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The crucifiction staged...?

1) When Jesus says he is thirsty, he is given a sponge soaked in vinegar (maybe as a sadistic torture?), and as soon as he smells it he breathes his last breath. However, vinegar (or soured wine) is a stimulant similar to smelling salts, it should have given him a pick-me-up. This suggests that it was not vinegar but some kind of soporific drug designed to knock him out giving the temporary appearance of being dead...

2) Jesus was crucified in the private property of Josehp of Arimathea (who according to the Gospels was a secret deciple of Jesus...hmmmmm)

3) The crucifiction was not a public affair as is belived. The crowds witnessed it "from afar" (Luke 23:49)

4) So, a private crucifiction on the private property of one of Jesus' deciples...a little bit suspicious no? However, to fake the crucifiction, even tho easy for the crowd who dont have a very good view, you need the help of the Romans to make it work...

5) The historical Pilate was known to be corrupt, he would not have been above taking a bribe (and Joseph was a rich man...)

6) As well as acknowleging Jesus as King of the Jews, he also allows Jesus' body to be returned to Joseph for burial (even tho according to Roman law at the time, crucified men were denied all burial)

7) In English translations of mark's gospel, Joseph asks Pilate for Jesus' body, which is accepted. However, in the original Greek version, Joseph asks for "soma" which is only used to describe a living body

So, how's that for a conspiracy theory eh?!

Why would Pilate give Jesus's body (dead or alive) to Joseph of Arimathea against all Roman protocol?

Maybe you should do a bit of cross referencing while your at it..

oxford english dictionary (ninth edition)

Diety.(pl -ies)

1.a god or goddess

2.divine status,quality,or nature

3.(the diety)the creator,god

id believe that conspiracy theory but wtf do i know im an atheist..

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Originally posted by George Smiley The crucifiction staged...? 1) When Jesus says he is thirsty, he is given a sponge soaked in vinegar (maybe as a sadistic torture?), and as soon as he smells it he breathes his last breath. However, vinegar (or soured wine) is a stimulant similar to smelling salts, it should have given him a pick-me-up. This suggests that it was not vinegar but some kind of soporific drug designed to knock him out giving the temporary appearance of being dead... 2) Jesus was crucified in the private property of Josehp of Arimathea (who according to the Gospels was a secret deciple of Jesus...hmmmmm) 3) The crucifiction was not a public affair as is belived. The crowds witnessed it "from afar" (Luke 23:49) 4) So, a private crucifiction on the private property of one of Jesus' deciples...a little bit suspicious no? However, to fake the crucifiction, even tho easy for the crowd who dont have a very good view, you need the help of the Romans to make it work... 5) The historical Pilate was known to be corrupt, he would not have been above taking a bribe (and Joseph was a rich man...) 6) As well as acknowleging Jesus as King of the Jews, he also allows Jesus' body to be returned to Joseph for burial (even tho according to Roman law at the time, crucified men were denied all burial) 7) In English translations of mark's gospel, Joseph asks Pilate for Jesus' body, which is accepted. However, in the original Greek version, Joseph asks for "soma" which is only used to describe a living body So, how's that for a conspiracy theory eh?! Why would Pilate give Jesus's body (dead or alive) to Joseph of Arimathea against all Roman protocol?

where do u get this stuff??

1. it was late in the afternoon. since the night before, jesus was constantly being beaten, to the point of almost dying from the beating before the crucifixion. he couldnt carry his own cross, another man carried it for him. the sponge wasnt full of venegar. it was full of something called "wine venegar". it was wine.

The Death of Jesus
28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, �I am thirsty.� 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, �It is finished.� With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

and your accusation of a saporic drug?? where is this from?? your saying the romans helped him stage his own death? using knock out drugs?? u think they even knew what a drug was back then?? when your in shock, u tend to become thirsty. and when you are in shock, u tend to die quickly. true venegar is a stimulant type acid. his heart was already beating very very fast as it does in shock trying to get blood to the vital organs. what do u think a stimulant would do? that stimulant gave him the last strength to finally say, it is finished. and he died. if he was temporarily dead, then what did he do for the rest of his life then? hide somewhere until he died for real? thats foolishness.

2. Jesus was crucified at a place call golgotha, not the joseph you are refering to.

Matthew 27:33
They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).
Mark 15:22
They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).
Luke 23:33
When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals�one on his right, the other on his left.
John 19:17
[The Crucifixion] So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).

3. actually, it was a public affair. the verse u provided is this.
Luke 23:
49And all the acquaintances of [Jesus] and the women who had followed Him from Galilee stood at a distance and watched these things.

it says his acquaintances and the women who followed him stood at a distance. it doesnt say, all the public watched from afar.

4. first of all, it wasnt where u say it was, and it was watched by the public very closely. and what good would it be for the romans to help jesus fake his own death. thousands of christians were executed by the romans for the next several centuries. and the romans hated the jewish outpost. it was remote, far from home, and the jews were rebelling every chance they get. why would they want to help one stage his death?

5. First of all, lets get joseph out of this. he had nothing to do with the crucifixion. all he did was take jesus's body and prepare it for burial. that's it!! provide evidence instead of the propaganda im assuming youve been taught by your islamic teachers, that pilate was currupt. he wanted nothing from the jews. the romans considered themselves superior to the jews, and so why would he accept a bribe from a lowly jew even though he was already wealthy. he didnt need any money from any jew.

6. i cant really see how u can fake nails through ones hands and feet and blood, and the beating 2000 thousand years ago. but jesus's body wasnt "returned" to joseph. joseph wanted a proper burial for this great man jesus. and the centurion in charge gave him the body. the centurian himself was amazed at this man. the sky got dark, and there was an earthquake at jesus's last breathe. if i were him, i forget about roman law myself and hand over the body of this man for his rightful burial.

7. ill say again. the centurion in charge gave the body of jesus to joseph. no pilate. pilate didnt want to be involved and we can see that through his stance that "this man is innocent", and his sending of jesus away to herod to be judged. pilate "reluctantly" ordered jesus crucified. show me this greek translation. so i can research it myself.

hows that for a conspiracy theory?? its horrible. i dont know what u have been told, but its totally false, and has basis or evidence behind it. ill say again pilate didnt get involved after he sent jesus away to be executed. the centurion in charge gave the body of jesus to joseph. and the events that were happening while jesus was dying was supernatural, earthquake, darkening of the sky, do u think Roman protocol meant that much to a centurion disgruntled about having to be in this place so far from home, and on top of that, seeing all these strange things happen around this man??

LOL @ My "Islamic teachers"!!!

Suppose my new flag can be a little decieving...

Anyway...

Why was Jesus allowed a burial - explain that

As for the vinegar (wine vinegar or soured wine) it is a stimulant and would not have the affect it did have on Jesus

Do I think they knew what drugs were at that time? Of course they did! I suspect it was a compound of opium and/or belladonna, commonly used in the Middle East during that time

As for Golgotha (despite meaning place of the skull) the Gospels describe the place Jesus was crucified at ashaving a garden and a private tomb, which matthew says is Josephs property

"At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there." (John 19:41)

"s evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock" (Matthew 27:60)

So they you are! Its Gospel! (get it?!)

Anyway, Jesus was crucified next to the tomb he was buried in (John), and that tomb belonged to Joseph of Aramithea (Matthew), therefore, Jesus was crucified on Josephs property...

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it says his acquaintances and the women who followed him stood at a distance. it doesnt say, all the public watched from afar.

it doesn't say they were near either...

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4. first of all, it wasnt where u say it was, and it was watched by the public very closely. and what good would it be for the romans to help jesus fake his own death. thousands of christians were executed by the romans for the next several centuries. and the romans hated the jewish outpost. it was remote, far from home, and the jews were rebelling every chance they get. why would they want to help one stage his death?

I guess it would be the same reasons they let Joseph have the body...

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First of all, lets get joseph out of this. he had nothing to do with the crucifixion. all he did was take jesus's body and prepare it for burial. that's it!!

Well thats quite a significant "thats it" no? Burrying the son of God?! So lets not leave him out of it seeing as he is the most significant person at the crucifiction (seeing as he has some how managed to wrangle a burial out of the Romans as well as having his land used for the crucifiction)

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he wanted nothing from the jews. the romans considered themselves superior to the jews, and so why would he accept a bribe from a lowly jew even though he was already wealthy. he didnt need any money from any jew.

Well, as a little subtopic, as you've decended into Mel Gibson mode...

Do you not find it strange that it is somehow the Jews that get blamed for Jesus' death? Yet Jesus had Zealots (Jewish terrorists) amongst his deciples...do you not find it strange that the Romans get off so lightly? They are in occupation of Jewish land, the Jews, which Jesus is one,hate the Romans and their barbaric ways, yet they are all so holier than tho in the Bible? You wanna know why...cos they wrote the bloody thing! Summat like 350AD the Bibe was compiled and everything that was politically uncorrect (like dissing the Romans, gospels that stated jesus was human not devine,and anything that supported womens rights (as taught by jesus)) was left out...anyway...

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ill say again. the centurion in charge gave the body of jesus to joseph. no pilate

Yes Pilate, pilate yes! You obviously haven't been reading your Bible lately have you?! (And I have never read it once and I seem to know more than you! )

"50Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, 51who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea and he was waiting for the kingdom of God. 52Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body." (luke)

"Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away" (john)

Now obviously Pilate aint gonna march down there himself and personally hand over Jesus body, he'd get a centurian to do it, but it was Pilate who Joseph asked, and it was Pilate that granted the extremely unusual gesture...(!)






Ok, so this is a plagiarised theory, but it is ALL based on passages of the Bible




Before you start disecting my post and answering it, answer me this first...

Why did Pilate allow Jesus' body (remember, Jesus was a Jew, who you describe as lowly and inferior to the Romans) to be given to Joseph for burial?

still waiting..getting bored now

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley LOL @ My "Islamic teachers"!!! Suppose my new flag can be a little decieving... Anyway... Why was Jesus allowed a burial - explain that As for the vinegar (wine vinegar or soured wine) it is a stimulant and would not have the affect it did have on Jesus Do I think they knew what drugs were at that time? Of course they did! I suspect it was a compound of opium and/or belladonna, commonly used in the Middle East during that time As for Golgotha (despite meaning place of the skull) the Gospels describe the place Jesus was crucified at ashaving a garden and a private tomb, which matthew says is Josephs property "At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there." (John 19:41) "s evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock" (Matthew 27:60) So they you are! Its Gospel! (get it?!) Anyway, Jesus was crucified next to the tomb he was buried in (John), and that tomb belonged to Joseph of Aramithea (Matthew), therefore, Jesus was crucified on Josephs property... it doesn't say they were near either... I guess it would be the same reasons they let Joseph have the body... Well thats quite a significant "thats it" no? Burrying the son of God?! So lets not leave him out of it seeing as he is the most significant person at the crucifiction (seeing as he has some how managed to wrangle a burial out of the Romans as well as having his land used for the crucifiction) Well, as a little subtopic, as you've decended into Mel Gibson mode... Do you not find it strange that it is somehow the Jews that get blamed for Jesus' death? Yet Jesus had Zealots (Jewish terrorists) amongst his deciples...do you not find it strange that the Romans get off so lightly? They are in occupation of Jewish land, the Jews, which Jesus is one,hate the Romans and their barbaric ways, yet they are all so holier than tho in the Bible? You wanna know why...cos they wrote the bloody thing! Summat like 350AD the Bibe was compiled and everything that was politically uncorrect (like dissing the Romans, gospels that stated jesus was human not devine,and anything that supported womens rights (as taught by jesus)) was left out...anyway... Yes Pilate, pilate yes! You obviously haven't been reading your Bible lately have you?! (And I have never read it once and I seem to know more than you! ) "50Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, 51who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea and he was waiting for the kingdom of God. 52Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body." (luke) "Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away" (john) Now obviously Pilate aint gonna march down there himself and personally hand over Jesus body, he'd get a centurian to do it, but it was Pilate who Joseph asked, and it was Pilate that granted the extremely unusual gesture...(!) Ok, so this is a plagiarised theory, but it is ALL based on passages of the Bible Before you start disecting my post and answering it, answer me this first... Why did Pilate allow Jesus' body (remember, Jesus was a Jew, who you describe as lowly and inferior to the Romans) to be given to Joseph for burial?

quote:

Before you start disecting my post and answering it, answer me this first... Why did Pilate allow Jesus' body (remember, Jesus was a Jew, who you describe as lowly and inferior to the Romans) to be given to Joseph for burial?...

strange circumtances surrounding jesus, pilate believed him to be innocent, the jews wanted the bodies off the cross and buried before the sabbath which was the next day. joseph asked for the body because he believed in who jesus was and wanted to give it a proper burial. simple as that.

ok, i just hadnt been in this thread after u posted. ah, well i didnt know where u heard of this conspiracy theory so i assumed by your flag, u have an islamic education or something.

quote:

Why was Jesus allowed a burial - explain that

Mark 15:
38The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and[d] saw how he died, he said, �Surely this man was the Son[e] of God!�

do u think the law was enforced to the book, like it is today. "sir your violating rule #45853 on page 846 paragraph 3, stating *blah blah blah*.

The Burial of Jesus
42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

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31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

the jews asked for the bodies to be taken down.

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As for the vinegar (wine vinegar or soured wine) it is a stimulant and would not have the affect it did have on Jesus Do I think they knew what drugs were at that time? Of course they did! I suspect it was a compound of opium and/or belladonna, commonly used in the Middle East during that time

i just described the effect it would have had in my earlier post. provide evidence for their so-called knowledge of drugs?? they had herbal remedies, but they didnt have "drugs". stop theorizing and go to facts.

quote:

As for Golgotha (despite meaning place of the skull) the Gospels describe the place Jesus was crucified at ashaving a garden and a private tomb, which matthew says is Josephs property "At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there." (John 19:41)

your false. where in mathew does it day that joseph owned the garden and private tomb??

quote:

"as evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock" (Matthew 27:60) So they you are! Its Gospel! (get it?!) Anyway, Jesus was crucified next to the tomb he was buried in (John), and that tomb belonged to Joseph of Aramithea (Matthew), therefore, Jesus was crucified on Josephs property...

joseph asked for the body so he could bury. where in mathew does it say he owned the garden?? pilate gave him the body because the jews wanted the bodies down anyways, sabbath was the next day and they had laws of cleaniness. where does it say joseph owned the tomb? again, more unfounded assumptions.

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it doesn't say they were near either...

what?? clearly it states, his acquaintances and the women who followed him from galilee stood at a distance. it doesnt say, the public stood at a distance. its clear, because the accounts of his death describe people mocking him while he's on the cross, and hearing him say "my god, my god, why have u forsaken me." they took this to be him calling for elijah to take him down. how could they hear this if they were far away??

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I guess it would be the same reasons they let Joseph have the body...

would u want the responsibility of burying a body?? why not give it joseph who wanted a proper jewish burial?? and the other jews wanted the bodies out of sight for the sabbath.

quote:

Well, as a little subtopic, as you've decended into Mel Gibson mode... Do you not find it strange that it is somehow the Jews that get blamed for Jesus' death? Yet Jesus had Zealots (Jewish terrorists) amongst his deciples...do you not find it strange that the Romans get off so lightly? They are in occupation of Jewish land, the Jews, which Jesus is one,hate the Romans and their barbaric ways, yet they are all so holier than tho in the Bible? You wanna know why...cos they wrote the bloody thing! Summat like 350AD the Bibe was compiled and everything that was politically uncorrect (like dissing the Romans, gospels that stated jesus was human not devine,and anything that supported womens rights (as taught by jesus)) was left out...anyway...

yes another assumption. im not blaming the jews. it was god's will for this to happen. because jesus died is because a christian has salvation. if he hadnt died, nobody would be getting saved. where are the jewish zealots u claim jesus had?? the jews persecuted the christians just as bad as the romans did. as for the second half of your paragraph, i have no clue what u are trying to say...

quote:

Yes Pilate, pilate yes! You obviously haven't been reading your Bible lately have you?! (And I have never read it once and I seem to know more than you! ) "50Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, 51who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea and he was waiting for the kingdom of God. 52Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body." (luke) "Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away" (john) Now obviously Pilate aint gonna march down there himself and personally hand over Jesus body, he'd get a centurian to do it, but it was Pilate who Joseph asked, and it was Pilate that granted the extremely unusual gesture...(!)

true, its hard to remember small facts like that out of the thousands that are given. but how does this prove anything? my mistake that i made the mistake of saying the centurion gave permission for the body to be taken, when really it was pilate. but how does my mistake prove your point that its all made-up??

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: strange circumtances surrounding jesus, pilate believed him to be innocent, the jews wanted the bodies off the cross and buried before the sabbath which was the next day. joseph asked for the body because he believed in who jesus was and wanted to give it a proper burial. simple as that.

The Romans would not bend the rules for Jews as you say, they didn't like them. There must have been somekind of deal of collaberation with the Romans to have them give permission to let Jesus be burried.

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ok, i just hadnt been in this thread after u posted. ah, well i didnt know where u heard of this conspiracy theory so i assumed by your flag, u have an islamic education or something.

LOL! I'm English and have been Christened...

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i just described the effect it would have had in my earlier post. provide evidence for their so-called knowledge of drugs?? they had herbal remedies, but they didnt have "drugs". stop theorizing and go to facts.

Have to do that later to find other sources

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your false. where in mathew does it day that joseph owned the garden and private tomb??

evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in HIS OWN NEW TOMB that he had cut out of the rock" (Matthew 27:60) - from this we know Joseph owned the tomb Jesus was buried in - correct

At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there." (John 19:41) - from this we know Jesus was crucified at the same place he was burried - at the site of Josophs Private tomb

There is only one new tomb in the garden Jesus was burried in so he was crucified in Josephs garden

quote:

joseph asked for the body so he could bury. where in mathew does it say he owned the garden?? pilate gave him the body because the jews wanted the bodies down anyways, sabbath was the next day and they had laws of cleaniness. where does it say joseph owned the tomb? again, more unfounded assumptions.

see above

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what?? clearly it states, his acquaintances and the women who followed him from galilee stood at a distance. it doesnt say, the public stood at a distance. its clear, because the accounts of his death describe people mocking him while he's on the cross, and hearing him say "my god, my god, why have u forsaken me." they took this to be him calling for elijah to take him down. how could they hear this if they were far away??

So nobody who knew Jesus was near him? Everyone who knew him (knew what he looked like etc) were at a distance? And even then thats assuming the rest of the people were near him which there is no evidence

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where are the jewish zealots u claim jesus had?? the jews persecuted the christians just as bad as the romans did.

Simon is described as a Zealot, and other disiples express Zealot tendencies

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as for the second half of your paragraph, i have no clue what u are trying to say...

Well do a Google search for the Gospels of Thomas and Mary, then check out where they appear in the Bible...

Wow, religion is so enticing these days.

Anyways, no one seemed to reply to Renegade's post which was the last one directly related to the topic of this whole thread!

My theory on religion, in the long and short of it: I'm a rational guy and this whole religion commotion is too irrational for me to grasp.

All my life I have been taught things that have been either scientifically or mathematically proven. Water boils at 100 degrees celsius? Why? Just boil it and see. 1+1 is 2- why? Just add them and see. Religion is the only subject that cannot be independently verified- you just have to believe. There is also no room to doubt as that would amount to sinning which doesn't say something good about religion in my opinion.

I don't believe in ghosts because I have never met one and they have not been scientifically and readily verified. Same applies to religion and God. I don't see why I should believe in stories and myths built upon miracles upon myths just as much as I should believe in Santa Claus.

Another thing I don't understand is why you TranceVanDyk are trying so hard to convince everybody that they are not aethist. Inferiority complex? I wouldn't call myself aethist anyways, but strongly agnostic.

Assuming by some unfathomable miracle that God does exist, my question to you is which religion is right? Have you stopped to consider that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. are all just as convinced as you are about their religion?

So is ancient Jewish history really a sham?

quote:

Originally posted by razmataz Wow, religion is so enticing these days. Anyways, no one seemed to reply to Renegade's post which was the last one directly related to the topic of this whole thread! My theory on religion, in the long and short of it: I'm a rational guy and this whole religion commotion is too irrational for me to grasp. All my life I have been taught things that have been either scientifically or mathematically proven. Water boils at 100 degrees celsius? Why? Just boil it and see. 1+1 is 2- why? Just add them and see. Religion is the only subject that cannot be independently verified- you just have to believe. There is also no room to doubt as that would amount to sinning which doesn't say something good about religion in my opinion. I don't believe in ghosts because I have never met one and they have not been scientifically and readily verified. Same applies to religion and God. I don't see why I should believe in stories and myths built upon miracles upon myths just as much as I should believe in Santa Claus. Another thing I don't understand is why you TranceVanDyk are trying so hard to convince everybody that they are not aethist. Inferiority complex? I wouldn't call myself aethist anyways, but strongly agnostic. Assuming by some unfathomable miracle that God does exist, my question to you is which religion is right? Have you stopped to consider that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. are all just as convinced as you are about their religion? So is ancient Jewish history really a sham?

*thumbs up*

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: oh, he didnt?? where are his remains?

Probably in the same place where all the bones of transitional fossils are. Lost and eaten away.

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why were there more than 500 eye-witnesses who saw him. the accounts of his life were written by eye-witnesses, and there were 4 accounts of his life, each written with a different aspect in mind. the romans have account of that gaurds were posted at his tomb to ward off the possibility of his followers taking his body and claiming he rose from the dead. but the gaurds abandoned the tomb because something scared them so much, that they just ran. the huge door to the tomb was rolled open, and no body was found. he appeared to more than 500 people. not just a few. and it was he himself, in the flesh, because thomas actually touched his wounds because he was skeptical himself. he even ate with his disciples. jesus did certainy rise from the dead.

Yes, well, except that nobody mentions any of these happenings except the bible. If we examine roman historical records of the time, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, which is quite odd considering that he was a pretty important figure in Judea at the time. As far as the gospels go, their first appearance in written form was dated to about a 100 or so years after the described events occured. George Smiley's post about a private crucifiction and faked death and ressurection is probably based on Dead Sea scrolls and a supposed 5th gospel (I forgot who was it that wrote that one) that's been thrown out of the bible at Council of Nicaea in 4th century, when christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Now, the supposed 5th gospel said that Golgotha was in a private backyard of one of Jesus's acquaintances (I also forgot whose) and described the events as George said above. What we know for certain is that aside from rearraging the bible, easter and christmass dates were set on that council to battle against pagan festivities. Most pagan religions had some sort of a solar festivity celebrating the new year and a new beginning as the days became longer. Christmass was set up on december 25th to interfere with that celebration and to give it christian spirit. Same goes for easter, it was originally a spring festival of procreation, and that's why you still have rabbits and eggs around for easter. It's a remnant of a pagan holiday.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Probably in the same place where all the bones of transitional fossils are. Lost and eaten away. Yes, well, except that nobody mentions any of these happenings except the bible. If we examine roman historical records of the time, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, which is quite odd considering that he was a pretty important figure in Judea at the time. As far as the gospels go, their first appearance in written form was dated to about a 100 or so years after the described events occured. George Smiley's post about a private crucifiction and faked death and ressurection is probably based on Dead Sea scrolls and a supposed 5th gospel (I forgot who was it that wrote that one) that's been thrown out of the bible at Council of Nicaea in 4th century, when christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Now, the supposed 5th gospel said that Golgotha was in a private backyard of one of Jesus's acquaintances (I also forgot whose) and described the events as George said above. What we know for certain is that aside from rearraging the bible, easter and christmass dates were set on that council to battle against pagan festivities. Most pagan religions had some sort of a solar festivity celebrating the new year and a new beginning as the days became longer. Christmass was set up on december 25th to interfere with that celebration and to give it christian spirit. Same goes for easter, it was originally a spring festival of procreation, and that's why you still have rabbits and eggs around for easter. It's a remnant of a pagan holiday.

Not sure what that other Gospel says but the info from "my theory" comes from clues in the Bible (ie when John and Matthews account are put together the crucifiction has to be in Josephs garden)

And your quite right, the Bible was "edited" in around 350AD and many Gospels that didn't go along with what the church wanted to tell people got left out (there was a clash between those who claimed Jesus was devine (the victorious) and those who claimed he was mortal, like the Gnostics who were wiped out by the Catholic church)

good discussion guys keep it up,i dont have much to add here but i find the reading material here fascinating from all peoples points of view,regardless of my own position

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Originally posted by zig good discussion guys keep it up,i dont have much to add here but i find the reading material here fascinating from all peoples points of view,regardless of my own position

Dont you get Channel 4 in Ireland? There was a programme on xmas day called who wrote the Bible that was pretty interesting...

http://www.channel4.com/believe

Ye we get all the uk channels here inc ch4,i auctually saw that programme advertised but there were a few young kids here on xmas day hogging the tv and video recorder,glad u reminded me definatly look out for a repeat..interesting topic

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Originally posted by zig Ye we get all the uk channels here inc ch4,i auctually saw that programme advertised but there were a few young kids here on xmas day hogging the tv and video recorder,glad u reminded me definatly look out for a repeat..interesting topic

Yea the repeat was on two days ago!!

There is a book, which I intend to buy at some point, called "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels that gives the history of early xtianity and talks about the gospels that were left out

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Originally posted by zig Ye we get all the uk channels here inc ch4,i auctually saw that programme advertised but there were a few young kids here on xmas day hogging the tv and video recorder,glad u reminded me definatly look out for a repeat..interesting topic

wait a sec...your telling me that little kids demanded to watch either eastenders or midsummer murders*??? or was there some irish programme on? or worse yet...can you afford sky?!









*midsummer murders is excellent tho!

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Yea the repeat was on two days ago!!

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can you afford sky?!

Well as regards the repeat,i guess thats why they call Tranceaddict,addict,to much time in here on days off..hate that..book sounds interesting..and as my mam is of the old fashioned veriety as regards xmas presents(socks,shaving cream and a book voucher..true..lol)ill probably check that out..and bore the arse off everyone quoting endless passages in here..hehe


yep i can afford sky..guy next door has it 24/7 football in his house other mates have it as well,myself couldnt be arsed

as regards the kids,think it was shrek and then harry potter for afters..

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Originally posted by zig Well as regards the repeat,i guess thats why they call Tranceaddict,addict,to much time in here on days off..hate that..book sounds interesting..and as my mam is of the old fashioned veriety as regards xmas presents(socks,shaving cream and a book voucher..true..lol)ill probably check that out..and bore the arse off everyone quoting endless passages in here..hehe yep i can afford sky..guy next door has it 24/7 football in his house other mates have it as well,myself couldnt be arsed as regards the kids,think it was shrek and then harry potter for afters..

Balls

Don't make excuses mate! I watched the whole of Harry Potter...

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Don't make excuses mate! I watched the whole of Harry Potter...

ow ye i forgot about the adults..7 in total..3 bottles of wine..9 cans of larger..14 cans of guinness draught..half a bottle of sherry..some bacardi breezers..gin and more larger to boot and then we watched harry potter..half the adults fell asleep..and i just disappeared and had a big spliff..christmas day is great..anyway happy new year mate and dont drink tooo much is my advice..hehe have a good one

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Originally posted by George Smiley The Romans would not bend the rules for Jews as you say, they didn't like them. There must have been somekind of deal of collaberation with the Romans to have them give permission to let Jesus be burried.

really? the jews had him executed. why would they care if jesus was buried or not? pilate believed jesus to be innocent.

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Have to do that later to find other sources

yea, and i bet they had a Walgreens on every corner

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evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in HIS OWN NEW TOMB that he had cut out of the rock" (Matthew 27:60) - from this we know Joseph owned the tomb Jesus was buried in - correct At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there." (John 19:41) - from this we know Jesus was crucified at the same place he was burried - at the site of Josophs Private tomb There is only one new tomb in the garden Jesus was burried in so he was crucified in Josephs garden

but how does this support that it was all set up?

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So nobody who knew Jesus was near him? Everyone who knew him (knew what he looked like etc) were at a distance? And even then thats assuming the rest of the people were near him which there is no evidence

your twisting my words. his acquaintances and the women who followed him from galilee. im ganna have to use the dictionary again..

Main Entry: ac�quain�tance
Pronunciation: &-'kwAn-t&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 a : the state of being acquainted b : personal knowledge : FAMILIARITY
2 a : the persons with whom one is acquainted b : a person whom one knows but who is not a particularly close friend

the people who knew jesus personally, talked to him, etc. were at a distance. the public was nearby watching. the pharisees hurled insults at him while he was on the cross. "He says he can save the world, yet he cant even save himself." and people heard the words jesus said when he said, "it is finished", 'today u will be with me in paradise", "im thirsty", "My God, My God, why have u forsaken me?". this is the evidence there were close observers. where is your evidence that there wasnt?

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Simon is described as a Zealot, and other disiples express Zealot tendencies

none of the disciples were zealots, except for judas, who hung himself. and u probably think they staged that too. and that they staged the marks on jesus's hands and feet and side. but whatever. paul was a former zealot, but none of the disciples were zealots.

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Well do a Google search for the Gospels of Thomas and Mary, then check out where they appear in the Bible...

no, i meant that it was unreadable. unless the gospels of thomas and mary are in the bible, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 ...If we examine roman historical records of the time, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, which is quite odd considering that he was a pretty important figure in Judea at the time....

Two words:

Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37-100).

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�Jewish Antiquities�, by Flavius Josephus. Book 18, Chapter 3, paragraphs 1-3 Chapter 3. Rebellion of the Jews against Pontius Pilate. Concerning Christ, and what befell Paulina and the Jews at Rome. 1. (55) But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Caesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; (56) on which account the former procurators were accustomed to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the nighttime; (57) but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Caesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; (58) and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to surround them, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. (59) But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Caesarea. 2. (60) But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews [1] were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. (61) So he outfitted a great number of his soldiers in the clothing of the crowd, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he directed the Jews himself to go away; but when they boldly cast reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; (62) who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were disorderly, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them killed by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this rebellion. 3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.

Flavius Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus. He was also a Jew. His complete works are available online or in your local library/bookstore. You can find his works in the Judaica section.

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Originally posted by Sevas Stra That is trully a pointless reply...

yes

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Originally posted by George Smiley The crucifiction staged...? ...7) In English translations of mark's gospel, Joseph asks Pilate for Jesus' body, which is accepted. However, in the original Greek version, Joseph asks for "soma" which is only used to describe a living body So, how's that for a conspiracy theory eh?! Why would Pilate give Jesus's body (dead or alive) to Joseph of Arimathea against all Roman protocol?

In Strongs Concordance the word soma is number 4983 meaning:

1. the body both of men or animals
   a) a dead body or corpse
   b) the living body
   1) of animals
   
2. the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
   
3. is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
   a) so in the NT of the church
   
4. that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself
   

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: really? the jews had him executed. why would they care if jesus was buried or not? pilate believed jesus to be innocent. [quote] All the more reason to help him then... [quote]no, i meant that it was unreadable. unless the gospels of thomas and mary are in the bible, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

That is absolutely ridiculous. If they are not in the Bible then not only is it relevent it makes it more relevant...

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