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-- So now the Government is going to tell you what kind of car you can drive
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Originally posted by Jayx1 im sure diesel is cleaner burning for the atmosphere. That still doesnt change my opinion that IT STINKS!!!

That's the smell of victory, my friend.

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Originally posted by VERTiG0 That's the smell of victory, my friend.

victory makes me cough LOL

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Originally posted by Jayx1 I think Hitler and Saddam both tried

I said a BETTER way :P But yeah, at least they tried.

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Originally posted by amb_ This is one piece of legislation that I would be inclined to support... In fact, I am going to call my MP's office right now and express that fact.

indeed.

I'm a car *freak* and I would support this legislation.

Once again, Jayx1 feels that people have a "right" to do whatever the fuck they want, including driving whatever car they want

guess what...there are a shitload of cars, in europe for example, that can't be sold here because they don't meet our crash safety ratings. So what's the difference between meeting crash safety or fuel economy guidelines?

there is NO reason that so many people need to be driving gas guzzling, fatality increasing SUVs when the only "off roading" they do is skid into a ditch in the winter because they feel invulnerable in their mostrosity of a vehicle

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Originally posted by MarkT So what's the difference between meeting crash safety or fuel economy guidelines?

I think there's a *slight* difference between a product that's dirty and a product that could potentially kill its owner.

they both could kill the owner

fuck the government of canada. they're a bunch of theives.

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Originally posted by DigiNut I think there's a *slight* difference between a product that's dirty and a product that could potentially kill its owner.

ah, you know what I mean...why is that not considered government interference in our choices. Why can't I choose an AWD Ford Focus RS vs. the crap they give us here (I support the bumper guidelines...this is just an example).

the real, tangible consequences from this situation have less to do about the government "interfering in our right to choose our car" (as Jayx1 would say) than they do for car manufacturers who earn the bulk of their profit from their SUVs and luxery cars.

Ford LOSES money on every Focus sold in Canada (unless that's changed recently)...but profit margins on feature-laden luxery cars and SUVs are huge. So this type of decision would really affect the Canadian market and the car makers and dealerships.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Maybe people turn out as idiots because they're sheltered from the real world.

And Americans are idiots because they're ignorant of the real world.

Americans don't care what the lying hippies say about the environment, because it is their self proclaimed god given right as an American to drive the most unnecessary, gas guzzling, fastest, most deadly huge hunks of steal they can get their hands on.

Disclaimer: not all Americans are idiots.

I can't wait til the day the government tells me what kind of boxers I can wear ...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I can't wait til the day the government tells me what kind of boxers I can wear ...

Nah, boxers won't be allowed. Anal retentive bureaucrats wear tighty whities.

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Originally posted by MarkT indeed. Once again, Jayx1 feels that people have a "right" to do whatever the fuck they want, including driving whatever car they want

God forbid that I should advocate freedom,

In the case of cars though, they DO pollute the air and cause environmental damage. I actually have no problem with legislation forcing dealers to better fuel economy and reduce emmisions. It's somewhat the same as smoking in my book, it has the potential to harm OTHER people, not just yourself. Obviously they can't ban cars unless they're going to provide us with a perfect transportation system (hah! yeah right), so forcing dealers to make 'cleaner' cars is actually a decision I support. They aren't banning SUVs per se, they're saying that they need to meet their requirements before they can be sold. I think we have all the speed and acceleration we need for now... it's time to catch up on the effeciency side of things. 2010 though? That's more than a little outrageous. I'm a fan of compromise, and 2010 is not a fair timeline at all.

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Originally posted by SurrJRS And Americans are idiots because they're ignorant of the real world.

Americans are idiots for many reasons, but being ignorant of the real world isn't one of them. THAT honour falls to the Canadians, and comments like the one you just posted are the proof.

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Originally posted by MarkT ah, you know what I mean...why is that not considered government interference in our choices. Why can't I choose an AWD Ford Focus RS vs. the crap they give us here (I support the bumper guidelines...this is just an example). the real, tangible consequences from this situation have less to do about the government "interfering in our right to choose our car" (as Jayx1 would say) than they do for car manufacturers who earn the bulk of their profit from their SUVs and luxery cars. Ford LOSES money on every Focus sold in Canada (unless that's changed recently)...but profit margins on feature-laden luxery cars and SUVs are huge. So this type of decision would really affect the Canadian market and the car makers and dealerships.

Be that as it may, forcibly cutting into a company's profits in the name of the environment when we (a) don't have legitimate proof that the company is seriously hurting the environment and (b) can't produce any real evidence that hurting the environment is somehow detrimental to our quality of life, is no more "moral" than taking away the consumer's freedom to choose their car.

Will Ontario roads be safer with SUVs gone? Almost certainly. Does that make it OK to ban them? No.

There is always a balance that has to be reached with rules and regulations. Crash test safety is important; it's not even just to protect the driver but also any passengers he/she may have who aren't necessarily aware of the risk they'd be taken riding in a car that explodes on impact. The Drive Clean program has yet to produce any documented tangible benefits to us, and these oppressive fuel-efficiency guidelines will take nanny-ism to a new extreme.

Ontario seems to have this penchant for trying to adopt all of California's failed policies under the headline of "it was a good idea, they just implemented it wrong, we're going to do it RIGHT!". And EVERY SINGLE TIME, it fucks up the country/province as a result. When are people going to learn that just because California did something doesn't mean we should do it?

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Originally posted by Jayx1 God forbid that I should advocate freedom,

freedom isn't absolute, without limitation...never has been, never will be.

A responsible gov't takes action when industry and consumers are too greedy, lazy and complacent to curb their own behaviour...it's quite likely that in our lifetime, some very real consequences of the declining oil reserves will be felt.

Who's going to take the blame when gas prices go through the roof and hit European levels or higher? The government...because people have that silly sense of entitlement that they should all have cars, cheap insurance and cheap gas.

I'd love to see a big, fat tax on every SUV sold...I mean something like several thousand dollars PER VEHICLE...and have that money put DIRECTLY into improving public transit.

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Originally posted by MarkT I'd love to see a big, fat tax on every SUV sold...I mean something like several thousand dollars PER VEHICLE...and have that money put DIRECTLY into improving public transit.

Ahh, you see, if they actually put that money into improving public transit, and had a concrete plan for how to spend it, I'd support the tax too.

Unfortunately, responsible government in Canada is at an all-time low. That's one huge reason why I simply will never support any tax that they throw at us - because it's guaranteed to be foolishly squandered.

The biggest problem with the tax-and-spend liberal mentality is that the government is not simply a machine-like "filter" as those people would like it to be; the government is in fact made up of real people, much like those in the corporate world, who are subject to the same weaknesses of greed and corruption. But to add insult to injury, the government is also NOT ACCOUNTABLE for its spending or its actions in general.

Does it really make sense to take money from people who, despite their greed, are aiming to innovate and improve production, and give it to people who are practically guaranteed to sink it into some useless personal or political interest? That's a bulletproof recipe for a failing economy.

yet we happily take their word for it when they say they'll match Tsunami donations dollar for dollar

I'm sure there could be *some* mechanism to be put into place to ensure the money went to transit, no?

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Originally posted by MarkT yet we happily take their word for it when they say they'll match Tsunami donations dollar for dollar I'm sure there could be *some* mechanism to be put into place to ensure the money went to transit, no?

funny thing about that. The government is pretending to be so generous to match dollar for dollar but sadly people forget that THEY ARE SPENDING OUR MONEY. So really when you give, you give twice. But hell, people buy it and they get re-elected so it's all good.

I tend to not get suckered in by being bribed with my own money but thats just me

If ya want an SUV but not the size & the shit fuel milage?....get a Subaru Outback

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Originally posted by MarkT yet we happily take their word for it when they say they'll match Tsunami donations dollar for dollar I'm sure there could be *some* mechanism to be put into place to ensure the money went to transit, no?

LOL, yeah that is pretty funny. It's sort of the same when you think about our government paying interest on the debt with tax money - Canadians own more than 80% of the debt, so they're essentially taking money from us in order to make the minimum payments on loans they took out on us. Brilliant...

I'm sure you're right - there could certainly be some mechanism. But they key word is COULD. There are plenty of things that are possible in THEORY. But it's never going to happen here in Canada. As I recall, the Conservative government actually implemented balanced budget laws in Ontario at one point, and the subsequent Liberal government promptly repealed them. I can certainly see our government slapping a tax on SUVs, but I can't see them making any effort to spend the money wisely.

I don't see how any of you can say that owning an SUV or whatever is a right? It was a privelage for it to be available to you to buy in the first place. Sometimes, privelages are taken away if it causes harm to others. So the "I have a right to own an SUV" is not a fair argument.

Billions of people now, in the future and for the rest of time, HAVE THE RIGHT to breathe clean fresh air. If your crappy ass car is making it so this is not possible, why don't you get off your high horse, stop being so selfish and help out with the betterment of our planet?

I think that SUV owners should be allowed to trade their vehicles in for more fuel efficient vehicles, at a very good price. That is a fair trade off if you ask me.

Jay, you seem to think that ANY type of change is for the worse, but did you stop to think that the constant changes of our o-zone, and our environment is changing in a massively destructive way because of our poor decisions as humans? Our decisions are the only thing we can change indefinitely, and it's about damn time that we start making new ones that are beneficial to the ONLY thing we all have, and that sir, is our planet, (which by the way, is in terrible shape).

Take some environmental studies classes, and you will get a serious wake up call. If we continue in the manner we are going at for the moment, we will all incur the wrath of nature retaliating against us.

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Originally posted by Theresa I don't see how any of you can say that owning an SUV or whatever is a right? It was a privelage for it to be available to you to buy in the first place.

Everything to you is a privilege. A privilege granted by who? By the government?

The way society is supposed to operate is to give freedom to all and THEN restrict the behaviours that are harmful or violate the rights of other individuals.

You seem to view society as an all-controlling government that restricts everything and then opens up little nooks for people. That's called communism.

Incidentally, there isn't *ANY* reliable evidence to support your assertion that our planet/environment is "in terrible shape", which you so casually mention as if it's somehow common knowledge. Yes, there are measurables like greenhouse emissions and temperature gradients, but since we really only started looking at those things in the 50s, we have no way of knowing whether the changes are actually caused by us or are simply cyclical natural phenomena. We need MUCH more time to determine that.

Geesh... I know that there are *some* well-spoken Liberals out there, but most of them just seem to be power-hungry kooks wanting to impose their beliefs on the rest of the world without having to justify them.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Everything to you is a privilege. A privilege granted by who? By the government? The way society is supposed to operate is to give freedom to all and THEN restrict the behaviours that are harmful or violate the rights of other individuals. You seem to view society as an all-controlling government that restricts everything and then opens up little nooks for people. That's called communism. Incidentally, there isn't *ANY* reliable evidence to support your assertion that our planet/environment is "in terrible shape", which you so casually mention as if it's somehow common knowledge. Yes, there are measurables like greenhouse emissions and temperature gradients, but since we really only started looking at those things in the 50s, we have no way of knowing whether the changes are actually caused by us or are simply cyclical natural phenomena. We need MUCH more time to determine that. Geesh... I know that there are *some* well-spoken Liberals out there, but most of them just seem to be power-hungry kooks wanting to impose their beliefs on the rest of the world without having to justify them.

OK then, justify how owning an SUV is a right? Because if you give me a good reason why I have the right to have one, I want mine now.

I really think you need to look into perspective what is a right, and what is a privelage/bonus/luxury. To me, a right is a basic NEED, like: air, food, water, safety, love, shelter. You know, those things you cannot live without.

As for how the world is in rough shape, it is common knowledge to me after taking so many classes to study up on it. Perhaps they were feeding me biased made up garbage, but from what I was learning, things are not in the greatest of shape. If you didn't know, Canada has the most fresh water resources on the planet, and slowly we are using all of this up, and successfully polluting the crap out of it too. We also clear cut billions of trees, a resource we need to clean the air, we emit gasses and other garbage into the air that has PROVEN to deteriorate our o-zone, which in turn has been causing global warming, and plenty of other weird natural phenomenons.

We have caused many a species to be extinct, we have made it so people are easily getting ill from the shit that we offer to them. We are our own destruction, and something needs to be done to stop us from ruining the chance for people after us to HAVE THE RIGHT to live comfortably, without gas masks, without contaminated water, without the constant fear of a flood from the ice caps melting, or an ice age. The opportunity to know what trees are, and what a jungle or a forest is. These are rights. Not for people to drive a stupid freaking vehicle around that is nothing but a hinderance to our planet.

Try doing some searches on it, and you will see some things that are shocking; almost scary.

Sometimes, the logic you people have really confuses me.

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Originally posted by Theresa OK then, justify how owning an SUV is a right? Because if you give me a good reason why I have the right to have one, I want mine now. I really think you need to look into perspective what is a right, and what is a privelage/bonus/luxury. To me, a right is a basic NEED, like: air, food, water, safety, love, shelter. You know, those things you cannot live without.

So in your view, the only thing people have a right to are the bare necessities of life.

Do you not realize how preposterous that sounds? We also have the right to freedom. The right to think, be, and do what we want as long as it doesn't harm other people or violate their rights. Other PEOPLE - not the ENVIRONMENT. The environment doesn't have some kind of intrinsic value independent of its usefulness to us. The environment doesn't even exist independently of what we define it to be.

And we have the right to own private property. That means that SUVs are the property of whoever made them or currently owns them. Rights are not guarantees, so don't start with this "I want mine now" bullcrap - you have the right to own one but you still have to pay for it, because if you don't, it's the private property of someone else.

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As for how the world is in rough shape, it is common knowledge to me after taking so many classes to study up on it. Perhaps they were feeding me biased made up garbage, but from what I was learning, things are not in the greatest of shape. If you didn't know, Canada has the most fresh water resources on the planet, and slowly we are using all of this up, and successfully polluting the crap out of it too. We also clear cut billions of trees, a resource we need to clean the air, we emit gasses and other garbage into the air that has PROVEN to deteriorate our o-zone, which in turn has been causing global warming, and plenty of other weird natural phenomenons. We have caused many a species to be extinct, we have made it so people are easily getting ill from the shit that we offer to them. We are our own destruction, and something needs to be done to stop us from ruining the chance for people after us to HAVE THE RIGHT to live comfortably, without gas masks, without contaminated water, without the constant fear of a flood from the ice caps melting, or an ice age. The opportunity to know what trees are, and what a jungle or a forest is. These are rights. Not for people to drive a stupid freaking vehicle around that is nothing but a hinderance to our planet.

I think the fact that you refer to it as "o-zone" is a pretty good indication of how "educated" you are on the subject, so let's not get all high-and-mighty here.

I'll make this simple:

Do you have ANY proof whatsoever that any of these things are going to kill us, melt the ice caps and flood the earth, lead us into an ice age, contaminate all our water, or require us to wear gas masks 24/7?

We have technology. We have climate control, air purification, water purification. In fact, we have renewable energy sources that we haven't even begun to explore yet - not because of the "fossil fuel conspiracy" or any of that bullshit, but because of government regulations on business and technology.

The earth is billions of years old, and "environmental science" has been around for less than 50. Do you honestly think that the people who write these textbooks have ANY clue that these things will happen? These "threats" are nothing but scare tactics - completely made-up junk science in order to impose their beliefs on someone else. They're no better than predictions of the Second Coming or the Rapture.

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Try doing some searches on it, and you will see some things that are shocking; almost scary.

Yes, things written by people who don't have a clue. Why should I let those scare me? You shouldn't believe everything you hear or read. I can write scary end-of-the-world stories too, you know. And I'm sure I could come up with several pages of logic and rhetoric that careless readers would not bother to question.

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Sometimes, the logic you people have really confuses me.

That's because logic in general seems to be a foreign concept to you.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Americans are idiots for many reasons, but being ignorant of the real world isn't one of them. THAT honour falls to the Canadians, and comments like the one you just posted are the proof.

sed -e 's/ignorant/arrogant/g'

Maybe arrogant is a better word for you? A case can be made for both, and can be seen in their pure and utter contempt towards that which is un-American.

Canadians are ignorant? Maybe so; granted it's subjective and left up to individual interpretation based on unique perspectives and stances.

However at least we have the galls to ratify the Kyoto accord despite the shorter term economic costs. And we know that anything that infringes on the pocketbooks of the rich, and the rights of the few is no good!

I ask you, what would Jesus drive? The irony being that most of my negative connotations towards Americans are only based on those who live in Jesus Land. (click for map)

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