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Most of my dad's monthly paycheck goes towards child support (not me). He got so fucked over by the court that he ended up paying for 2 kids, even though only 1 is his.

Sorry guys, but one's children, whether adopted or not, shouldn't be considered a chore. One should be more than happy to care for them. Well, both the mother and father should care for them whether together or separated, since they are both responsible.

yes but sometimes the courts dont even allow fatherly access. The courts see the dad as many women do, nothing but a bottomless bank account. Nobody is saying that people shouldnt take responsibilty. What is being said is that the unfairness and rampant sexism against men should be ended.

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Originally posted by Allegory I must say that I have never seen so much generalization in my life. Yes, men are suffer just as women do and yes, some are overlooked but wake up guys! The ratio of violence and mis-conduct towards men pales in comparison to that of women. Some of you have taken a subject deemed of great objective discussion and once again, have turned it into this vehement war of the sexes. Do you even know this male they speak of personally; yes, he could mal-treated but maybe not. The point is there are infinite possibilities to every case and it's alarming to see TAs reduce themselves to un-exposed elementary students. I would hope that someday we could respect each others opinions and not reduce peoples opinions as bunk! jayx1, I won't even bother.

well said sally,

and Sid, i didn't say that the only reason for divorce was mistreatment of women, but it certainly is a major cause.

I HAVE NO IDEA WAS YOU SAY THAT DIVORCE LASW FAVOUR WOMEN. where are your statistics?

yes, women are more likely to get custody of children, but all of your stories about men getting snowed and women living like rich bitches are merely anecdotal. divorce has an ADVERSE effect on women, according to Statistical Abstract of the United States,

Honestly, I think what renders people broke is not preparing researching one's case to alleviate a lot of circumstances. Legal council is really expensive, I know this from experience with other issues in business. What's assisted my family and I is assuming the bulk of the responsibility of doing the legal research, because like many others we simply couldn't afford to pay a lawyer for every phone call, for discoveries, etc.

As a partner in a relatiionship, whether it be the male or female- if you're getting screwed then find ways to retaliate. this can be quite a convoluted process but if one's partner is callous enough to make render them in such an unfortunate situation w/o just cause, then they should invest in vindication.

I know of a few people close to me, who suffered many years of awful relationships, investing in the possibility that their partners would come around, and that their relationship would restore itself as it once was. After much sufferance, a lot of digging around and a lot of patience, they've won the battle.

As for alimony and child support, hopefully one day the system will change. But I do have suggestions for those who really want to instigate change is start lobbying, and writing. I'M DEAD SERIOUS! Seriously guys, If you want to be heard and this really bothers you then all of you, then gather your efforts and address this issue. I've worked for government long enough in the past to know that many voices resonate and do get heard. Another way to to get your point across is to make it publically known with a video camera, and get the media attention. This story may be your key to being heard.

I offer these suggestions because we may not be able to change policies immediately, but we can work with what we've got. If an individual knows their wife or husband is spending the money on crack then prove that they are by recording it. It is unfortunate that one has to devise such intricate ways to prove their due much in-justice, but if a person is a survivor then they will find a way to better their situation.

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Originally posted by Allegory I must say that I have never seen so much generalization in my life. Yes, men are suffer just as women do and yes, some are overlooked but wake up guys! The ratio of violence and mis-conduct towards men pales in comparison to that of women. Some of you have taken a subject deemed of great objective discussion and once again, have turned it into this vehement war of the sexes. Do you even know this male they speak of personally; yes, he could mal-treated but maybe not. The point is there are infinite possibilities to every case and it's alarming to see TAs reduce themselves to un-exposed elementary students. I would hope that someday we could respect each others opinions and not reduce peoples opinions as bunk! jayx1, I won't even bother.

well said sally,

and Sid, i didn't say that the only reason for divorce was mistreatment of women, but it certainly is a major cause.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHY YOU SAY THAT DIVORCE LAWS FAVOUR WOMEN. where are your statistics?

yes, women are more likely to get custody of children, but all of your stories about men getting snowed and women living like rich bitches are merely anecdotal. divorce has an ADVERSE effect on women, according to Statistical Abstract of the United States, "Four times as many divorced women with children fell under the poverty line [as did] married women with children."

according to A Report Prepared by the National Economic Council
Interagency Working Group on Social Security "Divorced women are a growing share of the elderly population, and their poverty rate is higher than the overall elderly poverty rate"

according to the the Centre for Research on Aging and Gender, at Surrey University "Women aged over 65 who have previously split from their husbands lose out in terms of personal income and pension benefit", according to the leading researcher, Jay Ginn, adding that "that divorced women who have had children are the "bottom of the pile", because careers that could have earned private pensions have been interrupted."

according to a pair of studies--one conducted by researchers from the University of Michigan and Bowling Green State University, and the other from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, In the former report, published in The American Sociological Review, researchers used three three statistical tests to determine that "women who divorce...have significantly lower levels of family income and income-to-need ratios...than those who remain married."
Adding to the problems faced by divorced women who have custody of the children is the proverbial deadbeat dad who fails to pay child support. According to the Census Bureau, one-third of the kids whose fathers don't pay child support live in poverty.

******* Bartfield also found that "[e]ven if full compliance [with child support orders] were achieved, a sizable share of poor and near-poor divorced mothers would remain" in poverty.

The financial impact of divorce is greater for women than for men. The average income of female lone- parent families in 1995 was $27,721, as opposed to $40,974 for male lone-parent families. Statistics show that the income of women after separation and divorce drops 3 times whereas that of men rises an average of 7 times. The most affected are those women whom are parents of dependent children. As a result, the majority of children in separated and divorced households led by women are living most of their childhood in impoverished circumstances.





so all of you men may want to say how careful you should be in selecting a mate, but as you can see, the choice to marry and bear your children should also be heavily weighed for women.

Yes men suffer from divorce, but women and children can suffer financially as well, and greatly.

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Originally posted by Form&Funktion ^^^^^^^^ Saving child-birth, there are very little obstacles left when it comes to female career and promotion opportunity. Most companies provide equally sponsored and paid Maternity AND Praternity leaves. This means any woman has full ability to advance her own life, career and income if they so chose. I've seen many cases in my own office where the mother has duly gone back to her chosen job while the father has taken a leave for the children. Yet why is the same old cry of poverty succesfully used by women in courts when it is clear this is a defunct arguement.

I agree that many companies have gotten much better and making provsions for maternity and paternity leaved, but women are still at a disadavantage.

Women in Canada still earn less than 70% of men's income, with only 17% of women in high paying positions, while the majority are in low paying 'pink ghettos', with women dominating all but five of the 25 occupations at the bottom of the income scale (Statistics Canada).The gender inequity of earning power means that when it comes to a choice between what is best for each spouse's career, women more often sacrifice their own career for the sake of their husband's, and consequently, find themselves at a sharp economic disadvantage when it comes to divorce.

they way we value work in canada has to change. can someone please explain to me why janitorial staff make more than childcare workers, when childcare workers require a college diploma? If your (I'm asking anyone reading this)answer is something other than 'because jobs that are dominated by women generally pay less' I'd be really surious to hear it.

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Originally posted by charmscars divorce has an ADVERSE effect on women, according to Statistical Abstract of the United States,

Id say that divorce has an adverse effect on EVERYBODY involved

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Originally posted by charmscars Women in Canada still earn less than 70% of men's income, with only 17% of women in high paying positions,

LOL tell that to Quiznos head office!

I dont know where this stat comes from, how it's measured and applied. I have yet to hear of a woman getting less than a man. It would be interesting to see how they draw these conclusions considering salary is based on many varieties of things.

I'd have to verify sources, but a lot of unionized positions pay well because they participate in a position which is lucrative to the employer. For example a person who works for a giant such as Ford will make a great income and have benefits because such a corporation will have a union to protect them and ensure they are well compensated. Also, Ford relies on these workers to sell their merchandise to make their billions, so they can just walk if Ford decides not to play fair.

But this is all relative to economics and consumerism. A lot of government employees are well-compensated. Some daycare workers are too, pending if their location is in Rosedale and their Employer is human resource oriented.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 LOL tell that to Quiznos head office! I dont know where this stat comes from, how it's measured and applied. I have yet to hear of a woman getting less than a man. It would be interesting to see how they draw these conclusions considering salary is based on many varieties of things.

Haha work in the entertainment industry for a while and you'll definitely know what she's referring to.

The inequality in salary becomes a lot more visible when working in a position that isn't as succeptible to public scrutiny, such as an office, firm, entertainment- anything that doesn't attract attention to the public eye. Not government in Canada though; equality is very much the motto.

That may be one the reasons why you haven't heard of this. But believe me, its' blatantly there for many.

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Originally posted by Allegory Haha work in the entertainment industry for a while and you'll definitely know what she's referring to. The inequality in salary becomes a lot more visible when working in a position that isn't as succeptible to public scrutiny, such as an office, firm, entertainment- anything that doesn't attract attention to the public eye. Not government in Canada though; equality is very much the motto. That may be one the reasons why you haven't heard of this. But believe me, its' blatantly there for many.

I really dont want to hijack this thread but i want to table something. I work in a fairly large tech company and its completely equal with men vs women in management. The average age of the company is probably low 30s or high 20s. Because there are so many young people, everyone is pregnant.

Anyways, i thought i would just comment that allot of the women that are team leaders or managers are leaving for a year for maternity leave. It shocks the routine when so many of them leave and come back then leave again in a year to 2 years.
No matter how u cut it, it does have an impact. Dont get me wrong, i commend any woman that raises her child. Its the most important thing for a child imo but unfortunately i could see this being part of reason

That can be true, but now men can go on mat. leave too I guess pedning the father's desire to be with the newborn. That's what my boyfriends good friends did, and they really enjoyed it. It's partial mat. leave for both.

I've heard of some mom's who don't want the dad to go on mat. leave though

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Originally posted by charmscars some men are targetted unfairly and some women suffer greatly. yes some divorced men care deeply about there children, but there are those that do not. I work in insurance, and i can tell you about a guy who has company benefits and he has been ordered to put his kids on his policy. so what he does to his wife, is she, will have the dental payment assigned to the dentist to cover her kids dental work and he will go into his benefits and change the payment to go to him (this is legal btw) so the mom gets stuck paying out of pocket whrn his insurance company has covered it and he makes a profit off of the backs of his kids, so the mom can't afford to have her kids dental work done, she is no longer going to take them for annual dental checkups. so in this case, it is not bullshit, ppl can actually be this selfish.

Tara, anybody can pull a scam, in divorce or in any other walk of life. Yes, guys like this are fucked, but it's not the present-day divorce system that enables them to pull the scam, it's the insurance and medical system. This isn't evidence of a system biased toward men, just evidence that there are a lot of assholes out there, which I'll concede to you in a heartbeat.

And I'll point out also that many hardworking women who work AND take care of their kids because the dad is unfit end up getting screwed by the system.

The problem is that the system favours the lazy and stupid. The court's mandate for divorce is to allow both parties to "live in the same conditions as they were when they were married." This is a product of Socialist thinking and it doesn't take an expert to see the problem with it. The obvious reason for a divorce is - you guessed it - the marital conditions sucked!

So when a woman works, she's entitled to child support but not a lot of alimony, which is how it should be. It only looks sad and ridiculous in the face of the ones who don't work, but can - the lazy asses that couldn't or didn't hold up an honest job for more than 3 hours while they were married. The courts say to the man, well, you accepted this way of life during your marriage so you have to keep it this way. So she sits on her ass and gets a free salary.

The courts don't even stop to consider the remote possibility that they got divorced because she was lazy and didn't take proper care of the kids. Or the even more remote possibility that she only married him for money in the first place (let's not kid ourselves ladies, you yourselves may be above this type of thing but it sure as hell happens out there in the real world).

The way the system is structured essentially encourages women to be as lazy as possible during marriage because that nets the biggest payout in divorce. The less a woman worked while they were married, the more she's going to get in alimony payments. THAT'S what's so fucked up about the system. And don't try to tell me that if you reversed the roles, and the woman worked like a dog throughout the marriage and the man sat on the couch all day, that the woman would have to make the same kind of alimony payments to the man after getting a divorce. Because that just isn't true. It's happened, and the proportion of alimony isn't even close.

Perhaps it's not quite correct to say that the system favours women. It doesn't favour all women. When you have a hardworking woman and a hardworking man, it can make either or both of their lives very difficult, and difficult is what you'd expect from trying to work and take care of a kid at the same time. Who has the most difficult time generally depends on who has custody - making that choice depends on a delicate balance of sharing the responsibility and looking realistically at the fitness of each parent. Often, the good-hearted women get screwed on this front because the dad is an unfit dad - but can you really lay ALL the blame on him when it was her choice to marry him and have kids in the first place? You may say that she didn't "know" he would be such a lousy parent, but I've seen this situation up close and these guys send out red flags like crazy. I mean they are absolute jerks - before, after, and during marrige. Women and men both ignore these red flags and get married anyway because they're in "love".

But I digress. The point is that although the system doesn't necessarily favour women in general, who it does favour is LAZY and MANIPULATIVE women, which is exactly who it should be punishing instead.

Does that make it any clearer? If you think I'm making grandiose generalizations then I'd be happy to collect some case studies for you.

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Originally posted by Allegory Haha work in the entertainment industry for a while and you'll definitely know what she's referring to. The inequality in salary becomes a lot more visible when working in a position that isn't as succeptible to public scrutiny, such as an office, firm, entertainment- anything that doesn't attract attention to the public eye. Not government in Canada though; equality is very much the motto. That may be one the reasons why you haven't heard of this. But believe me, its' blatantly there for many.

Baloney. There are very good reasons for why the "average" pay for men is higher than that for women:

• Athletics: baseball and basketball salaries raise the curve bigtime for men everywhere.
  
• High-risk/unpleasant jobs: men become garbage pickers, sewage workers, building contractors, electricians, etc. The salaries they earn are practically hazard pay.
  
• High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering. Far more men also go into surgery and other highly specialized medical professions.
  
• As already mentioned, maternity leave. Men may be able to take it too but in general they don't. The risk factor is HUGE for a company, and anyone who understands the time value of money (a very basic principle of economics) should be able to figure out why this is important.

How about my cousin who is remarried and gets to pay child support and alimony to his ex-wife for a child who isnt even his? Meanwhile she sits on her fat ass and collects welfare!! And even worse, the real father fucked off to England so they have given up on him. Oh and did i mention that the kid is handicapped so the unnatural father will be supporting this kid for the rest of this kid's life??

He decided to quit working and live on his wife's salary as a remedy but guess what? The court came after her salary!

Where is the justice here????

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Originally posted by Jayx1 How about my cousin who is remarried and gets to pay child support and alimony to his ex-wife for a child who isnt even his? Meanwhile she sits on her fat ass and collects welfare!! And even worse, the real father fucked off to England so they have given up on him. Oh and did i mention that the kid is handicapped so the unnatural father will be supporting this kid for the rest of this kid's life?? He decided to quit working and live on his wife's salary as a remedy but guess what? The court came after her salary! Where is the justice here????

that's nasty.
I agree that the law isn't fair for the men incase of divorce

btw man, is Quiznos Canadian or American?

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Originally posted by DigiNut Baloney. There are very good reasons for why the "average" pay for men is higher than that for women: Athletics: baseball and basketball salaries raise the curve bigtime for men everywhere. High-risk/unpleasant jobs: men become garbage pickers, sewage workers, building contractors, electricians, etc. The salaries they earn are practically hazard pay. High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering. Far more men also go into surgery and other highly specialized medical professions. As already mentioned, maternity leave. Men may be able to take it too but in general they don't. The risk factor is HUGE for a company, and anyone who understands the time value of money (a very basic principle of economics) should be able to figure out why this is important. So while the average pay scale for men may be higher than that of women, it is patent nonsense to blame it on any kind of systematic discrimination. "Equality" was only ever supposed to mean equal opportunity, that both men and women have the right TO DO WHAT IT TAKES to earn that high salary. Equality is not supposed to be a GUARANTEE that the salaries WILL be equal. If women want to pick garbage for a living, they can earn a whopping salary with plenty of vacation days too. But instead they go into retail and hospitality industries - the real career-motivated ones go into law and business and *sometimes* medicine but almost *never* surgery. The old myth that a woman doing the EXACT same work as a man will receive a lot less pay is just that - a myth. It's based on deeply suspect manipulation of easily explainable statistics. When companies offer positions, they decide on their salaries before they fill the job, so it doesn't matter whether a man or a woman gets it. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. There are women in computer science and computer engineering and general surgery. There are a few female CEOs and electrical contractors. But you set the generality ball rolling when you started talking about the average pay scale, so here we are. Those are the reasons. Deal with them. We can't as a society guarantee women higher salaries unless they CHOOSE to go into the particular professions and/or trades that pay those high salaries. It comes down to INDIVIDUAL choices, and not GENDER specific issues.

Great post Diginut, very true. Anyone who still thinks that wages are unfair as far as sexes are concerned should read this post!

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Originally posted by Crazy Serb Hahaha! Be afraid, be very afraid! Or just get them to sign a pre-nup... It's your money, anyway.

wow, how values change. anyone that would make me want to sign a prenup would not be worth marying period. the idea of marriage is to become one, if you want your seperate bank accounts thats not true love, period. if you can even fathom having do a prenup in marriage that is just plain awful. if its not self explanitory you just dont get it.

just my opinion.

I heard about this couple of months ago...
leave poor guy alone!!!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Baloney. There are very good reasons for why the "average" pay for men is higher than that for women: Athletics: baseball and basketball salaries raise the curve bigtime for men everywhere. High-risk/unpleasant jobs: men become garbage pickers, sewage workers, building contractors, electricians, etc. The salaries they earn are practically hazard pay. High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering. Far more men also go into surgery and other highly specialized medical professions. As already mentioned, maternity leave. Men may be able to take it too but in general they don't. The risk factor is HUGE for a company, and anyone who understands the time value of money (a very basic principle of economics) should be able to figure out why this is important. So while the average pay scale for men may be higher than that of women, it is patent nonsense to blame it on any kind of systematic discrimination. "Equality" was only ever supposed to mean equal opportunity, that both men and women have the right TO DO WHAT IT TAKES to earn that high salary. Equality is not supposed to be a GUARANTEE that the salaries WILL be equal. If women want to pick garbage for a living, they can earn a whopping salary with plenty of vacation days too. But instead they go into retail and hospitality industries - the real career-motivated ones go into law and business and *sometimes* medicine but almost *never* surgery. The old myth that a woman doing the EXACT same work as a man will receive a lot less pay is just that - a myth. It's based on deeply suspect manipulation of easily explainable statistics. When companies offer positions, they decide on their salaries before they fill the job, so it doesn't matter whether a man or a woman gets it. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. There are women in computer science and computer engineering and general surgery. There are a few female CEOs and electrical contractors. But you set the generality ball rolling when you started talking about the average pay scale, so here we are. Those are the reasons. Deal with them. We can't as a society guarantee women higher salaries unless they CHOOSE to go into the particular professions and/or trades that pay those high salaries. It comes down to INDIVIDUAL choices, and not GENDER specific issues.

there are so few ppl in general that are in professional sports in canada, this would hardly have much of an effect. Female Models and dancers make much more than the male equivalent and there are more of them, so I would argue that this would surely cancel this out.

yes it is costly for women to go on a leave to have children, but if they didn't, everyone would be screwed, there wouldn't be enough ppl in the upcoming generations to take care of our generation- both in terms of ppl to pay taxes and ppl wokring in the healthcare industry to take care of us, as well as ppl to fill jobs!

aaron, there is such a things as a 'pink ghetto' jobs that are predominantly held by women pay less than jobs held by men, factory workers make more than daycare workers, garbage men, make more than hairdressers (who work w/ harmful chemicals)
my mother works a job that requires a job graduate work (she's a librarian) she has an undergrad and 2 master's degrees. but my dad's college diploma has allowed him to make more than double what she makes. The reason jobs that are predominantly done my men that are of a low-skill level pay better are due to historcal reasons. When women didn't work men were paid a 'family wage' - jobs performed by women paid a 'supplementary wage' as time has passed this gap has lessened, but not nearly enough.

"[*]High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering"
this quote of yours is exactly right, male dominated industries pay more- i would advise women to go into these industries, b/c they will benefit from the fact that men have been doing this work, and therefore the work has a higher value.

there are things that women can do to help themselves out. these are things that I am doing right now, but things that woudl have an adverse effect if everyone did it this way:

1) stay out of industries dominated by women- don't go into nursing, teaching, childcare etc. you will be paid more, even with less education if you go into male-dominated industries.

2) don't have kids

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Originally posted by charmscars aaron, there is such a things as a 'pink ghetto' jobs that are predominantly held by women pay less than jobs held by men, factory workers make more than daycare workers, garbage men, make more than hairdressers (who work w/ harmful chemicals) my mother works a job that requires a job graduate work (she's a librarian) she has an undergrad and 2 master's degrees. but my dad's college diploma has allowed him to make more than double what she makes. The reason jobs that are predominantly done my men that are of a low-skill level pay better are due to historcal reasons. When women didn't work men were paid a 'family wage' - jobs performed by women paid a 'supplementary wage' as time has passed this gap has lessened, but not nearly enough.

Nobody said there's a direct relationship between your education and how much money you will make. It has nothing to do with sex. If I became a hairdresser I'd make less than a garbageman also. Lesson? Go for a higher paying job!

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"[*]High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering" this quote of yours is exactly right, male dominated industries pay more- i would advise women to go into these industries, b/c they will benefit from the fact that men have been doing this work, and therefore the work has a higher value.

yet another example of careers that are avoided by women because they don't enjoy the work, or because they don't see other women in the field, but could be making alot of money doing it.

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there are things that women can do to help themselves out. these are things that I am doing right now, but things that woudl have an adverse effect if everyone did it this way: 1) stay out of industries dominated by women- don't go into nursing, teaching, childcare etc. you will be paid more, even with less education if you go into male-dominated industries. 2) don't have kids

There are lots of examples of jobs that require little education but are well paid. After I get my degree in Computer Science, it's pretty much guaranteed that I will make less than most tradesmen. Does this have anything to do with sex? Hell no.

You keep mentioning women working with children. Well going for a job that you find enjoyable doesn't guarantee you alot of money. That's why it's called WORK. Go for a higher paying job.

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Originally posted by charmscars there are so few ppl in general that are in professional sports in canada, this would hardly have much of an effect. Female Models and dancers make much more than the male equivalent and there are more of them, so I would argue that this would surely cancel this out.

Well no not really Tara - I'm talking strictly about salary, but models and dancers make money through contracts mostly. If we include all the advertising and endorsement contracts, benefits, etc., then we're talking about substantially more money. However, although contracts are a source of income, the "men get paid more than women" argument generally only takes into account salary, and not contracts. So high-paying female-dominated jobs like modelling often don't get factored into the equation at ALL, because their money doesn't come in through salary!

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot to mention that earlier. And high-paying sports salaries may not be numerous, but a few thousand people make 7 figures is enough to bump up the average enough to be noticed.

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yes it is costly for women to go on a leave to have children, but if they didn't, everyone would be screwed, there wouldn't be enough ppl in the upcoming generations to take care of our generation- both in terms of ppl to pay taxes and ppl wokring in the healthcare industry to take care of us, as well as ppl to fill jobs!

Collectivist argument that companies should be sinking their own hard-earned profits into "society". While this may be the status quo in Canada, other countries consider it a violation of civil rights to force a company (or an individual) to do this. And since labour laws here essentially REQUIRE a company to support the mat leave (that is, it's up to them to find a temporary replacement and re-staff the woman when she's ready), that money IS SUNK.

One may consider it a "good" law that companies have to follow through with this, but it means that any woman on their staff who gets pregnant is almost invariably going to cost the company a lot of money. Thus it makes a woman on their staff a worse investment in general. If we didn't have such strict and irrational labour law - i.e. if companies could re-staff the position and then wave goodbye to the new mother - there would be far more incentive to invest more money in that labour. And that's not to say that companies would do this all the time if they were allowed to: many companies say to employees (male and female) who move on with their lives that they are welcome to come back any time. There is nothing so outlandish about about valuing an employee highly enough to make an offer for her to come back whenever she's done raising the babies, but there is something a little suspect about forcing the companies to do it.

Companies care about their bottom line, they aren't interested in how their money is helping society, and they shouldn't have to be. The mat leave arrangements will either make the company reluctant to hire a woman at all (which society and the Labour Police tell them is a definite no-no), or inclined to fiddle with the arrangements a bit so they break even after including this risk factor.

There is obviously sound logic behind this. It may be cold and calculated, but individuals and corporations have the right (or should have it) to be just that. The problem comes in turning it into a gender-specific and/or discriminatory practice when it's really about their bottom line - I'm sure if a woman walked in and said she's married with 2 teenagers and her husband is sterile, they'd be willing to pay her more. It's just less of a financial risk for the company.

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aaron, there is such a things as a 'pink ghetto' jobs that are predominantly held by women pay less than jobs held by men, factory workers make more than daycare workers, garbage men, make more than hairdressers (who work w/ harmful chemicals) my mother works a job that requires a job graduate work (she's a librarian) she has an undergrad and 2 master's degrees. but my dad's college diploma has allowed him to make more than double what she makes. The reason jobs that are predominantly done my men that are of a low-skill level pay better are due to historcal reasons. When women didn't work men were paid a 'family wage' - jobs performed by women paid a 'supplementary wage' as time has passed this gap has lessened, but not nearly enough.

We have to look at these comparisons rationally:

Factory workers :: daycare workers - factory work is a HORRIBLE job, it's not only stressful but also carries a high risk of injury and low job security.

Garbage men :: hairdressers - Aside from the fact that there are many more male hairdressers than there are female garbage pickers, it's obvious which job carries the more imminent risk factor. Sure, the chemicals in a salon might pose a mild long-term risk of various diseases and disorders, but directly handling medical or nuclear waste brings that risk into the NEAR FUTURE. Also, many hairdressers set their own salaries based on rates which they feel are reasonable, so they don't have a corporation to blame. Finally, waste disposal in Canada is a government job, which on average tends to make it 25% more cushy than non-government jobs based solely on that fact.

College diploma :: extended education - well to me this is a non-issue. The belief that more education leads to a higher salary is mostly myth. It's true that the pay is higher if the graduate takes a salaried, entry-level job directly in his/her field, but the people who really make high salaries usually either (a) are tradespeople, (b) make a lot of good investments, or (c) run or are very high up in a company.

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there are things that women can do to help themselves out. these are things that I am doing right now, but things that woudl have an adverse effect if everyone did it this way: 1) stay out of industries dominated by women- don't go into nursing, teaching, childcare etc. you will be paid more, even with less education if you go into male-dominated industries.

That's very good advice. I too would like to see more women going into IT and technical fields to break the whole male stereotype. There have been many threads about this in the past and it's hard to determine the reasons why women in general hate this industry so much. No one is sure if it's just the "image" - let's hope that it really is that simple and that things will change.

There are two separate issues, however, that people tend to lump into one without realizing it:
1. They are male-dominated << this is due to historical reasons
2. They pay more << this is due to the nature of the work

So yes, one can say "male-dominated industries pay more", and by correlation it is probably true, but one must keep in mind the old statistical saying that correlation does NOT equal causation. The cause for those industries being male-dominated is DIFFERENT from the cause for those industries paying more.

The desire to "level the playing field" without actually looking at the true causative factors involved is not only patently irrational but also grievously unfair to the higher earners. They haven't necessarily had easier lives merely because they earn more money - and there's certainly no evidence that they got where they are "off the backs of" women or anyone else.


Sorry for the long essay but there seem to be a lot of misconceptions out there about this issue and I'd really like to give some food for thought to everyone.

Charmscars:

So you see? This Pink ghetto you speak of are lower end and often tertiary jobs. There is nothing stopping women from going into male dominated industry with perhaps the exception of professional sports. The fact is that women CHOOSE to go into lower paying jobs. Women's group try and make us believe that women doing the exact same job as men make 1/4 less. Thats pure BS and i dont think most of society is buying it anymore.

Women can be and are becoming doctors, lawyers, etc and I have seen more and more male nurses and legal secretaries. So you see, stop comparing apples and oranges. There is equal pay and equal opportunity if it's wanted.

The trick here is ensuring there is equality on the education level and I'm pretty sure that has been done. What happens after that is up to the individual.

My Dad is a Janitor, and I know from experience working with him that it isn't easy or delightful work. I don't care if you need a college diploma to take care of some kids, I'd MUCH rather take care of kids for 10 bucks an hour than be a Janitor for 14 bucks an hour (which is a good starting wage for a custodian BTW, if you're making 17 or more, you've impressed someone or you're working for the Government).

Janitors need to clean up some disgusting shit you know. People where my dad works wipe snot on the walls, miss the toilet (while taking a number 2 somehow), and there are tons of other things that only someone with a strong stomache could handle cleaning up (He found a finger under one of the machines a few days after one of the guys got it cut off by a machine and they couldn't find it for instance). You have to always be on the move (your legs, and especially knees wear out from the constant walking around), do heavy lifting (does some serious long-term damage on the back), clean in hazardous areas, and deal with other employees acting like they're better than the janitor (even though they're likely making just as much, if not less than the Janitor). Paying janitors less than they make now would make it VERY hard to find anyone interested in the job.

Child-care, although no more or less stressful, is much EASIER work than Janitorial work (I ALSO have experience with child-care). You generaly have a team of people helping you care for the kids, and lets face it... if you're in child-care, you LOVE kids. You'll enjoy your job no matter what. Also, higher pay for the workers would mean higher costs for the customers, and it wouldn't be affordable, you'd lose customers, which would mean losing jobs, which would mean losing daycare centers.

The same problem with paying Hair dressers more than they make arises. Costs would go up, customers would leave, and you'd find yourself without a job, nevermind the fact that if you're REALLY good at your job, you can make some REAL money hairdressing (it's a matter of time and skill).

Garbage men risk disease, sun stroke, frost bite, injuries due to heavy lifting, and probably lots more things that I can't think of on my own. They DESERVE to be paid more than some person (male OR female) that's cutting somebodie's hair. More WORK is involved.

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