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quote:

Originally posted by DC76 Chords are interesting things You can experiment a lot with them.

Jesus that's a lot of information to process. I can see you've put a lot of thought into this - for people who can play the piano/keyboard, my favourite method is just to improvise for a bit, and keep whatever sounds good.

Plus you're going to intrinsically avoid those "oversize" chords that way, because if it's oversized, you won't be able to play it.

^Improv is how I came up with my classical compositions in the first place Usually after about 3 weeks of expanding on a sound or chord I get in my head, I have a full-blown tune in my head.

I'm actually re-transcribing compositions electronically with Logic now... some of them come out sounding rather interesting

Oh, and about that last bit, not only would you not be able to play them, but even if you had umpteen fingers to be able to, it would still be complete and utter cacophony.

Here are some lead ideas from guitar.

first, the scales

Scale Start Note
I II III IV V VI VII VIII (Descending)
Ionian C B A G F E D C
Dorian D C B A G F E D
Phrygian E D C B A G F E
Lydian F E D C B A G F
Mixolydian G F E D C B A G
Aeolian A G F E D C B A
Locrian B A G F E D C B

Medieval Modes
Scale Start Note
I II III IV V VI VII VIII (Ascending)
Ionian C D E F G A B C Modern Major
Dorian D E F G A B C D
Phrygian E F G A B C D E
Lydian F G A B C D E F
Mixolydian G A B C D E F G
Aeolian A B C D E F G A Modern Minor
Locrian B C D E F G A B

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lead ideas:

One way to play a lead is play 4 notes in order for a scale, starting at the tonic (or I note, or the key you are in). Next play 4 notes in order again, but start at the next note up or down in the scale. Then do it again starting from what would be the 3rd note in the scale.
1 2 3 4, 2 3 4 5, 3 4 5 6

Next, do the same thing, but use two different scales and alternate between them. For example Aeolian & Phrygian:
A B C D, E F G A, B C D E, F G A B
continue until you reach the tonic or I note in the next octave. If you do this with 16th or 32nd notes over in sync with your cord progression it will produce 'fireworks'. Jimmy Page would do this.

Or three notes can be used, but the 3rd note comes back down the scale rather than up it:
1 2 1, 2 3 2, 3 4 3,
This could also alternate between two scales like above.

Yet another way to play lead is to play the notes of a chord one at a time, walking up and/or down in pitch.

It may help to think of lead as a conversation, or call and response (from blues/rock). Or variation on a theme.

I know I will be flamed for this, but at the root of ALL popular music, including trance, is the I IV V chord progression. I resolves, IV has tension, V has A LOT of tension. In the key of E these are E, A, and B. E is the tonic, root, resolving. A variation on these chords is the relative minor. The relative minor is a tone below the key you are in and is also minor. The relative minor of B would be G# Minor. You can apply this to what I described above, and alternate your 4 note scale figures between the main key and relative minor.
There is also the relative major, that is a tone and a half ABOVE the key you are in. So the relative major of E would be G. Apply this to the alternating lead as well.

So now you have 9 keys to play in:
Standard, relative minor (below), relative major (above)
I IV V
C F G (key of C)
D# G# A# (relative major)
Am Em Fm (relative minor)
[m means minor. # means sharp -- a half tone up in pitch]


A cool chord is the "Hendrix Chord" which is a Dominant 7#9 chord. Try playing around with it, or making a lead based on it.

You can create tention by playing lead half a tone up from the key of the song/current chord. So if the key is C, do the lead in C#.

quote:

Originally posted by syk0 A variation on these chords is the relative minor. The relative minor is a tone below the key you are in and is also minor. The relative minor of B would be A minor. You can apply this to what I described above, and alternate your 4 note scale figures between the main key and relative minor. There is also the relative major, that is a tone and a half ABOVE the key you are in. So the relative major of E would be G. Apply this to the alternating lead as well. So now you have 9 keys to play in: Standard, relative minor (below), relative major (above) I IV V C F G (key of C) D# G# A# (relative major) Bm Em Fm (relative minor) [m means minor. # means sharp -- a half tone up in pitch] A cool chord is the "Hendrix Chord" which is a Dominant 7#9 chord. Try playing around with it, or making a lead based on it. You can create tention by playing lead half a tone up from the key of the song/current chord. So if the key is C, do the lead in C#.

I don't know waht crazy shit u get taught in America but the relative minor of B is G# Minor, and A minor is the relative minor of C. I dunno where this "standard" comes from. There is Major, and Minor. Fin.




As i have said before in this thread, trance music is generally stuck between major and minor, leaning towards the minor. In classical music, in minor keys the 7th note is flattened. This does not normally happen in trance and is what gives it that major/minor confusion that sounds lush.

messytechie, thanks for the correction!

I learned that on guitar, and would just move a bar chord or scale up three frets or down two frets and make the chord a minor. It is hard for me to translate it to keyboards or a sequencer. But i like the sound of the relative minor very much.

Your graphic helps a lot. Hopefuly people con figure out what I am trying ot say

I hope those ideas I post can still be of use to some.

For chords, all you have to do to go from the major to the relative minor is raise the fifth a full tone.

C E G (Cmaj) => C E A (Amin)

quote:

Originally posted by DC76 ^Improv is how I came up with my classical compositions in the first place Usually after about 3 weeks of expanding on a sound or chord I get in my head, I have a full-blown tune in my head. I'm actually re-transcribing compositions electronically with Logic now... some of them come out sounding rather interesting Oh, and about that last bit, not only would you not be able to play them, but even if you had umpteen fingers to be able to, it would still be complete and utter cacophony.

Well, I must say it's nice to see some other musicians on here... seems like most of the forum is obsessed with "sound design" and doesn't have patience for silly ideas like original melodies or chord progressions.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Well, I must say it's nice to see some other musicians on here... seems like most of the forum is obsessed with "sound design" and doesn't have patience for silly ideas like original melodies or chord progressions.

Nothing has changed. :P

quote:

Originally posted by DC76 You bet they are Chords are interesting things You can experiment a lot with them. One way to avoid oversized chords is to merely chop off any notes from the bottom of the chord once you get up to four. I do it all the time. It's a habit I got into from playing the organ Take the C range for example: Cmaj = C E G Cmin = C Eb G Csus2 = C D G C2 = C D E G (Debussy liked chords like these) Csus2 = C D G Caug = C E Ab Caug7 (also written C7+5) = C E Ab Bb (I conjecture that Caug6 is rare, it sounds better with an A bass note as the A minor major seventh chord) C6 = C E G A (which is also Amin7 - the sixth chord of any major will be the seventh of its corresponding minor) Csus7 C7 = C E G Bb Cmaj7 = C E G B Cdim = C Eb Gb (aka F#) Cdim7 = C Eb Gb A (which for the record is also Adim7, Gbdim7 and Ebdim7) Now pay attention here... this is where the shortening process begins. C9 = D E G Bb C11 = D F G Bb (effectively, a Gmin7) (C E G Bb D F is the full chord) C13 = D E A Bb C15 (I think) = D F A Bb (the full chord would be this big honkin mess C E G Bb D F A C#) A full C9add13 is missing an F from a full C13 chord, but it isn't added in the organ chord because it sounds like crap in one big smooshed-in conglomerate like that. Hell, if you got a chord to go high enough, it'd cover all your basic 12 tones... hard on the fingers and the ears... Plus you can mess around with combinations Csus4add2 = C D F G (also a Gsus7) Csus4-2 = I LOVE this chord. It's a little dissonant, but not quite cacophonous, if used properly... C C# F G Csus7-5 = C F F# Bb Csus7+5 = C F Ab Bb C7-5 C E F# Bb C7+5 see above The list goes on... as long as they're used correctly, they'll sound fine. A C15-C13, C13-9 combo can sound quite beautiful, actually I think 11th chords were the most complicated I ever used in trance, though. I may have pulled out a suspended fourth with added flattened second, or two, as well.

reference

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Well, I must say it's nice to see some other musicians on here... seems like most of the forum is obsessed with "sound design" and doesn't have patience for silly ideas like original melodies or chord progressions.

but there's no such thing as an original chord progression and melodies are what's killing trance, didn't you get the memo?

Hi y'all. I'm new here, but I just wanted to add something.

Here's an easy way to find modes. Aeolian=minor. Aeolian mode w/ white keys is the the same as Aminor.

This is because every mode is the white keys from a certain root note. For example white keys starting on A = minor. White keys starting on E = phrygian etc. etc.

Every ket has it's own mode. But for example if you wanted to do g-phrygian that's just fine. Just follow the same halfstep-fullstep-etc-etc scheme as used with the white keys from E, and you have your g-phrygian. If people say Dminor is a good key, it's the same as aeolian with D as the root.

I hope that cleared a few things up. If there are any question, please ask.

Cheers, YL

Btw 1 more thing: You can also just choose a set of ntoes and just use notes. You just take the combinations that sound good to you. Wanna brag? It's called pan-diatonic. Easy as sh*t, but can sound great.

quote:

Originally posted by wayfinder (Un)fortunately, music is not just about what works on paper. It's very much a hands-on art and that extends to all aspects of it. In music, the best way to learn is to do. So just try it out! Make your own experiences as to what sounds good and what doesn't. I know, you want a formula or a recipe, but trust me, there is none.

Actually I find that suspended chords, Simple 2 tone Chords and of course Minor chords work best. The balance between Major/minor is key but of course don't be about any formula.

I also don't believe in relying on arpeggiators to make arps with. Make your own and they will sound more creative and natural. Arps are usually made of just the 1, 3, 5 of either a minor/major chord. I like to use 1,2,5 1, 3,5 1,4,5 in rolling succession which is hard to do with auto synth arps. If you would like to compose melodies within an arp this is a must. Listen to Airbase stuff and you will hear this.

WOW thanks JP8000Lover! I learn a lot!

quote:

Originally posted by JP8000Lover Some interesting information from ..messytechie & JP8000Lover. Although I don't have the slightest idea what any of it means. I'm interested in finding out. Do you have any links that you can recommend to learn these things? I don't know what minor keys mean, or major keys, or d-minor, or c-minor, sharpened 7ths? E-flat? all that Vii Vi stuff. Neapolitan 6ths? Are you guys just making this stuff up j/k. Phrygian mode Dorian Mode Aeolian Mode what are modes? Actually this is where it gets really bad... what are chords? lol. If you have a few minutes, you can learn answers to all your questions here: http://www.musictheory.net/ That site also has a great chord calculator (too bad it doesn't have inversions). Go to the chord calculator and select: C, Major, and I. That will show you I chord of C Major. Now select N6. That's a Neapolitan 6th. Play that chord change on your keyboard, then listen to Paul Oakenfold - Southern Sun (Tiesto Remix). That type of chord change isn't typical in trance, but it was done beautifully by Oakie. A good page for understanding the names of notes. Look in Scale Degrees: http://www.mibac.com/Pages/Theory/Main_Theory.htm Chord stuff: A chord is a combination of at least three distinct notes. Chord notation (all that viio, VI, V6/4, etc.) is how we represent chords. The numbers correspond to the root of the chord i.e. if you are in the key of C, a I chord's root is C, a ii chord's root is D, etc. Uppercase means the chord is a Major chord (a happy-sounding chord) Lowercase means the chord is a minor chord (a sad-sounding chord) Those are just the basics... Here's a link to explain modes: http://www.8notes.com/articles/modes/ One thing though. For all modes (in my example Aeolian Mode), when they say that the mode starts on those white keys, that is not the whole picture. Any mode can start on any key, just as long as it fits. Modes are made by a combination of whole steps and half steps. Half steps are made when you go from one key to the key's neighbor i.e. c->c#. Whole steps are made when you go to the neighbor's neighbor i.e. c->d. The Aeolian Mode consists of whwwhww where w=whole step and h=half step. Go to a keyboard and pick any key. Follow the pattern and you have the Aeolian Mode for that key. And for those interested in every conceivable mode: http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/modename.html Cheers! JP8000Lover

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