessness of the word billions here.

Indeed, the longer the period of time, the more likely evolution becomes!

As for Heinz: the fact that you feel degraded by being likened to the earth and other creatures is telling of the egotistical nature of fundamentalist Christianity, it encourages homocentric egoism... after all it is MAN that was made in Gods image and no other animals. The same self-centred paradigm that burned people at the stake rather than admit that man and earth were not the centre of the Universe.

As a side note: Here's a question I want some Christians here to answer: What do you think of the below artwork. Have a look at it and tell me how you feel.

I did not vote cause my belief is not stated in the options so I will describe it.

I believe that the only thing that exist is me. It may sound self centered but you prove to me that you exist. So in my belief is that everything around me and everyone could or could not exist, I don't know, I only thing I can prove is that I myself exist, That does not mean that my body itself exist persay my conscious mind. So ask yourself how can I be certain so-so exist?

I will leave with that question for you to ponder. I'm open to be flamed or questioned, just remember to ask yourself that question before you decide to post, it might answer any problems or questions you may have.

I put cookie monster because I belive that 'the big bang theory' is about as far-fetched as creationism.


I have one question though. Keep in mind I am absolutly clueless when it comes to religion but....

If it all started with Adam and Eve. Wouldn't their kids and their kids kids have to commit incest to populate the planet? And same with the whole Noah's ark thing? Doesn't inbreding end up make making the person retarded after a while? I know when you inbreed birds they become all fucked up after after a couple generations.

Sorry if these questions have been answered a thousand times but I have always wondered. Thanks.

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Originally posted by jesten I put cookie monster because I belive that 'the big bang theory' is about as far-fetched as creationism. I have one question though. Keep in mind I am absolutly clueless when it comes to religion but.... If it all started with Adam and Eve. Wouldn't their kids and their kids kids have to commit incest to populate the planet? And same with the whole Noah's ark thing? Doesn't inbreding end up make making the person retarded after a while? I know when you inbreed birds they become all fucked up after after a couple generations. Sorry if these questions have been answered a thousand times but I have always wondered. Thanks.

Then again, the big band and evolution don't necessarily have t go together. Evolution is essentially proven now, we've observed it in operation, and have direct evidence of it's validity (transitional fossils and so on). I'm not up to date on the status of the big bang theory, there should be someone about who has working knowledge of all the 'first cause' theories and their respective status'.

As for the Adam and Eve point, yes, spot on. I'm yet to see a decent refutation of this from the YECs, as Christians generally deplore any suggestion of incest, let alone incest itself.

This is actually quite interesting. Assuming that the first life on earth was a (single?) one-cell organism, then wouldn't every living thing on earth be in incest. We've all got the same (single cell) mummy!

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