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-- Fahrenheit 9/11 >> Michael Moore's new movie out June 25th
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Originally posted by MezzicanTrancEr I would like to add that it really sucks that we live in a country now where someone will get flamed for what they believe...I mention that because I know someone is going to jump on me fast and in a not so nice way. I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen. It's pretty ironic it'll be from a "open-minded liberal". I stress the quotations because thank goodness most TA's here are respectful. I opted out on my two cents and decided to give you about a dollar a change worth of my opinion,

Very keen on predicting the future. oh does it all of a sudden suck now? or has it always sucked? howabout when it sucks to live in a country when someone will get flamed for being a person of color? oh but that only sucks for those stupid minorities. And what about the Morale of this country? Personally I think Americans have to stop being such pussies and actually step up to all the things they've done wrong. There seems to be a consensus that if you don't talk about things, then they'll just go away. So when people like Michael Moore, and even Dave Chappelle talk about sensitive racial issues, problems with the government, people just flame them. And honestly, I am not completely against republicans. i personally just think bush is an idiot. just look at the way he talks. i would not mind any other intelligent republican to take the presidency.

(by the way, i was born here 19 years ago, and even till this day i still get racist remarks from wiseasses. still sucks for me i guess.)

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Originally posted by trancinchink Very keen on predicting the future. oh does it all of a sudden suck now? or has it always sucked? howabout when it sucks to live in a country when someone will get flamed for being a person of color? oh but that only sucks for those stupid minorities. And what about the Morale of this country? Personally I think Americans have to stop being such pussies and actually step up to all the things they've done wrong. There seems to be a consensus that if you don't talk about things, then they'll just go away. So when people like Michael Moore, and even Dave Chappelle talk about sensitive racial issues, problems with the government, people just flame them. And honestly, I am not completely against republicans. i personally just think bush is an idiot. just look at the way he talks. i would not mind any other intelligent republican to take the presidency. (by the way, i was born here 19 years ago, and even till this day i still get racist remarks from wiseasses. still sucks for me i guess.)

i'm first generation, both my parents were born in Mexico so back off with the "stupid minority" banter. And when you say "AMERICANS" it seems to me that you are exluding yourself, because you said, "THEY have to stop being pussies...", as in everyone else but you. You are American too, right?

Bringing up the morale in this country is much more than, hey look at how big my balls are, nothing gets me down!". I teach elementary in inner-city Baltimore and my students and their parents face a serious deficit in their morale. Would you tell these people to "stop being pussies", step it up themseleves and get it right? I don't think so. Would you also feel it right to make a movie focusing on all reasons many of their kids drop out of school (50% here in Baltimore), and end up in jail, (20% of young African American males)? Of course not because we are AWARE of the problems -what this country lacks is problem solvers. Moore is not a problem solver, and he's not stating anything we don't already know. However, he does have a tendancy, (as i said in my previous post) to skew MANY "truths".


Anyway again, I personally don't think Bush is an idiot. He has lived a life of privledge, true and many things have been handed to him - but how many of our presidents passed have lived the same life? Also, speaking eloquently doesn't mean you're smart and it doesn't mean you're stupid eaither. Some people are GREAT public speakers, and many are not. And don't forget that Bush has his own staff of writers so lets stop with the "look at the way he talks". Instead try to be a little more intelligent in your assessment and look at what he has done while in office and what he has not. You seem to have made up your mind that's he's "dumb" and that's fine. The country seems to be split on that decision. But be a little more informed before you make a comment like that.

* I've had to edit this post a little because my spelling sucks, hope it doesn't mean i'm dumb!

yea, and i have looked at what he's done. absolutely nothing and as for the whole "American" thing, i'm pretty sure you can imply that i was talking about the people who run the country, not the common citizens. and for the bringing up morale thing. yes, i think if something is wrong it should be brought up and criticized. thats the difference between the eastern way of thinking and western way of thinking. i can honestly say the way my parents brought me up to criticize and isolate my weaknesses and faults have actually made me stronger. asian parents have been known to be strict, hardworking, and harsh in judgement. that is why so many asians are respectful, successful, intelligent, and hardworking. i'm not saying we're the perfect group of people cuz that is not true, but there must be a reason why when people think of asian, they don't think of "drop out" and "jail". so many of us came here with absolutely nothing (and i really mean nothing), but we built our respect through our actions.

...yes but don't forget that African-Americans have been the most battered minority group in the history of this country, (i.e. slavery). In addition, this country has been setup so that many African-Americans go to school in "inner city" areas and to the worst public schools.

from your boy Michael Moore himself (..and one thing i actually do agree on):

"African Americans have been on the lowest rung of the economic ladder since the day they were beaten and dragged here in chains - and they have never made it off that rung, not for a single damn day. Every other immigrant group who has landed here has been able to advance from the bottom to the middle and upper levels of our society. Even Native Americans, who are among the poorest of the poor, have fewer children living in poverty than African-Americans"
- from "Stupid White Men" pg 62.

You said something about your parents being "strict and hardworking". Sounds like MANY of the parents of the kids I teach - yet somehow their kids STILL can't get ahead...Our schools are set up to ensure that African-American kids in inner city schools fail and I know because I teach in one of these communities. No matter how much we want for our kids, someone higher up prevents us, somehow, someway, from achieving our goals. From biased tests, to promotional standards, to lack of funding, to schools that are left in shambles, to administrative red tape, it's all rigged. My kids are convinced that no one cares about their education, and why should they think otherwise when they see things like this. Unless you went to an inner-city or rural public school with these problems, you have no idea how hard it is to get ahead no matter how much your parents push you. That tells me it's more than how you're brought up. That speaks more about the opportunities you're given, or in this case NOT GIVEN.

...and it's just me but I would NEVER compare the challenges and struggles Mexicans have gone through in this country, with that of African-Americans - I don't think u should either.

btw: i think this fits very well here from me....




some random hardcore anti bush add:

Bush's father's company, The Carlyle Group, an investment firm with ties to defense contractors, just bought out a major cinema chain with many theatres in NY: Loews Cineplex.

Presumably, they are doing this in an effort to stifle movies they disagree with or are damaging to them, such as the global warming movie, and MM's new movie.

Just watch what happens next.

This is fascism in action folks.

This is what Eisenhower warned us about, and he was certainly no hippie liberal.

http://washington.bizjournals.com/w.../21/daily4.html

quote:

>> Carlyle goes to the movies Jeff Clabaugh Staff Reporter District {of Columbia}-based investment firm The Carlyle Group is one of three investors that have agreed to buy Loews Cineplex Entertainment from Onex Corp. and Oaktree Capital Management for $1.46 billion. The buyout is being led by Bain Capital, an investment firm started in 1984 by Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney. .... Carlyle was founded in 1987. Its directors have included former President George Bush, {Colin} Powell, James Baker and former British Prime Minister John Major. <<

The Carlyle Group is a defense contractor, or rather an investment company with ties to, and lobbyists working for, defense contractors profiteering handsomely off the war in Iraq. When Poppy Bush dies, Jr. stands to inherit millions or even billions of dollars from his own war.

Since Carlyle is a privately held company, it is not subject to the same regulations as publicly traded companies. This allows them free reign to conduct corrupt business practices under the radar.

Bush's father is still a major shareholder in the company, though he recently quit his position on the board of directors when his ties to the Saudi and Bin Laden families began to come to light.


James Baker, one of the heads of the Carlyle Group and a close friend of the Bush family, is also defending the Saudis against the 9/11 victims' families:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067906/




The Bin Laden family was a major shareholder in the Carlyle Group until only recently.

quote:

MIDEAST TERROR WAR ADDS URGENCY TO CARLYLE GROUP CONTROVERSY Former President Bush Works for International Investment Firm With Ties To Saudi Arabia Company Had Bin Laden Family Connections http://www.judicialwatch.org/1685.shtml

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http://www.fromthewilderness.com/fr...ladensbail.html Bin Ladens Bail on Carlyle Group FTW, Oct. 26, 2001, 1700 PDT - The New York Times is today reporting that, "The Saudi family of Osama bin Laden is severing its financial ties with the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm known for its connections to influential Washington political figures, executives who have been briefed on the decision said today." Some of those influential figures include George H.W. Bush and his son, our President. The Times story indicates that the decision by the bin Ladens was the result of "public controversy" about the family�s investments in the nation�s 11th largest defense contractor. The Carlyle Group employs former President George Bush, who met with the bin Laden family in Saudi Arabia in 1998 and 2000. As a result of explosive increases in the US defense budget the Carlyle Group is facing enormous windfall profits. And there is still strong suspicion that, in spite of mainstream reports indicating otherwise, the family has not severed all ties with the alleged mastermind of the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center. One of the most detailed investigative reports on bin Laden and Bush business connections was published by FTW just weeks ago. We know that it has received worldwide attention and close scrutiny within the Bush Administration. The story is at http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/carlyle.html.

http://baltimorechronicle.com/media3_oct01.shtml

quote:

Republican-controlled Carlyle Group poses serious Ethical Questions for Bush Presidents, but Baltimore Sun ignores it by Alice Cherbonnier -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AN IMPORTANT TENET of journalism is that you should always ask, �Who benefits?� In the case of a war, the answers to this question become of paramount importance. Suppose, for example, that profits from military contracting were to go in the pockets of a former U.S. President whose son (and a presumed future heir) is now President? Suppose further that such profits escalate in times of conflict. Wouldn�t this be of concern to the public? Wouldn�t you expect the media to be all over such an important ethical (not to mention moral, and maybe legal) angle? Though described by the Industry Standard as �the world�s largest private equity firm,� with over $12 billion under management, chances are readers haven�t ever heard of The Carlyle Group. Isn�t that a little odd, considering it is run by a veritable who's who of former Republican political leaders. Former Defense Secretary Frank Carlucci is Carlyle�s chairman and managing director (who, by the way, was college roommate of the current Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld). And that partners in this mammoth venture include former U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker III, George Soros, Fred Malek (George H.W. Bush�s campaign manager, forced to resign when it was revealed he was Nixon�s �Jew counter�), and�presumably�George H.W. Bush? We say �presumably� because the privately-held Carlyle doesn�t have to reveal information about its partners or investments to the SEC or to anyone else. Our former President is reported to be active in seeking investments for the Carlyle Group from the Asian market, and word is he�s paid between $80,000 to $100,000 per presentation. All told, Carlyle has about 420 partners all over the globe, from Saudi princes to the former president of the Philippines. Its investments run heavily in the defense sector; they make money from military conflicts and weapons spending. But who in Baltimore knows about it? A search of the Baltimore Sun�s website reveals no mentions whatsoever of The Carlyle Group, though it�s been around since 1988 and has been involved in numerous buy-outs and buy-ins, sometimes with SEC-regulated companies that have to report these things. Contrast this news blackout with the Washington Post�s 378 mentions, and the New York Times� 332 hits. Even the Philadelphia Inquirer weighed in with 15 mentions. Not only have some newspapers and magazines brought The Carlyle Group out of the shadows it prefers, but this enterprise has attracted the attention of The Center for Public Integrity and Judicial Watch, both of which have concerns about the ethical propriety of having high-placed former government officials�trained at taxpayer expense, too�out there reaping over 20% to 40% a year by working their connections. You have to wonder if these former public servants are just simply greedy, or if they�re telling themselves they�re true patriots by doing behind-the-scenes cloak-and-dagger stuff. This is a big story. We were wondering if, in the wake of current events, we were the only newspaper that was asking that question, �Who benefits?� And then we found that the Wall Street Journal was asking the right questions, too, and we were vastly relieved not to be left hanging out to dry. On Sept. 27, the WSJ published a �Special Report: Aftermath of Terror� with the headline �Bin Laden Family Could Profit From a Jump In Defense Spending Due to Ties to U.S. Bank.� The �bank� is actually The Carlyle Group (and by the way, we peons can�t invest in it, and it sure isn�t taking deposits from the general public). The lead sentence reads: �If the U.S. boosts defense spending in its quest to stop Osama bin Laden�s alleged terrorist activities, there may be one unexpected beneficiary: Mr. bin Laden�s family.� And, though the WSJ curiously did not mention this, another beneficiary may be George H.W. Bush�s family. Copyright � 2003 The Baltimore Chronicle and The Sentinel. All rights reserved. We invite your comments, criticisms and suggestions.

These are the folks who are going to be deciding what movies you're allowed to watch from now on:

http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html



George Soros also seems to be a shady character, and I don't trust the man either.

But, he's certainly in the same league as the Bush family in terms of trying to have it both ways.

He's a partner in Carlyle, and also funds Moveon.org to some extent.

Bush's grandfather helped fund the Nazis, and sent his son off to fight on the front lines.

Bush Sr was behind the Iran/Contra scandal to a significant extent, and also funded and armed both Saddam and Osama Bin Laden.


The Bush family talks tough on terrorism, yet defends those who helped empower the 9/11 terrorists - the Saudis.

Be sure to watch this Dutch documentary on the CARLYLE Group:


http://www.informationclearinghouse...article3995.htm

(It's mostly in English, and the first part in Dutch has an English transcript)

Warehouse of info about the corruption of the CARLYLE Group:

http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html


The secret flight of Bin Laden and Saudi family members ordered by the BUsh Administration after 9/11 has been confirmed by Tampa Airport officials, and by documents released under the Freedom of Information Act (I'm surprised that law hasn't been repealed yet).


http://www.houseofbush.com/index.php



Don't forget to also read journalist Craig Unger's important book about the BUsh Family/Saudi connection.

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Originally posted by DaveSZ Be sure to watch this Dutch documentary on the CARLYLE Group: http://www.informationclearinghouse...article3995.htm (It's mostly in English, and the first part in Dutch has an English transcript) Warehouse of info about the corruption of the CARLYLE Group: http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html The secret flight of Bin Laden and Saudi family members ordered by the BUsh Administration after 9/11 has been confirmed by Tampa Airport officials, and by documents released under the Freedom of Information Act (I'm surprised that law hasn't been repealed yet). http://www.houseofbush.com/index.php Don't forget to also read journalist Craig Unger's important book about the BUsh Family/Saudi connection.

Here try this on for size, Mr Hitchens is a card carrying liberal, he writes for Vanity Fair and has written an article based upon facts, not little exerpts from blatently biased organizations. Mr Hitchens is a scholar not a comedian or filmaker, and while i am not a great fan of his (having such a liberal viewpoint), he at least articulates his point and relies on facts not heresay or in the case of Moore, blatant lies. So do yourself a favor and read some facts, stop looking for what you want to hear. Again this is not coming from a conservative hack. He has written many columns dissing Bush and other right wingers, but he has the credulty to expose lies on both sides of the table. So expand your mind and read this:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/


Mizzuno

maby its because im at work, but the link doesnt work

quote:

Originally posted by sandstorm03 maby its because im at work, but the link doesnt work

Probably...


Mizz

quote:

Originally posted by mizzuno Here try this on for size, Mr Hitchens is a card carrying liberal, he writes for Vanity Fair and has written an article based upon facts, not little exerpts from blatently biased organizations. Mr Hitchens is a scholar not a comedian or filmaker, and while i am not a great fan of his (having such a liberal viewpoint), he at least articulates his point and relies on facts not heresay or in the case of Moore, blatant lies. So do yourself a favor and read some facts, stop looking for what you want to hear. Again this is not coming from a conservative hack. He has written many columns dissing Bush and other right wingers, but he has the credulty to expose lies on both sides of the table. So expand your mind and read this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/ Mizzuno

Hey man regardless of political parties, it's always great to read things from someone who presents facts and not half-truths. The TRUTH of the matter is that our government, whether it be run by democrats or republicans, has a very different agenda than that of the general public. I sent this article to some of my "liberal" and democratic friends and they found it very interesting...

as you told DAVEsz...thanks to the internet it's all too easy to find editorials or articles on stuff that "we want to hear". We hardly, however, are able to hear from people who INTELLIGENTlY look at BOTH sides of the issue and aren't afraid to express their opinions....THANKS!

Can all that is presented in the movie be taken as truth and fact?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5251769/site/newsweek/
According to this article in Newsweek, there are some inconsistencies with what the 9/11 Commission has found and reported, and other items on the record

jc, it was just a post about a damn movie, how the f^$& did it turn into this?!

Well, i'm not quite sure what you mean by "turn into this", it's actually one of the more civil and informative threads I have seen.

Mizzz

quote:

Originally posted by LuNaSeA jc, it was just a post about a damn movie, how the f^$& did it turn into this?!

This post should actually be in the political section. But other than that it is a very good informative one. Thanks for the info guys.

BTW the Carlyle Group had George Bush Sr as an advisor until as recent as 2003.

quote:

from carlyle themselves: 8. Is former President George H.W. Bush affiliated with The Carlyle Group? No. Former President Bush was at one time the Senior Advisor to the Carlyle Asia Advisory Board but retired from that position in October 2003. He holds no other positions at Carlyle. and http://www.thecarlylegroup.com/eng/geo/news-2792.html The Carlyle Group to Buy Verizon Hawaii for $1.65 billion - New Services, Jobs, and Capital Investment Expected with Transition to Locally Managed Company

And last thing, if you do some name searching of some of the members of this group, some will have ties to telecommunications companies.

quote:

Originally posted by MezzicanTrancEr The TRUTH of the matter is that our government, whether it be run by democrats or republicans, has a very different agenda than that of the general public. I sent this article to some of my "liberal" and democratic friends and they found it very interesting...

True.

The corporations have, to a large degree, taken over the machinery of both major political parties.


With the Republican Party, the melding of corporation and state began in the early 1900s, forcing Teddy Roosevelt to leave and form his own 'Bull Moose' Progressive Party.

The corporations have also recently taken hold of the machinery of the Democratic Party through their conduit the DLC.

Bill Clinton actually did more to dismantle FDR's New Deal than Reagan did, all the while herding the poor and African Americans into the voting booth.

Nixon and Eisenhower were far more progressive/liberal than Bill (especially Nixon).

The last time we were at this point in terms of monopolies running the government was in the 1920s and 30s.

Ask any one of your older relatives who lived through the Depression what that was like.



Speaking of not representing the public at large:





When taxes are cut for billionaires, the overall tax burden shifts onto the backs of working people.



I don't have a great deal of hope about Sen. Kerry on either the Iraq war or controlling the power of monopolies, but since he prosecuted Iran/Contra and the BCCI scandal, at least he doesn't seem to be a crook...


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB113/

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

I belong to either party and don't like either to be honest with you. But anyone who makes movies based on stretched/skewed facts or simply fabricates information is a CON. He did the same with Colombine, combining pieces of interviews from interviews that happened BEFORE Columbine. Editing is a powerful tool and you can take anything and make it into whatever you want. And the fact that the media is swallowing it whole (except for the few who actually know what a fraud Michael Moore is) is because the media is mostly liberal and would do anything (truth OR lies) to make their case. Most Democrats know that the movie is a bunch of twisted around information to make the Reps look bad but don't care because in politics, the ends justify the means. You couldn't drag me to see the movie. I don't like Bush much but twisted propoganda for people who swallow it whole and accept it for truth pisses me off even more.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ True. The corporations have, to a large degree, taken over the machinery of both major political parties. With the Republican Party, the melding of corporation and state began in the early 1900s, forcing Teddy Roosevelt to leave and form his own 'Bull Moose' Progressive Party. The corporations have also recently taken hold of the machinery of the Democratic Party through their conduit the DLC. Bill Clinton actually did more to dismantle FDR's New Deal than Reagan did, all the while herding the poor and African Americans into the voting booth. Nixon and Eisenhower were far more progressive/liberal than Bill (especially Nixon). The last time we were at this point in terms of monopolies running the government was in the 1920s and 30s. Ask any one of your older relatives who lived through the Depression what that was like. Speaking of not representing the public at large: When taxes are cut for billionaires, the overall tax burden shifts onto the backs of working people.

Billionaires??, what are you talking about, lets start presenting facts here, there is not a billionaire tax bracket, the highest tax bracket starts at 80,000, hardly "rich", then you must take into account where you live in the country, for example I live in NY where 80k gets you no where , in fact 150k is just enough to make it without living paycheck to paycheck, so lets get something straight, when we talk about "the rich" its anyone making over 80k. There aren't many billionaires in the world let alone the US, the highest concentration is actually in Moscow. And you seem to have this aversion to corporations, aren't these the same corporations that employ the citizens of the US, I think you're in a catch 22 with that arguement, in my opinion its more a symbiosis. That graph is largely irrelevant, as the top 50% of wage earners pay almost 97% of the taxes, I think thats a bit disparate, for most socialists or quasi socialists, redistribution of wealth is the norm, I believe we tried that experiment over 40 years and it didn't work out so well. Please keep the facts coming...


Mizzuno