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-- Should they just cancel the dj mag top 100?
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quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 What does it take for a fan to not be clueless,

Have an open mind, expand your horizons, and explore the entirety of EDM as much as possible.

quote:

or a DJ not to be a joke?

Learn how to scratch and/or mix. Good mixing = Either very long transitions or more than 20 tracks in 60 minutes.

I don't buy a mix CD if it has less than 20 tracks. The trick is to know the DJ's who can do it well. I'm not talking about "club rave nation anthems ibiza 2001" stuff with 25 tracks jammed together haphazardly by a computer geek either.

I really didnt mean to start an argument, I was honestly trying to learn something about what it takes for an EDM musician to deserve respect and what it takes for a TA to not be clueless.

thank you for your answer radaghast. I imagine us trance fanst are doing their best to expand their horizons and open their minds, at least I am anyway

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast You're assuming that those DJ's respect PVD with no evidence. I don't assume they either despise or respect him because there is no real proof of what they think...but if I were to take a guess based on their respective scene's attitude i'd say despise. While it's true that PVD has been in the trance game longer than most, since the early 90's, he still sold out along with trance in the eyes of many.

What proof do you want? Its not something that can be set out in black and white. I cant just paste sasha's opinions up here and say they are genuine... id just get the same 'prove it' response.

The fact is that PvD goes way back with people like Sasha, Bt, Deep Dish etc etc... I dont know if they still like his music, but I would guess they definately DONT. However, whenever they pick someone out to slate its always tiesto... and Sasha, Bt, Deep Dish & PvD are all still good mates, they obviously respect him as a person, whether or not its deserved.

quote:

Originally posted by Laushinameee What proof do you want? Its not something that can be set out in black and white. I cant just paste sasha's opinions up here and say they are genuine... id just get the same 'prove it' response. The fact is that PvD goes way back with people like Sasha, Bt, Deep Dish etc etc... I dont know if they still like his music, but I would guess they definately DONT. However, whenever they pick someone out to slate its always tiesto... and Sasha, Bt, Deep Dish & PvD are all still good mates, they obviously respect him as a person, whether or not its deserved.

I thought you meant producers outside of the trance scene, no doubt PVD has many friends who spin the same genre of music.

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 I really didnt mean to start an argument, I was honestly trying to learn something about what it takes for an EDM musician to deserve respect and what it takes for a TA to not be clueless.

understand that the views on ta / 'trance' forums are not representative of the wider church of 'electronic music'. They are a very small minority, and a minority that is seen as a joke by pretty much every single other field you can think of.

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast I thought you meant producers outside of the trance scene, no doubt PVD has many friends who spin the same genre of music.

Jeff Mills, Miss Kittin, Laurent Garnier, Dr Motte, WestBam, Liebing, DC, Felix are all mates of his.

quote:

Originally posted by Laushinameee Jeff Mills, Miss Kittin, Laurent Garner, Dr Motte, WestBam, Liebing, DC, Felix are all mates of his.

That may be true, but even if they respect him as a person do they respect his music or his abilities as a DJ?

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast That may be true, but even if they respect him do they respect his music or his abilities as a DJ?

I would think that they dont, you constantly hear of PvD & Laurent Garnier having arguments about 'trance'. Most people would see this as garnier being bitchy about the 'trance scene' although the fact is that they are alright with each other. I dont think theyd ever volunteer a positive view about his music, but on the other hand they would never seriously single him out for criticism. It is weird, most of these djs ^ are quite outspoken, but PvD does have a kind of immunity from their criticisms.

Plus WestBam, Lexy, K Paul & Miss Kittin seemed to be having a good time when PvD was playing at LFA this year Although they werent anywhere near the room while tiesto was on (neither was PvD for that matter).

quote:

Originally posted by Laushinameee It is weird, most of these djs ^ are quite outspoken, but PvD does have a kind of immunity from their criticisms.

He does deserve some respect for his early involvement (however little) in Trance. Some give him this respect and some choose to ignore it in light of him riding the Epic/Anthem Trance wave to stardom.

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast He does deserve some respect for his early involvement (however little) in Trance. Some give him this respect and some choose to ignore it in light of him riding the Epic/Anthem Trance wave to stardom.

I agree. I think the whole epic trance / 'son of god' / 'world leader of trance' shit was unfortunate & unnecessary. However he didnt exactly do a lot to distance himself from that through his music (which is where it counts) however hard he tried to do it through his words (which no one cares about).

98 99 trance fucked up his career. A lot of it was not his fault, and a lot of it was. Its just a shame though that most people today have no concept of the way the whole thing played out.

what makes a dj

tunes or technicalities

I think maybe you can see by the people PVD has as guests at his Vandit nights - who he gets on with and is respected by in 'the scene'

quote:

Originally posted by Laushinameee understand that the views on ta / 'trance' forums are not representative of the wider church of 'electronic music'. They are a very small minority, and a minority that is seen as a joke by pretty much every single other field you can think of.

Fair enough, I don't find that fact very hard to accept at all. The only thing that im still confused over it why this happened to trance in the first place and why it isnt happening to other styles. I am absolutely sure that other genres have uncreative/unskilled musicians in them that have acheived giant popularity because they have amassed a clueless fanbase, but I haven't got a clue as to why that makes trance a big joke but doesn't affect anyone else.

these threads are like catnip for Laushinameee, just cant resist bashing anyone except PvD.

its really bizarre! (especially since there is no proof offered whatsoever)


the poll is stupid, but will always exist in some iteration. if the biz uses it, which im sure they do, it is what it is. means shitty djs showing up more than often - but music is too subjective to be pigeonholed. itll help the big jocks, and the quality eventually gets up there in rank too. i think its up to the dj to maintain whatever they think is 'their style', and avoid the tiesto 'im gonna play old oakie songs' disease|

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 The only thing that im still confused over it why this happened to trance in the first place and why it isnt happening to other styles.

Other styles still remain true to what they were meant to be. The bulk of Trance transformed from respected underground music to pop music because of the additions of certain pop music tricks, namely symphonic sing-along melodies. Greedy producers bolstered by greedy DJ's bolstered by masses of people pulled in by the new "sound" of Trance took this transformation in the late 90's and ran with it to this very day. In effect Trance has sold itself out . That's not to be respected.

quote:

I am absolutely sure that other genres have uncreative/unskilled musicians in them that have acheived giant popularity because they have amassed a clueless fanbase, but I haven't got a clue as to why that makes trance a big joke but doesn't affect anyone else.

Even if those other genres have such musicians, the music in each remains mostly true to what it was meant to be since its conception.


This is how I see these things, and it's the explanation that makes the most logical sense.

The problem I see is DJ's, as a result of these polls, begin to worry more about their popularity rather than the music. In a sense, the DJ's begin to lose a piece of their artist integrity. The trend I currently see within the DJ community is one towards popularity and not music, which ultimately has a negative long term affect for dance music and its fans.



Art ( dj'ing. etc.) can not be advanced under business models; I believe these polls are just a manifestation of promoters to capitalize in the short run on this art. Why can�t art be advanced to the public via business models (i.e. polls)? Because once we begin to look at art in terms of popularity or revenues (which these polls have done) we begin to lose the true meaning of art and the artist.

Very helpful as usual radagast, thanks.

I imagine that trance was once meant to take dancers into another state of conciousness, hence calling it trance.


What do you think trance music was originaly meant to be? Do you think there are any musicians left that still hold true to that idea? If so, can you tell us who they are?



Again, not trying to argue, im wanting to learn some stuff here.


I'd also like to add to this edit, sry TTA I didn't mean to hijack yer thred and turn it towards this other topic. I think the top100 should be cancelled, I think dave worded my feelings perfectly in his post

the Oscars of Trance

It's like "The Oscars" and People Magazine... doesn't mean anything, but it's fun to look at anyway. Well, it does show, in the case of ppl who place very low (or not at all) who's out of the loop...

What bugs me about it is, the focus is mostly on European DJ's... There's not a lot of focus on ppl like Mickey Oliver (I think he's in N.Am.??), D.J. Phil "Turnipseed" (cute name, huh?) or DJ X from Plummet (a great dance act, by the way)

The top 100 DJ Award is an awesome idea and should be continued.

Lets start off my saying that where ever you look small minded people will bitch and whinge about commercialisation. It might be a quiet little pretty holiday town that has now become well known and busy, a small little rock band that has become super popular, whatever it is people are quick to fight CHANGE.

I just wish to address the comments made by the torontotrance fellow.

One thing that must be accepted by the socalled edm experts is that DJs have a much lower profile than other musical artists. Sure you might know 1,000 top producers and DJs off the top of your head but your average person on the street would struggle to recognise the 10 most popular DJs in the street.

And lets make one thing clear. Commercialisation, popularity, top 100 DJ competitions is good for the industry as a whole. It creates interest thereby creating income for artists, and this flows all the way down to the kid with decks in his bedroom. People that fail to see the bigger picture will complain that the Top DJ is not actually the best technically or musically, well, HELLO.

The biggest purpose that the top 100 DJ comp has is to increase the profile of DJs. When a DJ comes to your town and the flyers go out; everybody is sick of 'cutting edge trance dj', 'played alongside the likes of Oakenfold' etc, everybody fucking says that, but when its one of the top 10 or 20 DJs people get more interested and get along and pay their money.

And the best thing about this award is that it comes down to votes. Its not some stupid opinion of socalled experts that wins the prizes, we get to choose. Your opinions vs mine, it doesn't get fairer than that. So all you clowns that think the Top 100 DJs is a bad idea its probably because many of you think that you know better, but its just showing a lack of understanding of the world we live in and the music industry as a whole, and the edm industry specifically.

To me anybody that complains in any form about the Top 100 DJ competition looks as stupid as an idiot that goes outside under the moonlight and shakes his fist at the moon. Stupid.

t�bias,

Interesting perspective but what would you say to my comments below :

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Piazza The problem I see is DJ's, as a result of these polls, begin to worry more about their popularity rather than the music. In a sense, the DJ's begin to lose a piece of their artist integrity. The trend I currently see within the DJ community is one towards popularity and not music, which ultimately has a negative long term affect for dance music and its fans. Art ( dj'ing. etc.) can not be advanced under business models; I believe these polls are just a manifestation of promoters to capitalize in the short run on this art. Why can�t art be advanced to the public via business models (i.e. polls)? Because once we begin to look at art in terms of popularity or revenues (which these polls have done) we begin to lose the true meaning of art and the artist.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Piazza t�bias, Interesting perspective but what would you say to my comments below :

In the world we live in you will always get a trade off between quality and success. Sure the coffee you might drink at the little Italian deli around the corner might be much better than the one you get at Starbucks, but Starbucks is sure better at marketing. There is a place in the world for everything and everybody.

A DJ might spend all his/her money on promotions and marketing and creating the biggest profile in the world, and most likely they will sell a shitload of records and get crowds to gigs. But this will only work in the short term. It won't be long until they are found out to be shit, or a someone that is much more talented tears them a new asshole. Even so the marketed plastic DJ will probably still be around in the top 10 forever.

But to bitch about these details is to forget to look at the bigger picture. The Top 100 DJs competition is not for the knowledgable edm lovers, they already know who their favorite artists are and don't need to be told my some magazine. Its for the lovers of rock music, its for the kids that have just turned 18 or 21, its for the person just developing a love for dance music. In an instant they can get a grasp of the big names in the industry, buy some of their albums, brag to their friends, become mini experts, become snobs, buy tickets to gigs, buy their own records.

This probably pisses of the edm elitists who think that you should not be told who the top 100 DJs are you should sit on the net for 25 hours a week, listen to thousands of records, follow tracklists, to get such an understanding. But they fail to realise that nto everybody can do this and the easier you can make people experts the more likely that they will spend money and this helps everybody.

I am an artist, and I disagree with your idea that art cannot be advanced under business models. If it couldn't then we would never hear music or see art. The artist needs to promote themselves, make contacts, take some risks, spend some money; and this my friend is BUSINESS.

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 What do you think trance music was originaly meant to be? Do you think there are any musicians left that still hold true to that idea? If so, can you tell us who they are?

You were right. It was meant to be hypnotic, repetitive, trippy, spacey, thereby having the ability to "take listeners to another state of conciousness". In other words a trance, hence the name "Trance". Now you may say that epic/anthem trance has just as much of an ability to do this...but I don't understand how music that is constantly trying to tug at your emotions can entrance you. You may be in a state of temporary emotional elevation, which is different from being in an "entranced" state.

Musicians left...most Psytrance and GOA retains the basic nature of trance. A couple of my standout faves include Shpongle and Shulman at the moment. Resistance D(classic trance legend) did some post 2000 remixes of 4 strings tracks, I don't know if he's still producing though. Commander Tom(classic trance legend) did a remix of DJ Sammy - Heaven which is awesome, but these days he's making Techno. Most "classic" trance producers have retired though, sadly. Again Psy trance and GOA in general have kept the original idea of trance around to this day. Which is why they are not nearly as popular as Epic/Anthem Trance.

quote:

Originally posted by t�bias In the world we live in you will always get a trade off between quality and success. Sure the coffee you might drink at the little Italian deli around the corner might be much better than the one you get at Starbucks, but Starbucks is sure better at marketing. There is a place in the world for everything and everybody. A DJ might spend all his/her money on promotions and marketing and creating the biggest profile in the world, and most likely they will sell a shitload of records and get crowds to gigs. But this will only work in the short term. It won't be long until they are found out to be shit, or a someone that is much more talented tears them a new asshole. Even so the marketed plastic DJ will probably still be around in the top 10 forever. But to bitch about these details is to forget to look at the bigger picture. The Top 100 DJs competition is not for the knowledgable edm lovers, they already know who their favorite artists are and don't need to be told my some magazine. Its for the lovers of rock music, its for the kids that have just turned 18 or 21, its for the person just developing a love for dance music. In an instant they can get a grasp of the big names in the industry, buy some of their albums, brag to their friends, become mini experts, become snobs, buy tickets to gigs, buy their own records. This probably pisses of the edm elitists who think that you should not be told who the top 100 DJs are you should sit on the net for 25 hours a week, listen to thousands of records, follow tracklists, to get such an understanding. But they fail to realise that nto everybody can do this and the easier you can make people experts the more likely that they will spend money and this helps everybody. I am an artist, and I disagree with your idea that art cannot be advanced under business models. If it couldn't then we would never hear music or see art. The artist needs to promote themselves, make contacts, take some risks, spend some money; and this my friend is BUSINESS.

Excellent Post.

rofl. you guys talk as if you guys know all the djs in person. little did you know that most of them do not despise each other. they may dislike certain things each others do, but they usually respect each others. except some djs who have their own grudges. but if you are talking about the truly skilled ones, maybe they despise trance djs. and whoever said skilled = scratching/mixing with long transitions or 20 tracks in an hour. no offense but that's the most ridiculous bullshit i've heard. many people would like to hear more of the track in a compilation than only 3-4 mins of it. and most djs would like to have most of the track played in their compilation (with exception for some tracks).. i don't think this discussion is going anywhere and i'm not trying to defend trance as i'm more into breaks now. but i hope most of you would know your roots, and in quite a lot of cases, it'd be trance. not telling you to love it forever regardless how 'shit' it gets. but really, the world would be nicer if you simply ignore the genre you don't like if you really can't show any respect to it.

more deejays hate one another than you realize. Ask Derrick May, why about 8 producers want to beat his ass in because he blacklisted them from detroit. Ask Richie Hawtin, why he and Dave Clarke always have to get into fistfights, when they are around each other.

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