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No Jay, you're a pseudo-anarchist. You may claim to be liberal but one need look no further than your pro-tobacco arguments to recognize that you appear to be against laws of any kind, no matter what their purposes are.

The liberalism you're talking about is the old Liberal Capitalism, which is what I believe in - the three inalienable rights (life, private property, and the pursuit of happiness) and the role of government in protecting those rights, which means criminalization of any behaviour that directly infringes on someone else's rights. In your case, you hold private property rights near and dear but don't seem to recognize the other two beyond the terminally obvious like first-degree murder.

So please, don't go around calling yourself a liberal, because you're not a liberal by either the post-modern definition or the conventional definition. And Canadian Liberals are certainly not conservatives in disguise, because most of them genuinely believe in the tax-and-spend economy in addition to all those "fad" left-wing media issues. I understand the reasoning you're using - that "liberal" implies "freedom" and the hard left is far too oppressive to rightly be placed in that category, but "conservative" implies traditional values, traditional wisdom and a small government, which is even further from the reality.

Please Jay - the last thing we need is yet another form of equivocation thrown into the mix here. You've got a pretty good track record for not getting wrapped up in asinine semantic debates - so keep that up and don't try to get any deeper into this one.

And to the rest - sorry to veer off topic so much, but semantics and equivocation (� l� Chomsky) are one of my pet peeves.

I agree that semantics are silly. However i must say that I am not against law and order. I am against governments or organizations dictating how one should live life. I am against social engieneering by any means other than unbiased education. My #1 belief is that the government should only help you break a habit, lifestyle, etc when you ask for that help and that it is their duty to provide the proper education you need to know the consequences of unhealthy beaviour whether it be drugs, smoking, alcohol, sex etc.

Im also against double standards. People who stand there and preach to me about the dangers of second hand smoke and then go on to start a thread about the joys of pot smoking come to mind.

^^^ it's mind boggling that you still compare 2nd hand smoke to pot smoking...it's getting frustrating...how the f**k are those anything resembling similar issues???

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Originally posted by DigiNut No Jay, you're a pseudo-anarchist...

thank you!!! I very much agree, haha...

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Originally posted by MarkT ^^^ it's mind boggling that you still compare 2nd hand smoke to pot smoking...it's getting frustrating...how the f**k are those anything resembling similar issues??? thank you!!! I very much agree, haha...

because they are both smoke that you inhale thats why. If somebody tells me pot smoking is good for you i'll laugh.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 But i DO NOT think a child should have 2 mommies or two daddies or a mommy and no daddy or a daddy and no mommy. It is my belief that whatever the arrangement, it is essential for a child to have both a stable male and female role model in their life.

I disagree.

I won't get into intimate personal details - but my mother has been the BEST role model I've had in my life (father, step-father or otherwise) and I like to think that as a result both my brother and myself have ended up to be happy, contributing, successful and good people.

Having a mommy or daddy (or both, or two) isn't what results in a child growing up to be a happy, contributing, successful, good person.

Being in a home where a child knows that they are loved and supported unconditionally, a home that sets reasonable limits/rules, communicates them effectively and enforces consequences if they are transgressed and overall sets forth a good role model for a child to follow is what produces a good outcome.

It is ESSENTIAL for a child to have a strong support structure (moral, academic and otherwise) - and that is not interdependent on both a male or female role model for parental figures. Such an environment can be created with a single parent, both parents, a community, other family members or any other loving relationship.

Your views are nuclear family-esque - and frankly based on my experience, applying the 1950's cookie-cutter approach to our rapidly evolving society no longer is appropriate.

Homos that want to adopt children are VERY greedy and selfish individuals. They're willing to sacrifice the mental, social and developmental health of the adopted child for their own selfish desire to have kids.

Unless we want a Brave New World where all kids are born in test tubes, traditional marriage must be saved.

Martin is a dictator: no elected Senate, no review of judges, almost no free votes, etc.

Now he's said that there will be no referendum on same-sex marriage. Outrageous!

A tiny (1-2%) minority of the population will now impose their will on the rest of us.

This is a sad day indeed.

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Originally posted by Sexyboy79 Hahaha this will be the fall of your goverment. Jesus will come back you siners. LOL. Kidding i am a athiest but the right wingers of here in america are crazy like that... Sexyboy

were in buffalo u from???

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf Homos that want to adopt children are VERY greedy and selfish individuals. They're willing to sacrifice the mental, social and developmental health of the adopted child for their own selfish desire to have kids. Unless we want a Brave New World where all kids are born in test tubes, traditional marriage must be saved.

The desire to have kids or even adopt is not out of greed or selfishness but rather out of love. This is ************ of sexuality. You concern yourself with the mental health of the child? Oh please, the child needs a loving and nurturing environment go grow up in. The parents' sexual preference has nothing to do with it.

Your idea of the "Brave New World" is from the movies. Perhaps you should leave your perfect make-believe world and come back to reality.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf Homos that want to adopt children are VERY greedy and selfish individuals. They're willing to sacrifice the mental, social and developmental health of the adopted child for their own selfish desire to have kids. Unless we want a Brave New World where all kids are born in test tubes, traditional marriage must be saved.

My muslim brother.. why are you so angry? Freedom for all! Even immigrants like you!

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Originally posted by Tordan The desire to have kids or even adopt is not out of greed or selfishness but rather out of love. This is ************ of sexuality. You concern yourself with the mental health of the child? Oh please, the child needs a loving and nurturing environment go grow up in. The parents' sexual preference has nothing to do with it.

Only a man and a woman can make a baby. Rationalize it all you want, you can't get past this fact.

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Your idea of the "Brave New World" is from the movies.

Actually it's a book.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King My muslim brother.. why are you so angry? Freedom for all! Even immigrants like you!

Interesting issue: how do you Fuslims feel about homosexuality?

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0303/81.html

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf Unless we want a Brave New World where all kids are born in test tubes, traditional marriage must be saved.

lol, so you're saying that now that same sex marriage is allowed all the str8 people are going to start marrying their own sex and traditional marriage is a thing of the past?? if that's not what you're saying then what are you worried about....all the breeders are still going to get married, spit out their kids, and then get divorced a few years later......

you're traditional marriage is safe and sound....

also,how do you argue that the gay community is only 1-2% of the population yet gay marriage will mean the downfall of the family unit as we know it......you can't argue it both ways...

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf Only a man and a woman can make a baby. Rationalize it all you want, you can't get past this fact.

True, but when they can't make a baby of their own or a surrogate is not an option they adopt. Rationalize that.

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Originally posted by Tordan True, but when they can't make a baby of their own or a surrogate is not an option they adopt. Rationalize that.

Since only a man and a woman can have children, only a man and a woman should raise children.

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Originally posted by DigiNut private property

so wait.. YOU'RE NOT A COMMUNIST ??

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf Interesting issue: how do you Fuslims feel about homosexuality? http://www.hvk.org/articles/0303/81.html

You should know that answer my muslim brohter. Its in your blood. Allah Akbar

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King You should know that answer my muslim brohter. Its in your blood. Allah Akbar

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=227366

still waiting for shadowolf to respond to my comments a few posts up......

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Originally posted by torontobarfly still waiting for shadowolf to respond to my comments a few posts up......

It's not just about two people minding their own business doing their own thing.

They're FORCING us to accept their definition of marriage.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf They're FORCING us to accept their definition of marriage.

they're telling you what the government recognizes as marriage...whether or not you accept it is up to you...you're not being forced to like it or embrace it....you're church doesn't have to enforce it.....if it doesn't affect you directly why does it bother you so much....

and as you claim,if the percentage of gay people is so small why even worry about the family unit being tarnished....

when it boils down to it this issue doesn't change you or your life in any way....if you don't agree on it based on your moral beliefs then argue that...but don't say that it's going to ruin marriage as we know it and change the scope of the world, because it isn't...

My attitudes on this are not necissarily cookie cutter nuclear because i described many different scenarios that do not necissarily describe a "traditional setting". The only constant in all scenarios were that there were a strong female and male role model in the child's upbringing regardless of whether the family were gay or hetrosexually based. I think many gay people would probably also agree with my assessment. The fact that 2 genders exist in this world is simply the reason why 2 genders need to be present as a child shapes his/her ideas about the world. Otherwise the child is getting only half the story in my opinion.

Again let me stress that i am not against same sex adoption as long as there is an agreed third party who is of opposite sex who will also "parent" that child.

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Originally posted by torontobarfly you're not being forced to like it or embrace it....

I am being forced to embrace it. A gay relationship IS NOT equivalent to a straight one (as to children, etc.).

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and as you claim,if the percentage of gay people is so small why even worry about the family unit being tarnished....

A family is a man, a woman, and their children. The government is legitimizing something other than that.

***

Gay civil unions may be a legitimate alternative, but marriage is a special relationship that homosexuals can never experience.

And that's just too bad. When you choose that lifestyle, one of the things you give up is the right to get married.

That's life.

something to remember is that there are gay people that are against same sex marriage and adoption.....not every gay person is union minded,lol......

with the divorce rate the way it is i think the "traditinal" marriage is not so easy to describe anymore....conventional families have their share of problems too.....just because a kid has a mother and a father doesn't mean he's coming out an angel.....lots of single or same sex parented kids come out in pretty good shape with a good head on their shoulders and a strong sense of values....

quote:

Originally posted by torontobarfly .lots of single parented kids come out in pretty good shape with a good head on their shoulders and a strong sense of values....

yes, but they're the exception... kids of single parents are at a disadvantage (economicly and emotionally).

I want kids to get the very best, and that means two parents.

quote:

with the divorce rate the way it is i think the "traditinal" marriage is not so easy to describe anymore.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Anyway, divorce should be illegal except where there's fault (abuse, etc.).

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