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Lira, you are missing something, all the observers who was in the country said that the election was not fair. there are huge protests in the country for the right of an democratic election (of course most people there are pro Yuschenko, but the main thing they fight for is democracy)! these kinds of things does NOT happend just because the US/EU is in favor of it... And of course the EU/US will encourage such things as protecting democracy, that is what we believe in!

the votes were rigged, and it has been confirmed not only by EU and the US but by the ukrainian supreme court...

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Originally posted by Lira By the way, Cal, I said "Slovo" as a joke

Hehe, that explains it, I was kinda looking at that and was...wtf? Kakvo slovo?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Lira, you are missing something, all the observers who was in the country said that the election was not fair. there are huge protests in the country for the right of an democratic election (of course most people there are pro Yuschenko, but the main thing they fight for is democracy)! these kinds of things does NOT happend just because the US/EU is in favor of it... And of course the EU/US will encourage such things as protecting democracy, that is what we believe in!

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Originally posted by stren the votes were rigged, and it has been confirmed not only by EU and the US but by the ukrainian supreme court...

I'm aware of it, but I'm not na�ve enough to think Yanukovich is the villain of the piece, as if he strictly played by the rules. It's much more complicated than that.

I recall reading on BBC, when the commotion had just started, that Yuschenko was involved in some irregularities (if I could only find that article). I don't think that's hard to believe (both from Yanukovich and Yuschenko), because this wouldn't be something new in the history of politics (in fact, wasn't Bush elected under suspicious circunstances in 2000? This is not a rhetorical question, by the way). If it had happened in Madagasgar, probably there wouldn't be much (if any) attention from the media.

This has nothing to do with democracy whatsoever. Take a look on the map and see where Ukraine is located. In fact, have you seen what the regional results were?



Ukraine is divided by the US/EU influenced West and an East (and South) influenced by Russia. Since this is an interesting region, both sides will do their best to strengthen their presence there - one slide from one side can be another defeat. That's why the North-Atlantic media is paying so much attention to the elections. Most likely, both sides cheated, but Yanukovich won and happened to take those "extra advantages" maladroitly. Have you even read what the population from South and East Ukraine say about Yuschenko?
Ukraine's loyal industrial heart
Analysis: Divided Ukraine
Country profile: Ukraine
(I can't be arsed to check outside BBC, it's too late, sorry )

well, very few politicans today are totally inocent, so i doubt Yuschenko is either.. but fact remains that there was election fraud, and that Yuschenko was leading all the exit polls by far... he was the one who would have won a democratic election, most likely. and he is the one fighting for a free election now, thats why we support him... if it was the opposite way, well, then we would support the other guy... at least i would.

On a none serious note: US has its red and blue states, ukraine has its lilac and orange ones, funny

Heh, I kinda have to agree with Lira here. Yuschenko and his party, although pro-western, can hardly be said to be less corrupt than Yanukovich. His second in command is Yulia Timoschenko, and she's planning to become a prime minister. Since they are planning on transferring the majority of the power from the president to the prime minister, that basically means that she'll be the one in charge of the country. And she has done a lot of shady and probably illegal business in the past that made her become the richest person in Ukraine. So somehow I have a feeling that Yuschenko's party is not that innocent as they're trying to make themselves seem.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Heh, I kinda have to agree with Lira here. Yuschenko and his party, although pro-western, can hardly be said to be less corrupt than Yanukovich. His second in command is Yulia Timoschenko, and she's planning to become a prime minister. Since they are planning on transferring the majority of the power from the president to the prime minister, that basically means that she'll be the one in charge of the country. And she has done a lot of shady and probably illegal business in the past that made her become the richest person in Ukraine. So somehow I have a feeling that Yuschenko's party is not that innocent as they're trying to make themselves seem.

Hehe, I had completely ignored her existence, thanks for the reminder

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Originally posted by St_Andrew well, very few politicans today are totally inocent, so i doubt Yuschenko is either.. but fact remains that there was election fraud, and that Yuschenko was leading all the exit polls by far... he was the one who would have won a democratic election, most likely. and he is the one fighting for a free election now, thats why we support him... if it was the opposite way, well, then we would support the other guy... at least i would.

hmm... I wouldn't trust exist polls that much. Not only because of their recent history in Ukraine (exit polls have been conducted since 1998), so we cannot compare with previous results to check how reliable they are. In fact, as I recall it, Kerry often was a potential winner in many exit polls as well, and the USA is a country that's had exit polls for a long time (but this is not the case, is it?). In fact, take a look at that first map I posted and this one:



Southern and Western Ukraine seem to be far more populated (with Kiev as an exception, being an island in the middle of nowhere). A 50/50 scenario doesn't sound impossible. (I believe this map is not old, so if anyone could find a map with a proper dating, that would be appreciated ).

If the opposite had happened, well, that would be a completely different scenario, which we don't know about. Maybe Russia wouldn't be able to back Yanukovich up as fiercily, maybe there would be demonstrations anyway (it's 40% of Ukrainians against Yuschenko after all), maybe the Western Media wouldn't want to talk about someone who's against them (so we wouldn't even discuss)... everything would need to be analysed differently.

I'm shaking in my jammies.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 His second in command is Yulia Timoschenko, and she's planning to become a prime minister. Since they are planning on transferring the majority of the power from the president to the prime minister, that basically means that she'll be the one in charge of the country. And she has done a lot of shady and probably illegal business in the past that made her become the richest person in Ukraine.

Come on, that's a misinformation. She's far from being the richest person (maybe just a richest lady), and I doubt she'll be a prime minister in the close time.
Everybody here who has some wealth in his pocket had to do "a lot of shady and probably illegal business", just because here was no place for fair business for the last 15 years (or a whole century). Yuschenko is a real chance for a change of this matter.

Lira has a correct point, but it's not applicable to Ukraine. On the top of all, we are not Madagascar, so the people on the streets now are fighting (or rather, standing) for the freedom and not for getting under western influence.
You see all these lilac regions -- any wonder how they got such result? Being pro-russian is just one side of the medal, the other is a complete media blackout for Yuschenko combined with outrageous slander. I'd say that 90% of Yanukovich election campaign was anti-Yuschenko mendacious propaganda (of course on anonymous basis, still the anonymous anti-Yuschenko clips were getting the prime airtime on central TV channels all over the country).
The people of eastern Ukraine were persuaded that Yuschenko is a nazi, who will ban the use of russian language and enslave all people who won't obey etc. I'm speaking seriously. Also anti-american slogans were used heavily, particularly chewing over the fact that Yuschenko's wife was born in US.
Of course a lot of people did not trust this sharp practice, but their votes sunk in the falsification.

People who voted for Yanukovich on the east, were rather voting against Yuschenko. In the other hand, a huge percent of these who voted for Yuschenko also dedicated their votes against Yanukovich, and that's a paradox of Ukrainian 2004 elections.

Kyiv, the capital and the largest city, gave 65% to Yuschenko in the first election round, and up to 80% in the second. The key -- the powers that were pushing Yanukovich were unable to block opposition TV channels and newspapers in the capital city, in addition Kyiv population is the most intelligent and educated on average among the country (so, it's easier to resist a dumb propaganda). Plus, internet access, which is well widespread in the capital -- you can't censor the internet no matter how much power you have, can you?

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Originally posted by Lira Picking sides on the Ukrainian elections if you're not Ukrainian is as pointless as debating whether Bush or Kerry should've won if you're not American. Unless you're thinking about your own situation (i.e. how would my country benefit from the results?), then you shouldn't use the word democracy (or freedom, for that matter), so clearly state your intentions.

Interesting topic about the numb nuts.

Anyway, I find it beneficial to talk/discuss about topics that don't relate to your country. Even if at times, because of one's low quantity of information and sometimes high quantity of misinformation, one comes out as an arrogant fool full of ignorance. You always benefit from debating because at the end of it all you're hopefully learning something new. It doesn't matter if it doesn't pertain to your country.

I agree that it is sometimes risky to pick sides when knowing about only one side, and more when you know so little about that given side. But that's all a part of a learning process. It is normal that some people choose sides. But keep in mind that it is through debating or talking/writing about issues with other people that one learns something new at the end of the day.

And by this debating you gather more information and you will have a more solid base about the side you chose. It doesn't matter if it's Yuschenko or Yanukovich. It doesn't really. It only matters that you know something.

Ugh, I know all of you probably are familiar with what I typed above but I just needed to make a post to make myself feel important and somewhat wise.

I wish a pleasant day/night/evening to all of you.

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Originally posted by deenamo Lira has a correct point, but it's not applicable to Ukraine. On the top of all, we are not Madagascar, so the people on the streets now are fighting (or rather, standing) for the freedom and not for getting under western influence.

But I did say you guys weren't Madagascar. In fact, Ukraine is very important because of its strategical location, amount of nuclear missiles after the collapse of the Soviet Union, coal, amount of nuclear missiles after the collapse of the Soviet Union, beautiful girls and amount of nuclear missiles after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Not necessarily in this order

The freedom you're fighting for comes along with a stronger western influence. Under Yuschenko, it doesn't seem possible to have one without the other.

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Originally posted by deenamo You see all these lilac regions -- any wonder how they got such result? Being pro-russian is just one side of the medal, the other is a complete media blackout for Yuschenko combined with outrageous slander. I'd say that 90% of Yanukovich election campaign was anti-Yuschenko mendacious propaganda (of course on anonymous basis, still the anonymous anti-Yuschenko clips were getting the prime airtime on central TV channels all over the country). The people of eastern Ukraine were persuaded that Yuschenko is a nazi, who will ban the use of russian language and enslave all people who won't obey etc. I'm speaking seriously. Also anti-american slogans were used heavily, particularly chewing over the fact that Yuschenko's wife was born in US. Of course a lot of people did not trust this sharp practice, but their votes sunk in the falsification.

I hope this doesn't sound rude but this is something I'm struggling to understand: how come people were deceived only in half of the country?

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Originally posted by deenamo People who voted for Yanukovich on the east, were rather voting against Yuschenko. In the other hand, a huge percent of these who voted for Yuschenko also dedicated their votes against Yanukovich, and that's a paradox of Ukrainian 2004 elections.

This is quite usual actually.

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Originally posted by deenamo Kyiv, the capital and the largest city, gave 65% to Yuschenko in the first election round, and up to 80% in the second. The key -- the powers that were pushing Yanukovich were unable to block opposition TV channels and newspapers in the capital city, in addition Kyiv population is the most intelligent and educated on average among the country (so, it's easier to resist a dumb propaganda). Plus, internet access, which is well widespread in the capital -- you can't censor the internet no matter how much power you have, can you?

Yes, the Chinese government can. Besides, if Yanukovich controlled TV and radio, the internet could naturally be extremly pro-Yuschenko, to counter-balance the situation, as his supporters needed a place to speak, after all.

As for Kyiv and intelligence, I have an ex who lives there (and is incredibly intelligent), and voted for Yanukovich. This example alone nulls the relation between both statements.

In case you're wondering, I'm not defending Yanukovich, but claiming Yuschenko is a saviour, as the western media seems to, seems a bit off-limits.

In any case, you're the one who's going to vote so think wisely and do what you feel better for your country - it's your opinion that matters

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Originally posted by ierxium Interesting topic about the numb nuts. Anyway, I find it beneficial to talk/discuss about topics that don't relate to your country. Even if at times, because of one's low quantity of information and sometimes high quantity of misinformation, one comes out as an arrogant fool full of ignorance. You always benefit from debating because at the end of it all you're hopefully learning something new. It doesn't matter if it doesn't pertain to your country. I agree that it is sometimes risky to pick sides when knowing about only one side, and more when you know so little about that given side. But that's all a part of a learning process. It is normal that some people choose sides. But keep in mind that it is through debating or talking/writing about issues with other people that one learns something new at the end of the day. And by this debating you gather more information and you will have a more solid base about the side you chose. It doesn't matter if it's Yuschenko or Yanukovich. It doesn't really. It only matters that you know something. Ugh, I know all of you probably are familiar with what I typed above but I just needed to make a post to make myself feel important and somewhat wise. I wish a pleasant day/night/evening to all of you.

I said "picking sides" was pointless, not debating (otherwise there would be no reason for me to be posting, right?). You don't need to necessarily pick sides. In fact, when you discuss about another country, you can be more unbiased than if you were talking about the place you live in. Thus the discussion could give you a more accurate view, which would be helpful if a similar situation ever happens in your homeland.

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Originally posted by Cal I'm shaking in my jammies.

What is this piece of information useful for...? Unless your jammies play a critic role in the elections, I can't see what the contribution could be.

This shit is crazy...

update

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December 08, 2004 Yushchenko before and after: smooth-faced only five months ago and pock-marked by the effects of poison (AP) Who poisoned Yushchenko? From Jeremy Page in Kiev Doctors at the Austrian clinic that treated Ukraine�s opposition leader confirm there was a plot to kill him MEDICAL experts have confirmed that Viktor Yushchenko, Ukraine�s opposition leader, was poisoned in an attempt on his life during election campaigning, the doctor who supervised his treatment at an Austrian clinic said yesterday. Doctors at Vienna�s exclusive Rudolfinerhaus clinic are within days of identifying the substance that left Mr Yushchenko�s face disfigured with cysts and lesions, Nikolai Korpan told The Times in a telephone interview. Specialists in Britain, the United States and France had helped to establish that it was a biological agent, a chemical agent or, most likely, a rare poison that struck him down in the run-up to the presidential election, he said. Doctors needed to examine Mr Yushchenko again at the clinic in Vienna to confirm their diagnosis but were in no doubt that the substance was administered deliberately, he said. �This is no longer a question for discussion,� Dr Korpan said. �We are now sure that we can confirm which substance caused this illness. He received this substance from other people who had a specific aim.� Asked if the aim had been to kill him, Dr Korpan said: �Yes, of course.� Proof that Mr Yushchenko was deliberately poisoned would be a devastating blow for his rival, the Prime Minister, Viktor Yanukovych, as the two candidates prepare for a repeat of a presidential run-off on December 26. It would raise questions about whether the poisoning was ordered by Mr Yanukovych, his allies, or even the Kremlin, which fears that Mr Yushchenko will take Ukraine out of its sphere of influence by joining Nato and the EU. Mr Yushchenko had said recently that he would soon reveal proof that his opponents had tried to assassinate him, but a spokeswoman said he had no plans to travel to Vienna. Mr Yushchenko fell ill on September 6 and was rushed to Rudolfinerhaus four days later with severe abdominal pain and lesions on his face and trunk. His liver, pancreas and intestines were swollen and his digestive tract covered in ulcers, but doctors could not explain the symptoms. Against their advice he went back on the campaign trail after a week, but returned to the clinic two weeks later with back pain. Again he returned to campaigning, with his face half paralysed and a catheter inserted in his back so that doctors � still baffled � could inject painkillers into his spinal column. Rudolfinerhaus doctors had previously said that they did not have medical evidence to back up or rule out deliberate poisoning. Mr Yanukovych�s supporters ridiculed the opposition, saying the illness was probably caused by bad sushi, too much cognac or a severe case of herpes. A parliamentary investigation found no evidence of poisoning. But Dr Korpan said that toxicologists and other experts at laboratories in Britain, the US and France had since examined Mr Yushchenko�s blood samples and medical records. �We will reveal the results in the near future and confirm the cause of this mysterious illness,� he said. �We need to check him again here in Vienna. If we received him today, we could finish the whole investigation in two or three days.� He declined to say exactly what the substance might have been, or where it might have come from. �Maybe it was administered through injection, maybe in water, maybe through eating, but the way to give it to him is very simple. This substance can be given very precisely � to only one person,� he said. John Henry, a prominent British toxicologist, has suggested that Mr Yushchenko�s symptoms were consistent with dioxin poisoning, which causes a severe form of acne called chloracne. Doctors at Rudolfinerhaus did not initially test Mr Yushchenko for dioxin, in part because his skin changes were not as severe as they are now. He also refused a biopsy of his face because he did not want to campaign with stitches. Other doctors have suggested that Mr Yushchenko may have been struck down by a rare illness. Dr Korpan said that Mr Yushchenko should be able to make a full recovery but needed to get back to the clinic. �We are waiting to check him as soon as possible and then we can say what he needs.� He said Mr Yushchenko was no longer having injections, but was taking a combination of vitamins and medicine to boost his immune system. The offices of Leonid Kuchma, the outgoing President, and Mr Yanukovych did not comment on Dr Korpan�s disclosure. But Viktor Pinchuk, Mr Kuchma�s billionaire son-in-law, said in a recent interview he did not believe that there was evidence that Mr Yushchenko was poisoned. �I believe he is sure it was poisoning. He�s not a liar. But some people from his camp created this provocation against him, his image, the government and the country,� he said.

Ukraine has no nuclear arms. All the missiles were carted off to Russia after the separation.

Yanukovich stands for closer ties to Russia. Yanushenko stands for closer ties to EU and US. I'm not thrilled about the US part, but lately Russia scares me almost as much as the US, and I'm not at all impressed with the massive fraud on Yanikovich's part.

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Originally posted by Cal Ukraine has no nuclear arms. All the missiles were carted off to Russia after the separation.

That's why I had said "after the collapse of the Soviet Union" - It was the 3rd country with most missiles, as I recall it, but they later renounced or something. It clearly shows that Ukraine really is a strategic region (otherwise these missiles would be located elsewhere).

I should've used a better expression, my bad.

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Originally posted by Lira But I did say you guys weren't Madagascar. In fact, Ukraine is very important because of its strategical location, amount of nuclear missiles after the collapse of the Soviet Union, coal, amount of nuclear missiles after the collapse of the Soviet Union, beautiful girls and amount of nuclear missiles after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Not necessarily in this order

Ditto, no nuclear missiles in Ukraine. If we still had them, I think it would be better for us... Coal, who da funk needs it. Polish and chinese coal is cheaper than ukrainian.
So far, only beautiful girls left

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The freedom you're fighting for comes along with a stronger western influence. Under Yuschenko, it doesn't seem possible to have one without the other.

Well I can't say it's so obvious... Still, freedom in tie with western influence is much better than dependance in tie with eastern influence Being ukrainian, I consider that western influence is much much better for the development of my country.

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I hope this doesn't sound rude but this is something I'm struggling to understand: how come people were deceived only in half of the country? This is quite usual actually.

OK I'll try to explain...
Both candidates are from the east of Ukraine (though Yuschenko's native Sumy region is "orange"). Both of them were prime ministers of the country (Yuschenko in 2000-2001, and Yanukovich in 2003-2004).
However, before prime minister position, Yuschenko was the head of the central bank (for 8 years), and Yanukovich was a governor of Donetsk region. Yanukovich is directly tied with all major businessmen and oligarchs of Donetsk and bordering regions, they were sponsoring his whole campaign. Also there's an opinion (and I'm sharing it) that Yanukovich is not a self-dependent politician but the joint will of these people.

In these eastern regions, almost any big business and all media is under control of this clan. So, these regions were a "stronghold" of Yanukovich, and his campaign was based on them. Everywhere else, on the central and western Ukraine, people were actively refusing their influence. Also, the falsifications were overwhelming exactly on the east, where all possible state powers were working for Yanukovich. On the "orange" territories, they were less insuperable and couldn't beat the real will of the people.

Moreover, Yanukovich hired russian(!) political scientists to develop and work on his campaign, and this was his biggest mistake. These people were trying to apply russian political technologies in the campaigh, but come on, it also worked only on the east -- where the people are more pro-russian.

This built a picture you see on that map. Also, the regions of Kherson and Dnipropetrovsk are close to be 50/50.
Anyway, I believe we'll see a completely different map after a re-vote in 17 days. Maybe just Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea will stay lilac (or rather, the colour of Yanukovich campaign is blue-white). But without the fucking 95% votes with 105% attendance

I'd repeat a map here for a convenience:

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Yes, the Chinese government can. Besides, if Yanukovich controlled TV and radio, the internet could naturally be extremly pro-Yuschenko, to counter-balance the situation, as his supporters needed a place to speak, after all.

Yeah Chinese goverment does, but I doubt it's technically possible to do it with 100% effect... I believe there is access to some opposition information, and we really should not know about it
Ukrainian goverment TRIED, the national telecommunication company did block several sites (including one which was collecting all anecdotes about Yanukovich), but it only caused another laugh... Their users have quickly learned to use proxies

The internet was indeed a opposition fortress, online polls on the neutral sites showed results of near 90% for Yuschenko. But, internet cannot anyhow counter-balance the traditional media in Ukraine, as only 5% of all population has regular internet access.

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As for Kyiv and intelligence, I have an ex who lives there (and is incredibly intelligent), and voted for Yanukovich. This example alone nulls the relation between both statements.

I would like to know the reasons. I would bet that this person is related to the current powers, or elsehow satisfied with current state of the matters, business rules etc.
And also I've met a lot of really wise people (from the east) with really inept motivation to vote for Yanukovich.
Or, for example, djash who has posted here... His post and his reasons really make me want to vomit, but what stops me is realizing that he's one a million

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In case you're wondering, I'm not defending Yanukovich, but claiming Yuschenko is a saviour, as the western media seems to, seems a bit off-limits.

No, in neither case. I clearly understand your position and I do support you having it. It's always good to be suspicious of the politics

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In any case, you're the one who's going to vote so think wisely and do what you feel better for your country - it's your opinion that matters

Yup, this is my opinion and it's strong and well motivated, I can provide a hundred of reasons why vote for Yuschenko and against Yanukovich.

Actually this never have been a question for me, as I'm following Yuschenko's deeds since 1991 and I do trust his person. On the other side I would never vote for a stupid ugly ex-con (I'm really unbiassed here), who drove the country to a serious economical crisis in last 2 years, to be my president.

Just day by day of the campaign, my position grew like a snowball so in final I was agitating for Yuschenko as much as I could, and volunteered as an independent observer on the voting day.

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I said "picking sides" was pointless, not debating (otherwise there would be no reason for me to be posting, right?). You don't need to necessarily pick sides. In fact, when you discuss about another country, you can be more unbiased than if you were talking about the place you live in. Thus the discussion could give you a more accurate view, which would be helpful if a similar situation ever happens in your homeland.

It's pointless to pick a side without any analyzing of the situation, just "to be with everybody else". However, when you look through the facts, debate, and then take a shape and start supporting a side -- I think it's good.

At least, the support of the global public was vital in our protest. In the first days, when the whole world has seen Kyiv's Independence Square full of people wearing orange stuff, guess what -- ukrainian state TV blackouted this topic, a lot of people in Ukraine did not have a clue that anything like this is happening (though in several days the journalists revolted against the censorship and TV got much better).

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Originally posted by Lira That's why I had said "after the collapse of the Soviet Union" - It was the 3rd country with most missiles, as I recall it, but they later renounced or something. It clearly shows that Ukraine really is a strategic region (otherwise these missiles would be located elsewhere). I should've used a better expression, my bad.

Duh, that's obvious, all borders of USSR (Ukraine was the western) were strategic regions

My hometown was among the first ones to support Yuschenko.

That fag Kuchma still refuses to sign, and acknowledge the Supreme Court's decision of Yanokovich not being president. What the fuck?

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Originally posted by Lira I said "picking sides" was pointless, not debating (otherwise there would be no reason for me to be posting, right?). You don't need to necessarily pick sides. In fact, when you discuss about another country, you can be more unbiased than if you were talking about the place you live in. Thus the discussion could give you a more accurate view, which would be helpful if a similar situation ever happens in your homeland.

I missed that by miles.

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Originally posted by deenamo Duh, that's obvious, all borders of USSR (Ukraine was the western) were strategic regions

But Ukraine was among the most important bordering regions (if it wasn't the most important one). Being larger than Bielarus and Lithuania, it could be considered the gateway not only to all the satellite states but to Western Europe as well.

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Originally posted by deenamo Ditto, no nuclear missiles in Ukraine. If we still had them, I think it would be better for us... Coal, who da funk needs it. Polish and chinese coal is cheaper than ukrainian. So far, only beautiful girls left

[color=a6e135][font=arial]I mentioned coal because it of Ukraine's rich soil. In fact, it's got iron ore, coal, manganese, natural gas, oil, salt, sulfur, graphite, titanium, magnesium, kaolin, nickel, mercury, timber, arable land... not to mention that this "arable land" is one of the most fertile lands in the world (gah, I can never remember the name... it's cherno-something).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ukrainian coal more expensive because of its better quality? I remember Brazilian coal is cheap because it's very recent (i.e. of poor quality).

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Originally posted by deenamo Well I can't say it's so obvious... Still, freedom in tie with western influence is much better than dependance in tie with eastern influence Being ukrainian, I consider that western influence is much much better for the development of my country.

As far as I can see, Ukraine would benefit from Western Influence only, and only if, Russia became something similar to a counter-Western power (such as Soviet Union). That would inspire a Western massive economic help, such as what happened in Japan and (Western) Germany, in order to avoid the loss of their influence in a finally allied Ukraine.

Linking "Western" influence to "freedom" is a faith much more than a fact. 40 years ago, for example, the United States supported a military coup d'etat in Brazil, which isn't democratic by any means. No need to talk more about Brazil because I'd just go off-topic.

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Originally posted by deenamo OK I'll try to explain... Both candidates are from the east of Ukraine (though Yuschenko's native Sumy region is "orange"). Both of them were prime ministers of the country (Yuschenko in 2000-2001, and Yanukovich in 2003-2004). However, before prime minister position, Yuschenko was the head of the central bank (for 8 years), and Yanukovich was a governor of Donetsk region. Yanukovich is directly tied with all major businessmen and oligarchs of Donetsk and bordering regions, they were sponsoring his whole campaign. Also there's an opinion (and I'm sharing it) that Yanukovich is not a self-dependent politician but the joint will of these people.

Don't they belong to political parties? Every politian represents a certain group (even independent ones must have people supporting him, otherwise they wouldn't be elected in a democracy). You can have your disagreements with the people by whom Yanukovich is supported, but you can't say that being tied is a fact against a certain candidate, because this would be true to all others.

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Originally posted by deenamo In these eastern regions, almost any big business and all media is under control of this clan. So, these regions were a "stronghold" of Yanukovich, and his campaign was based on them. Everywhere else, on the central and western Ukraine, people were actively refusing their influence. Also, the falsifications were overwhelming exactly on the east, where all possible state powers were working for Yanukovich. On the "orange" territories, they were less insuperable and couldn't beat the real will of the people.

Forgive me if this is not your point of view, but most Yuschenko supporters seem to believe everyone who prefers Yanukovich is deluded by some reason. Can't they just have a different opinion?

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Originally posted by deenamo Moreover, Yanukovich hired russian(!) political scientists to develop and work on his campaign, and this was his biggest mistake. These people were trying to apply russian political technologies in the campaigh, but come on, it also worked only on the east -- where the people are more pro-russian.

I can't see the problem of having Russian political scientists to work for his campaign. It worked on the East, and most likely this was their target. They achieved what they wanted. They're pro-Russian, what else could you expect?

No advert is bad - you just happen not to be the person the advert was made for.

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Originally posted by deenamo This built a picture you see on that map. Also, the regions of Kherson and Dnipropetrovsk are close to be 50/50. Anyway, I believe we'll see a completely different map after a re-vote in 17 days. Maybe just Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea will stay lilac (or rather, the colour of Yanukovich campaign is blue-white). But without the fucking 95% votes with 105% attendance I'd repeat a map here for a convenience:

But why would the East change, if you don't mind me asking? They seem to fear Yuschenko.

(Is "blue-white" what Russians call "galuboy"? I thought that was a rather "gay" colour in Russian culture, which doesn't make much sense in the context )

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Originally posted by deenamo Yeah Chinese goverment does, but I doubt it's technically possible to do it with 100% effect... I believe there is access to some opposition information, and we really should not know about it Ukrainian goverment TRIED, the national telecommunication company did block several sites (including one which was collecting all anecdotes about Yanukovich), but it only caused another laugh... Their users have quickly learned to use proxies

As I recall it, the Chinese government simply blocks a list of censored words so you get 110% of censorship, as the sytem might censor something completely unrelated to what they don't want citizens to see.

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Originally posted by deenamo The internet was indeed a opposition fortress, online polls on the neutral sites showed results of near 90% for Yuschenko. But, internet cannot anyhow counter-balance the traditional media in Ukraine, as only 5% of all population has regular internet access.

Wouldn't on-line polls simply show the opinion of 5% of the population then? That would be a very biased poll, showing the interests of a priviledged class that's got access to the internet[/b]

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Originally posted by deenamo I would like to know the reasons. I would bet that this person is related to the current powers, or elsehow satisfied with current state of the matters, business rules etc.

She doesn't seem to like the current system very much. As a matter of fact, she just dislikes it less than Yuschenko's government plans.

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Originally posted by deenamo Yup, this is my opinion and it's strong and well motivated, I can provide a hundred of reasons why vote for Yuschenko and against Yanukovich. Actually this never have been a question for me, as I'm following Yuschenko's deeds since 1991 and I do trust his person. On the other side I would never vote for a stupid ugly ex-con (I'm really unbiassed here), who drove the country to a serious economical crisis in last 2 years, to be my president. Just day by day of the campaign, my position grew like a snowball so in final I was agitating for Yuschenko as much as I could, and volunteered as an independent observer on the voting day.

Nice

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Originally posted by deenamo It's pointless to pick a side without any analyzing of the situation, just "to be with everybody else". However, when you look through the facts, debate, and then take a shape and start supporting a side -- I think it's good.

Once you pick a side, you'll be against the other one, so you might overlook the good things of the person/party/... you're not fond of. The more neutral you are, the better view you can have of both sides.

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Originally posted by Cal That fag Kuchma still refuses to sign, and acknowledge the Supreme Court's decision of Yanokovich not being president. What the fuck?

Hmmm it's prime minister position, not president -- he has never been proclaimed as the president, only the "election winner"

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Originally posted by Lira I mentioned coal because it of Ukraine's rich soil. In fact, it's got iron ore, coal, manganese, natural gas, oil, salt, sulfur, graphite, titanium, magnesium, kaolin, nickel, mercury, timber, arable land... not to mention that this "arable land" is one of the most fertile lands in the world (gah, I can never remember the name... it's cherno-something). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ukrainian coal more expensive because of its better quality? I remember Brazilian coal is cheap because it's very recent (i.e. of poor quality).

You are correct, we have perfect natural conditions. Ukraine can be independent of foreign resources -- we've even got our own uranium and a bit of oil. But all this richness is misused -- to know why, just take a peek in the history. 70 years of USSR made people really whacked, and the revolution we have experienced -- well, I believe it's an early bird of nation rebirth.

Ukrainian coal is hard to mine, as the coal-beds which are not yet duffer are deep and thin -- this makes the coal expensive. Also the mines use the technologies of the soviet industrialization times (1930-1940), especially in safety measures... Approximately one miner a day dies in the accidents and gas explosions. Why so? Simply, somebody puts all state grants into own pocket. Guess who.
This industry is unprofitable for Ukraine, and all coal mines are subsidized.

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As far as I can see, Ukraine would benefit from Western Influence only, and only if, Russia became something similar to a counter-Western power (such as Soviet Union). That would inspire a Western massive economic help, such as what happened in Japan and (Western) Germany, in order to avoid the loss of their influence in a finally allied Ukraine. Linking "Western" influence to "freedom" is a faith much more than a fact. 40 years ago, for example, the United States supported a military coup d'etat in Brazil, which isn't democratic by any means. No need to talk more about Brazil because I'd just go off-topic.

Well this depends on what sense you mean with "influence". Russia is not a top league player on a world map nowadays, so the Japan/German/Korea scenarios are unlikely. Also I am against use of my country's territory for any counter-Russia deterrents, so I will be actively resisting any manifestations. Please note that US is (thankfully) not a major supporter of Ukrainian processes (at least, seemingly) -- and the support of EU & Canada is not mistrustful.
Anyway, with the "influence", I would prefer to meet a global acceptance and partnership for the country.

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Don't they belong to political parties? Every politian represents a certain group (even independent ones must have people supporting him, otherwise they wouldn't be elected in a democracy). You can have your disagreements with the people by whom Yanukovich is supported, but you can't say that being tied is a fact against a certain candidate, because this would be true to all others.

They do, and Yanukovich's fraction is crucial for the old corrupt regime.
Yuschenko formed his opposition party after he was sacked from the prime minister chair, and the opposition fraction in the parliament looks much more professional and effective. Thankfully it is strong enough to resist the pressure of the regime, this is something that Russia and Belarus missed one day.

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Forgive me if this is not your point of view, but most Yuschenko supporters seem to believe everyone who prefers Yanukovich is deluded by some reason. Can't they just have a different opinion?

To have a different opinion with a reason just to have a different opinion, like djash who lives in Lviv? Otherwise their outlook is marginal, I think and this is my personal opinion that it's abnormal to vote for a person who was imprisoned in the tender age of 17 and 19 for robbery and thrashing, plus accusation of rape and embezzlement. Plus this person is almost illiterate, he made 19 mistakes in 50 words of his official candidate application (the word "proFFessor" then stuck to his image). This is all official info.
The inofficial is -- he's pure mafia, and even not a great boss but just a ventriloquist doll in the hands of the others.

He is the greatest ever mistake of the regime, and now when they lost they have taken it -- they try to cancel the elections and start over with a new candidate

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I can't see the problem of having Russian political scientists to work for his campaign. It worked on the East, and most likely this was their target. They achieved what they wanted. They're pro-Russian, what else could you expect? No advert is bad - you just happen not to be the person the advert was made for.

Do you really think such advert is applicable for the president candidate in one of the lagrest european countries?
I really doubt it. Yuschenko's campaign was targetted for all territory of Ukraine, but it was just blackouted.

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But why would the East change, if you don't mind me asking? They seem to fear Yuschenko. (Is "blue-white" what Russians call "galuboy"? I thought that was a rather "gay" colour in Russian culture, which doesn't make much sense in the context )

The ad colours are two -- white and blue, but you hit it -- the word "galuboy" is oftenly used in the folk discussion of the opposite side But please don't take such discussions seriously, people just have a moral right for this as the Yanukovich "fans" are calling us nazi and american venals

You are correct putting the word "fear", but the East would change for several reasons:
- There never has been 95% of support for Yanukovich, it's a fraud
- There is no more media pressure, as the journalists rose against censorship two weeks ago so we have more "clean" channels and newspapers now.
- Cities of Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, Odessa held massive actions together with Kyiv, so people who were voting for Yuschenko now are sure that they are numerous in their regions

We have two weeks, and Yuschenko team should now work really well on the East, with the new conditions they are able to do a good agitational campaign.

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[/b]Wouldn't on-line polls simply show the opinion of 5% of the population then? That would be a very biased poll, showing the interests of a priviledged class that's got access to the internet[/b]

That's correct... But it reveals one serious problem. Those who have access to the internet, have free access to tons of information, can analyze it, debate, and make a own decision. Those who see only pro-Yanukovich and anti-Yuschenko TV, newspapers and leaflets, can't.

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She doesn't seem to like the current system very much. As a matter of fact, she just dislikes it less than Yuschenko's government plans.

OK I see that she's just misinformed. I can tell you that Yuschenko's government plans are OK Moreover, the official election programs of Yuschenko and Yanukovich are almost identical, although Yanukovich pledges were published a month after Yuschenko's

If I ask you, could you please pass her several URLs I'd give?

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Once you pick a side, you'll be against the other one, so you might overlook the good things of the person/party/... you're not fond of. The more neutral you are, the better view you can have of both sides.

Sure. Also neutral discussions are much more informative.
Please excuse me for not being neutral as this is my civil position

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