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-- Israeli Wall claims its first victim
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Originally posted by VanFleet Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Brigades derive their legitimacy by killing Israeli secretaries, high schoolers and sending homicide bombers to slaughter two year olds eating ice cream and civilians eating Pizza.

As well... the IDF has been known to bomb crowded neighboroods where people dont even have the luxury of eating ice cream and pizza, or going to highschool becuase Israel loves to punish all palestinians for the actions that a few have committed.

Targetting Civilians

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Originally posted by Heinz palestinian, the revolutionaries never recruited children to become suicide bombers. nor did americans personally have a hatred of all things british. they wanted to do away with british colonial power, and become an independent nation of freedom. but they did not want to destroy the british nation just because they at the time, were the enemy. innocent civilians were not killed on any regular or dileberate basis, which is a palestinian fav. target. the innocent israeli's, just trying to go about their days, to school, jobs, home. at least israeli's main targets are militants. yes of course civilians will be affected, but the israeli army does not specifically target civilians for attack. the story of mohammed al durruh. tragic yes, but under the circumstances, they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. palestinian militants were engaged in a firefight with PLO units inside of their compound. it is not the israeli's fault for civilian deaths. are you going to say, "ok this bullet is for that hamas fighter over there, plz dont hit that man running across the street, he is unarmed" ^^no, that is not possible. in the reality of this world, people WILL be killed. maybe in mohammed's story, if those militants hadnt fired on the compound, maybe durruh would still be alive, and his father would have that car they were looking for on that day.

Britain was all the way in another continent. Their civilians could not be harmed. Also, many of the patriots were as young as Palestinian suicide bombers. And the Americans didn't hate everything British because they were basically British in many ways. If it was Chinese that ruled them, they would hate everything Chinese. And our aim isn't to destroy the Jewish nation but to regain Palestinian rights of freedom and independence that were the costs of Zionism. If that means a one state solution, then coexistence is our goal.

You also must differentiate between British rule and Israeli rule. Britain didn't have tanks, helicopters, road blocks and checkpoints in their colonies.

And your logic says that if Hamas fighters were in downtown Tel Aviv then it's alright for Israel to bomb a busy downtown street to kill the fighters and probably many people around them.

If you know civilians will be killed, then why support the shooting just because it doesn't target civilians? How can you say it doesn't target civilians and at the same time say civilians will be killed. If you know your action will kill civilians then why do it?

But either way, how do you know the Israeli military doesn't target civilians? Who told you? Just because it is a trained military doesn't mean they don't target civilians. You can site tens of militaries around the world today that target civilians. Why is Israel exempt? The Palestinian people are the enemy of Zionism and the foundation that Israel was established upon. Civilians are targetted by the IDF. There are numerous reports and adequate documentation by various human rights organizations.

And what of the policies of occupation? Water theft, closures and checkpoints, roadblocks and curfews, home demolitions and extra-judicial assassinations, jailings without due process and trial, random shootings and taunting, farm plowing and tree uprooting. Aren't they considered targetting 3.3 million civilians? People get beat up at checkpoints for fun, ambulances not allowed through to hospital till the patient bleeds to death or mother miscarries, people prevented from going to work because of a closure lose their income and starve to malnutrition and disease. Last year a priest got harrassed on his way to Church and a 12 year old altar boy sniped in the chest. Isn't that targetting civilians?

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King As well... the IDF has been known to bomb crowded neighboroods where people dont even have the luxury of eating ice cream and pizza, or going to highschool becuase Israel loves to punish all palestinians for the actions that a few have committed.

lol now i think i've heard it all... the israelis dont let the palestinians eat ice cream and pizza

just keep talking cyrus, keep talking

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Too bad you dont see that millions of palestinians dont commit crimes like the innocent israeli's that get blown up.

Thats stupid and not connected because Jews were put in getthos and were exterminated based on their race, arabs however fought Israeli since and before it was created. They used armies, they used terror, the use suicide bombings - and now in 2004 after Olso, kamp David, Road Map all brought more violance and suicide bombings - it is the time to build the wall. there is a big part of arabs in the Israeli Knesset(parliment) and arabs in israel leave peafully inside it. you are the one full of hate and ignorance - the fact that "millions of palestinians dont commit crimes" is not covering for the fact that other millions put all their time and talent in blowing up as much cevilians as they can. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU COMPARE THIS SITUATION TO JEWS IN GERMANY\POLAND\EUROPE IN WW2???

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Too bad that children have been senselessly shot in the head on numerous occasions.

The wall will only reduce such events. and agian, never kids were shot in the had for fun by IDF, in WW2 Jews were shot in while standing naked in rows in front of a pit in the ground, they were mass mardered in Gas Chambers - and this list can go forever.

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Too bad Arafat doesnt threaten death to Sharon, but Sharon does.

Even your freid Palesitnian admits that Arafat is a terrorist and supports suicide bombings. If you like suicide bombings - that doesnt mean me and sharon like them.

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Its too bad that you are blinded by your own hate for the otehr side. Guess what....arabs are taking over that region slowly. Your precious israel cannot fight the true weapon arabs have.... and that is their demographic advantage.

Again i dont see the connection of that one.
What fucking hate? I'm full of hate at you - but not at the "Other Side". again - alot of arabs live inside Israel and badly refuse to join the future independent Palestine. God blessed all of humans to reproduce so bless those arabs too.

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All you see is PALESTINIANS = Terrorists Therefore we should punish ALL of them.

All I see is that alot of palestinians are terrorist and that besides Israel NO ONE is trying to stop\punish them.
What do you sugest then? How can i punish ONLY the terrorists? is there like a city where only terrorists live?
Oh - I have an idea, If PLO will figth terrorists as a police force -Israel wont enter the terretoreies at all.
Its a fact look whats happeneing now in Beit-Lehem where Israel moved out from at Abu-Mazen's time.

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I do compare the intent similar to that of the germans. To concentrate and controll a whole people based on their race.

Thats stupid. thats childish. thats ^^^ brain washed.
20% of Israeli population are not jews - and the big majority of them are Arabs. so stop being so ignorant, its like you say stuff just in order to insult and hurt me like a little kid.

quote:

And you wanna know the truth....YOUR GOVERNMENT IS EVIL....THEY UTLIZE THE SAME TACTICS TERRORISTS USE.. AND THAT IS FEAR AND HORROR!!!!!!!!!! STATE TERRORISM....learn it moron

you are the moron here.

There is one thing about all of this that really pisses me of, and that thing is how all of you people living in your peaceful countries like Canada are criticizing Israel and talking about the whole thing like you know something. The truth is you have no idea how it is to have your life threaten every day when you go to school, or after school when you go hang out with friends, Im sure that in your peaceful Canada you can do all that with out any worries, well guess what, here in Israel every week innocent people and even young kids die without any reason. All they wanted is to get to their school or their place of work, or even maybe to buy some clothes at the mall or something.

And about that fence thing, The Palestinians want to have their own independent state? No problems, Israel wont get anywhere near it, That�s if the Palestinians wont get anywhere near Israel, don�t you understand that thousands of Palestinians cross the border illegally each day to get to their working place in Israel?, Israel just don�t want them here, they can find a job back in their Palestinian state.

There is no room for comparing the fence to the ghettos in World War 2 for the simple reason that it's just a border between two separate states, states that are hostile with each other.

Its like that not everyone from Mexico can get to the US just by walking through the border for example, he must first get checked by the US authorities, then they can also send him back to Mexico if they want. Well that�s exactly what's happening in Israel except that Israel is just tiered of all the Palestinians crossing the border with out permission they do it illegally and that�s why the fence is being set up, so every one will be checked before entering the sate of Israel, that will also reduce the number of suicide bombers.

Unilaterally annexing half a country and then complaining when these people illegally trespass strikes me as particularly ironic. There is a reason innocent Israelis are dying, it's called vengeance, a core human emotion, you can oppress a people only so far before they will fight back.

Bitte sch�n.

Thanks DJ for making a purely emotional arguement. I could say, and every week innocent Palestinians are killed but it would strengthen my point. Innocent people on both sides are dying.

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And about that fence thing, The Palestinians want to have their own independent state? No problems, Israel wont get anywhere near it, That�s if the Palestinians wont get anywhere near Israel, don�t you understand that thousands of Palestinians cross the border illegally each day to get to their working place in Israel?, Israel just don�t want them here, they can find a job back in their Palestinian state.

Thousands of illegal mexicans cross the border looking to live in the US, that takes away just as many jobs. Do you realize how vast the border is, I have been to big bend and seen that there are just little checkpoints on the road with a wooden barrier. If you really wanted to cross, just go about a mile to the right. But the US isn't going to build a wall around mexico. I don't see your example making a strong point. And where is your reference?

I agree that comparing it to the holocaust is extremly ignorant.

quote:

Originally posted by priveye03 Thousands of illegal mexicans cross the border looking to live in the US, that takes away just as many jobs. Do you realize how vast the border is, I have been to big bend and seen that there are just little checkpoints on the road with a wooden barrier. If you really wanted to cross, just go about a mile to the right. But the US isn't going to build a wall around mexico.

You have a point but I don't see it as very relevent. Mexicans don't exactly blow up buses in L.A. on a regular basis.

It was directed to DJ-Kreing's comment. Sorry, should have quoted.

I'm sure that if the original intention of the Mexican immigrants was to blow them selves up in the US, they would surely do something to prevent them from crossing the border illegally.

quote:

Originally posted by priveye03 It was directed to DJ-Kreing's comment. Sorry, should have quoted.

I know who it was in response to, I can read. That doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevent since Mexicans aren't blowing shit up. If Palestinian illegal workers did yard work and drank beer all day it would be different.

i'm sorry but i find this unbelievably hypocritical, if you're going to bitch about Palestinian terrorists don't turn a blind eye to IDF state sponsored terrorism. It's just as bad, if not worse in some peoples perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey I know who it was in response to, I can read. That doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevent since Mexicans aren't blowing shit up. If Palestinian illegal workers did yard work and drank beer all day it would be different.

Basically what you are saying is that all the illegal workers have the plan to blow some shit up... Also, your not recognizing the various Mexican gangs that are formed that are killing and commiting crimes also. Some gangs include

The Mexican Boys
Crazy Homies
Ninos Malos
Southside
Chidos Picudos
Cachandos
Border Brothers
Traviesos (NY)
Wild Chicanos
Santaneros
Cacos
18th Street
Cuatro in Quietos
Pitufos
Sureno Trece
LA 13
La Mugre
Los Cholos
Brown Pride
Vagabondos
Palomos
Vente Seis
Compadres
La Tremendas
Los Primos
Necios
Escandolosos
Barrio Kings
Santiago Muchacan
Reyes Locos
La Cien
Cueristos
La Raza Mexicana
Night and Day
La Hermandad De Pistoleros Latinos

And those are just gangs on the East coast (noting how I left out about 16)
Also the number of jobs that they take away from americans etc..

But again, it isn't incredibly relevent, I was just refuting a statment DJ made.

quote:

That�s if the Palestinians wont get anywhere near Israel, don�t you understand that thousands of Palestinians cross the border illegally each day to get to their working place in Israel?, Israel just don�t want them here, they can find a job back in their Palestinian state.

quote:

Its like that not everyone from Mexico can get to the US just by walking through the border for example, he must first get checked by the US authorities, then they can also send him back to Mexico if they want. Well that�s exactly what's happening in Israel except that Israel is just tiered of all the Palestinians crossing the border with out permission they do it illegally and that�s why the fence is being set up, so every one will be checked before entering the sate of Israel

AKBAR ALLAHHHHHHHHHHHHH .."screams" "sirens" "blood"....all for Allah....
----------------------
if the usa invaded mexico and occupied, i think the mexicans might celebrate. i dont know. since many are so desperate to get into the USA. and if it was like palestine, like where the usa occupies mexico, the mexicans would never suicide bomb usa, because they are catholic, and, it fucking mexico.

quote:

Originally posted by priveye03 Basically what you are saying is that all the illegal workers have the plan to blow some shit up... Also, your not recognizing the various Mexican gangs that are formed that are killing and commiting crimes also. Some gangs include The Mexican Boys Crazy Homies Ninos Malos Southside Chidos Picudos Cachandos Border Brothers Traviesos (NY) Wild Chicanos Santaneros Cacos 18th Street Cuatro in Quietos Pitufos Sureno Trece LA 13 La Mugre Los Cholos Brown Pride Vagabondos Palomos Vente Seis Compadres La Tremendas Los Primos Necios Escandolosos Barrio Kings Santiago Muchacan Reyes Locos La Cien Cueristos La Raza Mexicana Night and Day La Hermandad De Pistoleros Latinos And those are just gangs on the East coast (noting how I left out about 16) Also the number of jobs that they take away from americans etc.. But again, it isn't incredibly relevent, I was just refuting a statment DJ made.

mexican gangs kill eachother and other illegal immigrants. the jobs they steal are low wage labour work that i wouldnt care about since im not 13 and dont have to shovel driveways or garden for my parents to get money for the movies. mexican gangs also dont kill infants. just some of the reasons mexican gangs dont really bother me. oh and the all usually live in the same areas that nobody goes into anyways.

you forgot to mention some of the good they do. they bring cheap herbs in as well as cheap carona

oh man now that im thinking about it...there are so many good things about mexican gangs. have you ever seen "Next Friday" lol the little dog Paco that mexican gang had was awesome!

quote:

Originally posted by priveye03 Basically what you are saying is that all the illegal workers have the plan to blow some shit up...

Don�t be so naive, if the Illegal workers can get around the Israeli authorities so can the suicide bombers and the terrorists. That�s why the fence is being set up in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by priveye03 Basically what you are saying is that all the illegal workers have the plan to blow some shit up

thats not what anyone is saying.

I just had a thought... what if Israel took that suicide bomber exhibit from the Swedish art museum and put it up as a gigantic mural on the Palestinian side of the wall?

Would that satisfy the Palestinians? Come on, it's decorative, it's much more interesting scenery than a border crossing!

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey mexican gangs kill eachother and other illegal immigrants. the jobs they steal are low wage labour work that i wouldnt care about since im not 13 and dont have to shovel driveways or garden for my parents to get money for the movies. mexican gangs also dont kill infants. just some of the reasons mexican gangs dont really bother me. oh and the all usually live in the same areas that nobody goes into anyways. you forgot to mention some of the good they do. they bring cheap herbs in as well as cheap carona oh man now that im thinking about it...there are so many good things about mexican gangs. have you ever seen "Next Friday" lol the little dog Paco that mexican gang had was awesome!

That is to much of a generalization. Drive-bys can kill just as many innocent by-stands as gang members. Armed roberies etc... And alot of illegal immigrants also take away factory jobs, so be it that they aren't high paid, but still are being taken away from americans.

lol, herbs and carona, if I smoked I would agree. Only say Friday and not Next Friday, sorry. But this debate isnt on Mexican immigrants.

quote:

I know who it was in response to, I can read. That doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevent since Mexicans aren't blowing shit up. If Palestinian illegal workers did yard work and drank beer all day it would be different.

Look at the quote, it was implied. If you didn't mean it this way you should have worded it differently.

all the pro-palestinian supporters, go to Israel live there for a while and see how the reality is like for the other side.

All Pro-Israeli supporters, I would say the same, go live in a Palestinian area, but many of you probably be mutilated in less then a week

does anyone know numbers of civilians killed by palestine and isreal. both sides. And i mean civilians not soldiers.

getting a real civilian count for the Palestinian is almost near impossible. If you want an Israel account, I know the idf.il has some info.

Almost impossible still allows for the possibility that it still might be possible...behold:

http://www.al-awda.org/civiliandeathsandinjuries/

and in particular, exact numbers for palestinian civilian deaths, among numerous other categories...

http://www.miftah.org/report.cfm

Of course, Al-Awda and Miftah are palestinian human rigths organizations, but I guess that's fair game since the quoted israeli source (idf.il) is pro-zionist...At any rate, make your own conclusions...

quote:

Originally posted by Epicurus Almost impossible still allows for the possibility that it still might be possible...behold: http://www.al-awda.org/civiliandeathsandinjuries/ and in particular, exact numbers for palestinian civilian deaths, among numerous other categories... http://www.miftah.org/report.cfm Of course, Al-Awda and Miftah are palestinian human rigths organizations, but I guess that's fair game since the quoted israeli source (idf.il) is pro-zionist...At any rate, make your own conclusions...

Those are sources on the Palestinian civilian deaths, which are also published by B'Tselem (an Israeli organization). Israeli organizations put out pretty extensive information on the number of civilian casualties it has *caused*, and I believe a lot of the Palestinian supporters in this thread have used them as sources.

What I believe Yoepus meant was that it would be impossible to find a source on how many civilian deaths Palestine has caused. Indeed, I haven't seen any good-faith Palestinian organizations publish this sort of information (at least not with truthful statistics).

Note: I'm not arguing about which side has killed more civilians so don't bother debating me on that... I'm merely stating - or rather, reaffirming - the lack of any Palestinian initiative to report on its own crimes.

"What I believe Yoepus meant was that it would be impossible to find a source on how many civilian deaths Palestine has caused."

I doubt that's what Yoepus meant considering the fact that he quoted idf.il as his source to the question:

"does anyone know numbers of civilians killed by palestine and isreal. both sides. And i mean civilians not soldiers."

To my knowledge, idf.il does not contain casualties CAUSED by Israel...therefore, i don't believe that's what he intended to convey as a message when he stated:

"getting a real civilian count for the Palestinian is almost near impossible. If you want an Israel account, I know the idf.il has some info."

All idf.il has is statistics on Israeli casualties, presumably caused by Palestinians... http://www.idf.il/english/news/jump_2_eng_300900.stm

Ay any rate, you are right in pointing out B'Tselem as an Israeli organization, and one that shows Palestinian casualties, and I definitely should have also quoted their sources, so thanks for the heads up.

Now in regards to Palestinian organizations reporting "their crimes", you are correct in pointing out that no reliable organizations report on "their crimes", though of course, it isn't "their crimes", for that would assume that they somehow identify with the crimes being committed. So yes, they do not report on suicide bombing vitims (which is what I assume you mean). At any rate, and this is purely my opinion and educated conjecture, the reasons that no Palestinian organizations report on this is because:

1) There are enough (western) media outlets that already do so
2) They are busy enough trying to highlight some of the injustices being done to them by Israel and attempting to secure basic human rights for their people so that they can live slightly tolerable lives.

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