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-- Minorities want race stats only when it benifits them
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quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy DJ Smitty: Funny the story about the lebanese immigrants that (assuming your story is accurate) are taking advantage of the system. I wonder what your thoughts are on the generations of Canadian born welfare families. But, of course, it is because the others are immigrants "easily gaining access to the benefits" of Canada that they are taking advantage. The point is, your comments are more discriminatory than you seem to realize (or at least I hope so). I too don't agree with the OSAP policy (because high income earners already pay more taxes), for example, but it's funny that you don't complain about the government only giving full OSAP to children of low income families in general, instead you're upset about the immigrants getting this benefit. I'm sure if we only had immigrants from nice, civilized, white countries like the UK, we'd never have any such problems. That stupid Trudeau. For the record, Canada does not accept immigrants simply out of the goodness of the white Canadian's hearts. It was and still is a purely economically driven policy. Without immigrants, Canada would go bankrupt. Simple as that buddy. Immigrants either bring investment into Canada, or contribute to the workforce paying taxes and supporting a system which would otherwise fail due shrinking population (not counting immigration) and growing percentage of senior citizens. Any abuse of the system by some bad apples among immigrants is the same as bad apples born in Canada, but overall immigration is by far more beneficial for Canada. As for the white man being the most persecuted, what a bunch of bullshit. At the next TA meet up, why don't we have a chat and exchange some stories of racism to see how bad you've had it. Also, you clearly have no concept of what it's like for someone to immigrate to a totally new place, and how difficult it is to make a respectable life for yourself and your family, even if it's to a great country like Canada. Wow, I really didn't think this level of ignorance still existed.

Yes, my friend's family IS taking advantage of the system. As for welfare, there is always going to be people below the poverty line. While I think the government should do as much to help these people, welfare should be administered strictly and effectively. My problem with OSAP is that it's not accessible to anybody BUT low income class people, including many immigrants. The Government doesn't seem to realise that a person who makes 50,000 dollars a year is working class and has bills up the ass. It's extremely difficult for a parent to fund their child's education by forking over more than 10% of their wage a year. I don't expect my parents or the government to pay my way, but I DO expect some help. Instead, I'm estimated at ZERO dollars every year, while people who weren't even born in this country get a free ride.

As for immigration...I'd rather see this country invest in policies of stimulating reproduction at higher rates rather than just bringing in 400,000 people a year. You talk about discrimination...I'll tell you what...EVERYBODY has prejudices. Personally, I'm sick of going down to my corner store for smokes and not being able to understand the guy behind the counter because he doesn't speak English and gets quite rude when you say "sorry?". That's offensive to me, a native born Canadian. The official languages of this nation are English and French, but for some reason, especially at Western, I rarely hear them being spoken. And if immigration is necessary, at least the government should be more selective in who they bring in. Take the most qualified people...if that means more Brits, Europeans and Japanese are coming in rather than Arabs, Idians or Africans, well then too fucking bad. Except that's not the case at all...this country is far too lenient.

You wanna talk about stories of racism? Sure, I'll give you a few. I can't count how many times I've heard Arab guys at school and my work bitch about how Canada sucks or that September 11th was a great thing and how much Jews are bastards, etc. Or how about my Lebanese friend saying Canadian people have no family values and all white women are whores because they have pre marital sex? I once wore an England shirt to school during the 2002 World Cup and I was given nasty looks and sneers by a few ginos and an Arabic guy. How many times have I seen immigrants bitching about the monarchy and how Christmas and Easter shouldn't be statutory holidays because they're Christian in origin and violate the Charter under religious freedom? It's precisely that kind of crap that I cannot stand....if you're going to come to this country, please respect the traditions, customs and laws here. Keep your religion all you want, but don't preach and demand that Canadian and British common-law be swept aside to accomodate your beliefs. That wasn't the intent of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms...a lot of people take it way too far.

I understand that it's difficult to come to this country...but after all, whether for economic reasons or not, WE are taking YOU into OUR country. Why should we bend over backwards to make you feel comfortable? This is why borders across the world still exist. You can call it ignorance all you want, but this sort of backlash isn't an isolated sentiment...I think you'll find that many white Canadians are feeling that they're constantly being attacked these days in many, many ways.

Listen, I'm curious, how many of the native Canadian languages do you speak? Oh, and how in touch are you with the native's traditions and customs? ......That's what I thought.

I won't waste my breath on you anymore, as you're obviously more ignorant than I even realized. But that's not your fault, so I won't judge you. Instead, I'll wish for your sake that you have experiences in your life that help open your eyes to your ignorance. If that day comes, think of me.

quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy Listen, I'm curious, how many of the native Canadian languages do you speak? Oh, and how in touch are you with the native's traditions and customs? ......That's what I thought. I won't waste my breath on you anymore, as you're obviously more ignorant than I even realized. But that's not your fault, so I won't judge you. Instead, I'll wish for your sake that you have experiences in your life that help open your eyes to your ignorance. If that day comes, think of me.

If I was a Native (as in an Aborigonal person), I would have capitalised the word Native. I'm native to this country, meaning I was born here. I speak English and a bit of French, though it's hard for me to read it. So you can't care to debate my points? I find that all too common...when the truth stares people in the face, they just say "oh, you're so ignorant." I'm ignorant to you and you are ignorant to me.

Is it not racist for my Arab friend to tell me white Canadian girls are whores and we have no values? And that women should be put in their place? That isn't how we do things here...so maybe you should open your eyes and see where people like me are coming from.

I think canada needs to strike a balance between accepting new immigrant customs and protecting its traditions. i am all for learning new languages and learning new customs but not if i am going to be told that my home country's customs are somehow "offensive" just because we mention santa or jesus at school. People who think like this can go back for all i care.... acceptance works both ways

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 If I was a Native (as in an Aborigonal person), I would have capitalised the word Native. I'm native to this country, meaning I was born here. I speak English and a bit of French, though it's hard for me to read it. So you can't care to debate my points? I find that all too common...when the truth stares people in the face, they just say "oh, you're so ignorant." I'm ignorant to you and you are ignorant to me. Is it not racist for my Arab friend to tell me white Canadian girls are whores and we have no values? And that women should be put in their place? That isn't how we do things here...so maybe you should open your eyes and see where people like me are coming from.

I did not care to "debate" your points, because the prospects of educating you seemed too hopeless. And your points clearly showed you did not even understand what I was trying to tell you earlier. It doesn't surprise me that you say you commonly find people telling you that you're ignorant. Maybe you should think about that a little.

By the way, funny how my not capitalizing the word Native caught your attention more than the point I was trying to convey. I'm sorry my immigrant English writing wasn't perfect enough for you, LOL. Sad.

I hate to do this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you'll actually listen to what I'm saying and "debate" your points below:

1. It is very ironic for you as a white man to think that somehow you have more right to this land than those citizens who immigrated here, when your white ancestors were not particularly welcome here once upon a time. If I have to pick between white people and Natives (yes, Aboriginal is another acceptable term) as to who has any true claims to this land, we all know who that would be. The reality, however, is that we all now live here, so get over it white boy. Just like the white man has been telling the poor Natives that they should get over it as Canada (and that includes new citizens like me) continues to screw them over.

2. OSAP: I thought I made myself clear that I too disagree with the OSAP rule. By the way, that's not the only place where this happens in society. For instance, daycare subsidy is only available to those below a certain income. The problem with such policies in my opinion is that the graded tax system already does more than enough to make high earners pay their share (or more!). If you earn $100,000 you pay about $50,000 in taxes, four times as much as someone earning $40,000 (both single people).

The point is that your singling out of immigrants who benefit from the policies is just unnecessary and clearly prejudiced. Immigrants and converted citizens were brought here to become part of this society and contribute to it and benefit from it. The good and the bad. So pointing out that some immigrants benefit from society's benefits is just uncalled for, they damn well should! Now, if some members of society (immigrant or not) are abusing the system, that's a separate issue that we're always trying to fix but of course some still manage to take advantage.

3. IMMIGRATION: Wow, your second paragraph is so screwed up (I'm really sorry, but it just drips of ignorance) I don't even know where to begin. You should go and read the rest of this thread as posts by myself and others explain immigration policies and why certain people are chosen over others. By the way, even if Canada were somehow to decided that you are right and that we should only accept people from the developed nations you mentioned from now on, did it ever occur to you that people from such countries don't even want to come here? Plus, you are clearly not recognizing the contribution of a multicultural immigration policy to the current identity of Canada. Canada is the best country in the world among all those I've lived in and visited (quite a few), and its true multiculturalism is the most unique of all its strengths. I truly believe that we can be a model for the world if we manage to stay the course.

I am sorry that you have experience what seemed like discrimination towards you because you are white. I am however even more sorry that the experience didn't open your eyes a little more. I would have thought that the experience would maybe at least give you a little taste of the humiliation and abuse that visible minorities and immigrants have to deal with on a regular basis sometimes.

One last thing, your idea of stimulating procreation instead of accepting immigrants is just silly. No offence, but it shows you don't understand much of the factors that have lead to the population decline and what kind of task it would be to overcome that.

4. RACISM: I fail to see how stories of your non-white friends being racist people shows your suffering from racism as a white man. LOL, I am so happy for you that you have been fortunate enough that the best story of personal "persecution" as a white man you can come up with is about being given dirty looks when you were wearing an England shirt during the World Cup.

So it sounds like you have some friends who are also racist or sexist. What does that have to do with anything? There are many "real" Canadians who believe strongly enough in a religion to think that if you have sex before marriage you are a whore, etc. What's your point? If your point is that some people immigrating from non-white countries can also be racist, you are damn right. I'll be the first to admit that Iranians in general are very racist. Towards westerners, towards arabs, towards chinese, Indians, you name it. The same is true of many other cultures who have had little exposure to people of various backgrounds. That includes Indians, Chinese, and several European countries. It's all due to fear and ignorance towards the unknown. Just like Canadians used to be before any significant immigration. Another reason why Canada in it's multicultural form is such a great opportunity to show that different races CAN live among each other with tolerance rather than a melting pot scenario as in the States.

You're upset that some immigrants don't like the monarchy? That is just silly. Many "real" Canadians (i.e. those who were born here, as you clearly think that somehow means you should have more to say about the way things should be) don't agree with the monarchy. Hell, many British feel the same way! I'm sorry, is immigration and naturalization in Canada only with the condition that the newcomers don't have the right to express their opinions on anything and that all the decisions should be made by white people? In other words, what you'd really like is slaves, not immigrants.

The same goes for your comment about the Easter Holidays. I personally am of the view that the Christian tradition in Canada should remain that way (although I'm not Christian). However, many others don't and I respect their opinion. Tell me, if someone is born in Canada in a non-Christian home, is it alright for them to experess their disagreement with Easter being a holiday? After all, many muslims, Jews, and Hindu's were born here. Or is that right too reserved for those born here in white families?

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not "the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as Convenient to Redneck White People". It is there to set a standard, the one thing I will forever consider Canada endebted to Trudeau and Chretien for.

5. YOUR COUNTRY: Last but not least. Yes, YOU took me and other immigrants into YOUR country. And for that I am so grateful. Canada has given me a home, in an environment that allowed me to feel truly accepted, more so than even my own country did. Within a few years of moving here (I came in 1987) I felt very Canadian already. I now consider myself at least 50% "Canadian" and the rest a mixture of all the other influences I've had. Since early on, I've lived here as a proud and committed Canadian, made myself aware of the issues more than most people born here, supported the economy by buying Canadian products, and have been as productive a member of this society as anyone could possibly be. BUT, you have to understand that I consider myself a Canadian, period. No less than you are, whether or not you like it. So you'll excuse me and other immigrant Canadians if we don't come over and kiss your little white Canadian feet in appreciation and thanks for being here. You let us in for ECONOMIC reasons, and economic benefit you have received. THIS IS NOT YOUR COUNTRY ALONE ANYMORE BUDDY.



The above was written as a courtesy to you and others reading this thread whom might have otherwise had the wrong impression from my initially refusing to respond to your "points".

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 ....estimated at ZERO dollars every year, while people who weren't even born in this country get a free ride.

Free ride! HARDLY...

I see elements of racism in both Smitty and Arcticboy's posts. I suggest you both give your heads a shake..

terms like "whiteboy" and "redneck" are no better than any of the other derogatory terms i can think of. Especially in the contexts in which they are presented here.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 I see elements of racism in both Smitty and Arcticboy's posts. I suggest you both give your heads a shake.. terms like "whiteboy" and "redneck" are no better than any of the other derogatory terms i can think of. Especially in the contexts in which they are presented here.

If I were you, I'd concentrate more on the meaning behind everything I wrote rather than get caught up on two words. You might want to look up the definition of racism, and see if such an attitude was reflected in anything I wrote. The term "white boy" was used sarcastically by me, deliberately, as I was responding to a post in which he referred to himself as being hard done by as a "white" man. My apologies if that did not come across clearly. As for redneck, it was not directed at anyone specific if you read the quote again, but was directed at the idea that the Charter is no good if it serves the needs of immigrants beyond some arbitrary point of his choosing. (But, if you think about it, some of the comments and attitudes are pretty much the definition of redneck, though he might not have been aware of it.) If nobody here is a redneck, then no need to take offence to the term, is there?

By the way, if you knew me, then you'd realize there is no way whatsoever that I am racist (yes, I can comfortably say that). Maybe we'll get to meet at a future event.

Holly smokes....why write so much?
next time just condense it down!!?!? You don't need to write an essay to prove your point lol....

Arctic: i completely understand. I was just using it to prove a point about double standards though. Had a whit guy gone off and used questionable ethnic names no matter the context, youd have everyone and his uncle screaming racism. I agree with you though, people are too hung up on this sort of thing. I am not one of them. I hope you realize the point i was making there.

And i hope some of us learn from that example and apply it to everyday life. This whole thread is about how i am sick of the double standards that are routinely applied when it comes to race in this country.

quote:

I agree with you though, people are too hung up on this sort of thing. I am not one of them. I hope you realize the point i was making there.

And that is true...there always and always will be...

Fair enough Jayx1, I get the point and can see why you wanted to make it. But I'm not the right guy to direct that to. I'm not one of the type of immigrants who jumps up and screams racism everytime something doesn't go my way. And I would not have complained if someone referred to me using a term I used to describe myself. If anything, I think political correctness beyond a certain point actually hurts more than it helps. For instance, I think not pointing out differences among races or sexes is more wrong than doing so. If you don't acknowledge the differences, it's as though you are saying ther's something wrong with having those different features.

Anyway, as previously mentioned, I myself do agree that "affirmative action" is reverse racism and that Canada's Christian and English\French tradition should be preserved. And I agree with the original point of your thread that if minority children are breaking the rules more and hence getting kicked out of school, well too bad. (I don't know if the "zero tolerance" is such a good idea, but I agree that its overall effect should be the issue and not how many kids of what race are getting kicked out, unless there is concern that non-minority children who are also breaking the rules are being allowed to get away with it....)

By the way, I regularly point out to other Iranians or immigrants of other races who complain about racism, etc. that they should keep their expectations in context and realize the racist attitudes they have themselves. But the overall point is not to compare white people being racist versus non-white people being racist. The overall issue is that we should make sure that the SYSTEM is not racist. You can never get into people's heads and control their thoughts, but if we can at least make it unacceptable to be systematically racist, the people will change with time.

By the way, LOL, I AM white. I'm Persian, from the Arian race, and meet the definition of "white". HaHa, bet you most people don't know that Persians were originally from the same Arian race half of which went to Europe 5000 years ago. All that boring history shoved down my throat as a kid comes in handy after all, LOL.

I dont believe in races, i believe in cultures. We have very distinct cultures around the world. For example Saddam looks like he could very well be an old italian grandfather. Race is irrelevant. I wish the government and society would understand this and scrap affirmative action among other things.

It's truly sad how many people still cling to the backwards ideals of multiculturalism and affirmative action.

The problem isn't that minorities (who are now basically majorities in this ethnically-saturated country) don't have the right opportunities, it's that they don't take them. And the reason they don't take them is (surprise surprise!) because they know they don't have to, because they'll get special treatment based on their minority status. There is also the fact that they have this nonsensical rhetoric driven into their heads day after day and eventually start to wallow in self-pity instead of being pro-active, convincing themselves psychologically that they can never amount to anything because of their race. Multiculturalist/equality policies are what cause racial groups to segregate themselves, identify with stereotypes, and become the "disadvantaged" groups that they are.

The negative effect of multiculturalism (not of immigration per se, but specifically the legally-enforcable "diversity" policies) on society has been proven again and again, which is the reason why a few European countries have been considering literally deporting their immigrants and immigrant families. But for some reason, the majority of Canadians still refuse to believe it. It's exasperating to talk to people who actually believe that the system here is against women and racial or ethnic minorities, people who actually believe that racism and/or sexism still exist in forms that can actually do any harm to them.

Individualism AKA "colour-blindness" is what we want. Equality is NOT the same thing, it is very nearly the opposite. Say it with me now folks, Individualism, not Equality. There is absolutely no sense whatsoever in forcing the population of each individual workplace or university to have the same statistical breakdown as the overall population of Canada. For those of you still spouting this gibberish, just exactly what is your rationale for it?

Hope I'm not the only one that's fed up with this nonsense. I whole-heartedly agree with the initial article.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut It's truly sad how many people still cling to the backwards ideals of multiculturalism and affirmative action. The problem isn't that minorities (who are now basically majorities in this ethnically-saturated country) don't have the right opportunities, it's that they don't take them. And the reason they don't take them is (surprise surprise!) because they know they don't have to, because they'll get special treatment based on their minority status. There is also the fact that they have this nonsensical rhetoric driven into their heads day after day and eventually start to wallow in self-pity instead of being pro-active, convincing themselves psychologically that they can never amount to anything because of their race. Multiculturalist/equality policies are what cause racial groups to segregate themselves, identify with stereotypes, and become the "disadvantaged" groups that they are. The negative effect of multiculturalism (not of immigration per se, but specifically the legally-enforcable "diversity" policies) on society has been proven again and again, which is the reason why a few European countries have been considering literally deporting their immigrants and immigrant families. But for some reason, the majority of Canadians still refuse to believe it. It's exasperating to talk to people who actually believe that the system here is against women and racial or ethnic minorities, people who actually believe that racism and/or sexism still exist in forms that can actually do any harm to them. Individualism AKA "colour-blindness" is what we want. Equality is NOT the same thing, it is very nearly the opposite. Say it with me now folks, Individualism, not Equality. There is absolutely no sense whatsoever in forcing the population of each individual workplace or university to have the same statistical breakdown as the overall population of Canada. For those of you still spouting this gibberish, just exactly what is your rationale for it? Hope I'm not the only one that's fed up with this nonsense. I whole-heartedly agree with the initial article.

YES! they know they don't have to, because they'll get special treatment based on their minority status > also, a huge problem in Germany!!

very good! - same goes for the rest of your argument! i couldn't have said it better!

quote:

Originally posted by disko-kandi YES! they know they don't have to, because they'll get special treatment based on their minority status > also, a huge problem in Germany!! very good! - same goes for the rest of your argument! i couldn't have said it better!

Wait, you agree with me? This is a historic moment! Just excuse me for a minute while I scratch my head trying to figure out what happened.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Wait, you agree with me? This is a historic moment! Just excuse me for a minute while I scratch my head trying to figure out what happened.

pffffttt!! LOL!! count yourself lucky my friend!

Something to think about ....

Globe and Mail

Dreams do come true:

20 years ago, a little girl in Somalia wanted to become a doctor when she grew up. Yesterday, Fahima Osman became the first Canadian-trained MD of the country's largest African community

By ERIN ANDERSSEN
Saturday, May 15, 2004 - Page A1

When Fahima Osman was 6, she vowed to her mother that she would become a doctor.

"God willing," her mother had answered, "you will be." It was, then,
the wide-eyed boast of a little girl, who did not know that her family would end up fleeing to a new country as Somali refugees five years later, spending their last penny on the trip, abandoning their every possession, but for a few bags and a framed wedding picture.

But the dream held -- through all-night study sessions squeezed between part-time jobs to help pay the bills, against the high-school teachers who doubted her, even when she looked around and realized that she would be the first.

For 20 years, the dream held.

Yesterday, with her parents and cousins and eight siblings watching
from the audience at Hamilton Place, Fahima Osman stood with her classmates from McMaster University in Hamilton, Ont., and recited the words of the Hippocratic oath to make it official: she is now the first Canadian-trained doctor of the country's largest African community.

"She is famous," said Abdi Osman, a program co-ordinator at Dixon
Community Services in Toronto, which serves mainly Somali newcomers.

Mr. Osman (no relation) calls Dr. Osman "a role model for the youth" of a refugee community that is still young and struggling, with an average adult income of about $15,000, according to the 2001 census. In the past decade, Somali Torontonians have formed outreach associations, started restaurants, celebrated the first wave of university graduates. But they have gone without a doctor who could speak to them in their own language, who understood their predominantly Muslim culture -- until now.

"We congratulate her with our hearts. It is a great thing, to turn a
refugee into a doctor. It is practical evidence that whoever wants to
achieve the highest positions in this country can do so."

In July, Dr. Osman begins her residency in general surgery at the
Toronto General Hospital.

The residency is a five-year program for which, in true character, she had already begun studying, even before she had written her final seven-hour exam for medical school on Tuesday. "I have to look at it as a journey,'' she said. "I am just finishing one part, and looking forward to the next part."

And planning, always planning, how she will make her mark -- both in
Canada, the country that welcomed her family, and in Somalia, where the people so desperately need her skills.

Since The Globe and Mail profiled Dr. Osman last June as part of the
New Canada series, her story has been told and retold on Somali websites around the world. She once Googled her name, on a lark, and was shocked by the dozens of sites that bounced back with the details of her life -- how her father, Adam, scrimped and saved his way out of the desert, and found work in the United Arab Emirates; how the young family came to Canada after his job ended because they could not go home to civil war; how the nine Osman children were told, no matter how tight the budget, they were expected to get a "brand-name'' education. And setting the course, as the eldest,
was Dr. Osman, with her relentless work ethic, and compassion.

"I am feeling fantastic," her father said of her graduation. "Her title is now Dr. Osman. It is a long way to come."

"It is a dream, finally," sighed her mother, Zahra, who first pulled
the bulging McMaster envelope from the mailbox, under the noonday sun on June 4, 2000. She has gotten used to being introduced around the city as Dr. Osman's mother.

When she was first interviewed last year, Dr. Osman expressed her
disappointment with not being able to find a mentor; she was promptly
contacted by Andy Smith, the head of general surgery at Sunnybrook and Women's Hospital, who has become a close adviser. "I was struck by her dynamism and focus," Dr. Smith said. "In many ways, she is emblematic of all that is right in this country.'' Flooded by e-mail, she is currently in regular contact with about 75 young immigrants, many of Somali origin, who are hoping to follow her path into medical school. She typically spends one day of each weekend, just responding to e-mail. Their questions, she says, sound so much like the ones she had when she was first trying to get in.

"When you see the competition, you feel so hopeless, you just want to give up," she recalls. "I wanted to show them that I am just an average girl, I worked hard and I got in."

But what really got Dr. Osman thinking was a letter she received from her 10-year-old cousin back in Somalia, who told her that he would also like to be a doctor some day. "The thing is," she says, "it is impossible for him,really. There are no medical schools there." So Dr. Osman plans to split up her residency with a year-long masters degree in medical education or a related program so that she can work at a teaching hospital, and share her knowledge during regular stints back in Somalia.

She has a new dream now: that some day, she might see the opening of
Somalia's first medical school.

I find myself in full agreeance with DigniNut's post....hey, now we actually think alike on something. This is where my conservative side comes out...but of course, certain people in this thread call it "racism and ignorance."

I find it funny that ArcticBoy just glazed over my comments about how the common Arabic view (at least from what I've seen in my experience) on Canadian society and values is purely disrespectful. I know this doesn't apply to all Arabs in Canada, but I see it first hand way too much. I'm sorry, but the way Arab women are treated is in direct conflict with our laws. How is it NOT racist when an arab guy tells me my society is shit, we have no family values, our women are all whores and that they should be good like Arab girls? It's fucking ridiculous. People can come here all they want...and although we TOLERATE (key word here) your religions and customs, they should never (and hopefully WILL never) supercede the laws and customs that led to the formation of this country. I'm not even religious, but I say it's just too fucking bad that much of Canada's past is rooted in Christianity.

Multicultarism doesn't mean sweeping out the old in favour of the new...it means acceptance and toleration, but far too many immigrants I know don't think that is enough. On the other hand, I've met quite a few people who are just happy to be here and respect this country's past and traditions. I don't have too much of problem with welcoming hard working people to this nation, but the building blocks of this country (yes, including the monarchy) should be protected at all costs. Sure, it's a British institution, but the lion's share of Canada's identity lies with Britain.

Anyway, this is getting too long...but about OSAP. I'm lucky that I have a good enough job to get through university without needing loans. But I was sweating it there in first year big time...and I almost had a heart attack when they estimated me at ZERO. If my friend's leech family is getting government money for just about everything, then I should bloody well be able to get a loan for school. Does anybody remember a university survey that asked your ethnicity before starting first year? What the hell is that? I thought university acceptance is gained on marks alone...I guess not.

See, I knew it was a hopeless cause trying to help you see your ignorance, but people can't say I didn't try.

Why don't you go back and read my post again, all your issues were acknowledged and answered. Either you just don't get it, or you choose not to.

This is why I didn't want to "debate" your points initially, it was clear from your post that this was going to be the result. I still don't regret giving you the benefit of the doubt, once.

Ah well, C'est la vie.

hey! fine u guys. go over my head! LOL! ...i'll post more later. i gotta go and chill. this is way to stressful for a beautiful sat. nite.

quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy See, I knew it was a hopeless cause trying to help you see your ignorance, but people can't say I didn't try. Why don't you go back and read my post again, all your issues were acknowledged and answered. Either you just don't get it, or you choose not to. This is why I didn't want to "debate" your points initially, it was clear from your post that this was going to be the result. I still don't regret giving you the benefit of the doubt, once. Ah well, C'est la vie.

so we obviously disagree on what exactly multicultarism is. Just because you DISAGREE with me doesn't make me ignorant. I will probably never vote Conservative, but according to your logic, they are all ignorant because they want to lessen immigration?

quote:

Originally posted by disko-kandi hey! fine u guys. go over my head! LOL! ...i'll post more later. i gotta go and chill. this is way to stressful for a beautiful sat. nite.

Silke, I'm not sure what your point is with the article. I have never contested that immigrants have ample opportunity to succeed in Canada, especially if they come here at a young age. Didn't mean to ignore you, just didn't have any comments.

DJ Smitty, listen, I don't want to offend you, so I'm not going to respond to your comments any longer because we're obviously not even on the same wavelength here. Sorry, I just don't see any chance of the conversation going anywhere productive.

As for DigiNut, I'm confused. Exactly what "special" treatment are minorities receiving in canada? I am not aware of any such things, so educate me. The whole "affirmative action" thing is really just a U.S. thing, I'm not aware of any official such laws here, are there? The problems in some European countries are quite different as is the social make-up and structure, not to mention they are not immigration-based countries. So it's not logical to apply those situations directly to Canada.

Any I don't agree with you that multiculturalism has been shown not to work. I don't buy the European example. I think it's working just fine here in Canada, better than anywhere else. Would you rather have a melting pot scenario as in the U.S.? You couldn't possibly think that's working better. The tensions and racial isolation is much worse there.

quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy The whole "affirmative action" thing is really just a U.S. thing, I'm not aware of any official such laws here, are there? The problems in some European countries are quite different as is the social make-up and structure, not to mention they are not immigration-based countries. So it's not logical to apply those situations directly to Canada. Any I don't agree with you that multiculturalism has been shown not to work. I don't buy the European example. I think it's working just fine here in Canada, better than anywhere else. Would you rather have a melting pot scenario as in the U.S.? You couldn't possibly think that's working better. The tensions and racial isolation is much worse there.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Don't reply if you wish...but at least know that you're incorrect on a few things. Affirmative action was first put in place by Nixon in the 70s I believe, but was mainly designed to accomodate African Americans. As for Canada, I think it was the NDP who put employment equity in place in the early 90s, but has since been removed. However, the policy, specifically in Ontario, is still widely in effect. Employers, feeling the need to avoid bad publicity and possibly court cases, hire enough minorities and women to basically shut them up. The most obvious cases are police and firemen as I said in an earlier post. Of course, we could get into a whole discussion about how an RCMP officer of Sikh descent, fought and won a court battle to have the right to wear his turban while on duty and there is the issue of ceremonial daggers by Sikh children in school.

How are European countries different? They are facing the same problems we are...A LOW BIRTH RATE. Germany is a great example...they let in hordes of Turks to fill employment every year. The result is that by 2040, it is estimated that less than half the population will be of German descent. I think it quite reasonable that the German government, in an attempt to protect their culture, is trying to fix their problem by limiting immigration, encouraging natural popluation growth and possibly deporting immigrants. Canada is in the same situation, though not as drastic.

You might think it's working fine here...many people do not. I have a lot of problems with Americans and their government, but at least they are PROUD TO BE AMERICAN. They don't tear up their history because it contains a few bad spots (Indians and slavery) but many Canadians (including whites) rejoice in doing so. A perfect example is my friend...born here to Greek parents. Of course, he thinks of himself as Greek, not Canadian. "it's about the blood after all" he says. I know so many minorities like that...even though they are born here and can't speak their hertiage's language, they don't feel proud to be Canadian. That's insulting to me...my dad and his line are English...and while I'm proud to be of that descent, I'm Canadian first and always. It all goes back to the respect issue....having multiculturalism allows people to feel they don't have to be Canadian. The result is that we have a very FRACTURED society with people always bitching about something.

quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy Silke, I'm not sure what your point is with the article. I have never contested that immigrants have ample opportunity to succeed in Canada, especially if they come here at a young age. Didn't mean to ignore you, just didn't have any comments.

the article is on neutral ground. it was merely in a think piece. nothing more, nothing less to this discussion. i just thought it was interesting and kind of related to what we're talking about. c'est tout!

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