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-- Pay up! Tolls may be coming to downtown streets
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Re: Re: Pay up! Tolls may be coming to downtown streets

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Originally posted by Your Mother This is the case in central London and it hasn't discouraged people from going there. Its meant to encourage public transit. -Your Mother

The difference is that in London transit is a viable option. Not so here unless you are lucky enough to live close to and are going somewhere near one of the 4 major arteries. Even then the times and schedules are fucked.

If i lived in London id have no need for a car.

I have experienced some of the largest subway systems in the world, Tokyo and London subway, and Osaka subway and I love them. There is so many lines that it is actually a viable option not to have a car. Also Tokyo is such a dense city that it is actually a profitable metro system. Also it is so automated, i take it a lot so i buy a card and all i do is swipe it over the entrance gate and it opens.

While Toronto seem is pathetic (sp?) for a city of this size. When I visit toronto taking the train is a pain as it does not cover even the downtown area that well.

They need to expand the lines within the city core for it to be a viable option.

hopefully on day toronto can have a good metro system.

Problem:

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The problem is that the federal and provincial governments give virtually no money to support the TTC.

Solution:

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH How about the Liberals take that 9.1 billion that they have stashed in foundations and put it to good use and give it all to Toronto?

EDIT: this above might be one part of the solution. the other part would be hiring people that will make sure no more unnecessary spending would be introduced and no more high-paying positions that contribute nothing to the solution for the problems are being created either. Otherwise, the presidents of these companies like TTC will just accept more money and divide it amongst themselves, or create some new jobs/foundations to funnel that money thru.

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Originally posted by TDG Someone in my family (can't remember who right now, I've been drinkin' again), was in dallas last year. apparently they don't have ANY public transit in that city. Now I don't recall what traffic congestion is like in that city, but if there's no transit, they must've invested alot in maintaining the roads. Now, I look at Toronto, and I think to myself, Wow. Sometimes I think they simply don't care at all about infrastructure. The roads are decaying, the streetcars are useless, the subway's pathetic. The population is growing, downtown is getting more and more dense thanks to Condo development. The city's population is growing up AND out at the same time, and transit isn't showing any signs of even TRYING to keep up. Tolls in the core will only make things worse for everyone. Those who rely on cars for whatever reason will be more screwed, and the subways and streetcars will be more crowded. I've seen this city from the POV of the transit user, the downtown driver, and the out-of-towner. Unless they can come up with an ass-load of money (like higher property taxes on luxury condos or some other way to chisle the rich folk), it's only a matter of time before the city collapses under it's own weight. Yaaaaaaay rant!

I pretty much agree with that... and anyone driving in downtown on any of the streets with streetcar lines (which is like 80% of major streets south of Bloor) will notice how much of a traffic hog those goddamn streetcars are! They don't just move slow, and they don't just block their own lane, they block the right-most lane as well (since you can't pass them when the door is open, even if the light is green). They should get the buses running instead of streetcars, as I think that would clear up a lot of congestion downtown.

As for the road tolls in downtown idea, I say BRING IT ON, bitches. I already have a way of legaly avoiding the tolls on 407, so if they introduce the same system (cameras, etc), that would be awesome.

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Originally posted by k la We have an incredible transit system and we should be using it.

you're being sarcastic with this comment right? if not, then yeah, i wont even go there.

also, i think before they introduce tolls they should teach the majority of people in this city how to drive.

steve.

also k la, sorry to say it but you should stop posting in this thread...you're making a fool out of yourself.

go to any real city (europe) and ride the public transit and then tell me how good it is in this city.

paris, london, istanbul, berlin, vienna, etc etc etc

steve.

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Originally posted by k la This is a GREAT idea. We have an incredible transit system and we should be using it. Why not have some kind of tolls, and use that money to further fund our transit system??? As for incentive for hybreds, another great idea. In the book "ecology of commerce" it suggests of paying insurance at the gas pumps, so it will be included in the tax of gas. This way EVERYONE has to pay insurance, and then those will fuel effiecent cars get cheaper insurance, which will lead to less S.U.V.s. And as big plus no one will be making fun of me and my echo

No offence but uhm... the transit system is pretty crappy compared to any transit system in Europe (not to mention beyond expensive!!!)

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Originally posted by loca No offence but uhm... the transit system is pretty crappy compared to any transit system in Europe (not to mention beyond expensive!!!)

Thats another problem.

For me to take public transit that takes forever and doesnt fit into my shcedule it would cost $18-$20 a day cash fare by the time i get downtown. Thats $6.50 each way on the GO and $2.50 each way on the TTC.

Oh yeah, they just raised the fare on the TTC by 25 cents starting in March. Pay more for less! Thats the Miller/McGuinty way!

Great coloumn about this very topic! K la, take notes!

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February 4, 2005 Why most of us don't take the 'better way' By JOHN DOWNING Toronto muddles through rush-hour hell, an awful Catch-22 where the gridlock hasn't solidified so that more drivers are forced to transit, and transit isn't making enough so it can provide a speedier, efficient service that will wean motorists from their cars. So most of us drive. Even building a baby extension of Front Street is screwed up. If a city can't build even such a puny bit without a delay of two decades and an explosion of costs, then we should be thankful the traffic isn't worse. The political reality is that most of the road and transit workhorses that millions use daily would never exist if they had been proposed to this council. Can you imagine the Gardiner and Don Valley expressways being approved? Or Yonge St. being ripped up for a subway, and being paid for out of fares? Improvements to "super roads" within the city, such as the 427 and 401, only happen because the roads already exist, and the Legislature, populated by MPPs who couldn't exist without cars, controls them. Ironically, the exception, the cancellation of the Spadina expressway by Bill Davis, to prove he was decisive and also a green Tory, came despite approval of the city's main council. Then councillors lost their nerve. Toronto never did get its Northwest Passage (remember when our history was filled with explorers trying to find one?) and movement in the city's northwest is still screwed up. Helpful measures were perverted or killed. An expressway that would have fed Hwy. 400 south was downsized into Black Creek Drive, and a major western Eglinton transit line got skewered, done in by Mel Lastman's subway, the Sheppard mistake. The year is young but history keeps repeating. Consider the Front St. extension, which started life around $100 million and then, because pols jammed even bike lanes into it, grew to $255 million. There must be a plot to make it too expensive for council's tastes. After all, a year ago it was extended three blocks and went up $10 million in just four days without a public meeting. So anti-car councillors say that's too much for new ramps to the hated Gardiner. I thought the sense in saving the Gardiner -- one of the world champs in vehicle movements -- had become obvious, but planners and contractors hungry for work are persistent. The latest scheme is to remove some ramps, making it easier to pass underneath but not to use. Strange! Don't demolish the expressway but geld it. But then logic flies like a wounded bird for Gardiner haters because they can't overcome two truths -- surface roads created to carry its traffic would be much broader than the Gardiner, plus the Gardiner hasn't been the major obstacle to lake views for years. Expressway endangered But foes keep chipping away. The Gardiner fed to a Scarborough expressway, which was killed after the Spadina, and the old link has been demolished, so just watch them try to do that all the way east to Yonge. The billion-dollar Sheppard goof burns again in my memory because of the TTC's latest improvement plan, switching from subways to buses and streetcars in their own lanes in 16 suburban areas. Ironically, all of that would cost less than that dumb subway line. Busways may be our salvation, that is, if it means new buses in a protected lane. But already the sales drums have started for light rapid transit lines, even up in York Region, fancy bigger streetcars costing $25 million/km. And York University is being offered a busway from the end of Spadina, for maybe $30 million, but is holding out for a $1.5-billion subway. When you consider history, lobbies should take what they can get. Improved bus service and a few road links may not sound impressive but are bargains by comparison to the dreaming. At least some traffic would still be moving while academics and silly pols sniff at savings and pray for expensive gadgetry.

dude whats you day job?!? hehehe you have so much time on your hands or something

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Originally posted by malek dude whats you day job?!? hehehe you have so much time on your hands or something

i just sit back and let the money roll in..

ahahah

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Originally posted by Jayx1 i just sit back and let the money roll in.. ahahah

hahaha not bad, PM me your secret

i have nothing to do anyways, i'm on strike http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=243168 ... hahahaha

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Originally posted by Jayx1 id say more like average

compared to London, NY, etc...sure...but compared to anywhere else in this country, it's quite good. Service is on time, buses and subways are relatively clean, safe, etc.

There's tons of room for improvement, no doubt...but to call it "average"...no way. Go *anywhere* else in Canada, come back to Toronto, and tell me the TTC services provided are "average"

I agree that tolls are a sad band-aid solution and increased transit funding and development is *clearly* the way the go.

the question remains...who's going to pay for it? Options:

- The various levels of gov't - and they can't just allocate the hundreds of millions it will take to build subways in Toronto...remember, the rest of the country hates us already, lol. Besides, those are 10+ year projects, *at least*, and therefore don't address today's issues.
- The taxpayers - the Liberals, at any level, will be ripped by all of you Liberal haters if they jack taxes to pay for TTC improvments.
- Private sector involvement - I've been suggesting this for a while, most recently in the thread with the TTC "pipe dream" map that I posted not too long ago. But I see that some people (yourself included) were upset at Rogers getting naming rights to the dome...how would you feel about a slew of corporate involvement with TTC stations, subway cars, etc? I'm all for it...

Tolls downtown are not the answer...I definitely agree there...all it does is tax the middle and lower class while the wealthy who can afford it will continue to do so. Most car owners aren't poor anyway...will tolls *really* reduce traffic by *that* much? I don't think so.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Thats another problem. For me to take public transit that takes forever and doesnt fit into my shcedule it would cost $18-$20 a day cash fare by the time i get downtown. Thats $6.50 each way on the GO and $2.50 each way on the TTC. Oh yeah, they just raised the fare on the TTC by 25 cents starting in March. Pay more for less! Thats the Miller/McGuinty way!

Wtf! I'm already paying on average about $9 a day for bus only. That's another thing i don't like. Why are the different bus companies privatised?! It's annoying to have to pay 2.25 to get on YRT and then another 2.25 to get on the TTC

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Originally posted by loca Wtf! I'm already paying on average about $9 a day for bus only. That's another thing i don't like. Why are the different bus companies privatised?! It's annoying to have to pay 2.25 to get on YRT and then another 2.25 to get on the TTC

get a gta pass if u travel often on the yrt and ttc

comes out cheaper

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Originally posted by smuncky get a gta pass if u travel often on the yrt and ttc comes out cheaper

Yah i'm looking into that... it's $40/wk though... gah. To think i used to complain about the puny 14 Euros i had to pay for a week bus/tram/subway pass.

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Originally posted by MarkT There's tons of room for improvement, no doubt...but to call it "average"...no way. Go *anywhere* else in Canada, come back to Toronto, and tell me the TTC services provided are "average"

Go anywhere else in the country and show me a city where so many people need to get around all at once. I found vancouver to be quite efficient with the Skytrain and bus services. Still could use improvement but the city is not nearly as big or as busy as Toronto.
My problem is with the lack of service. Namely busses dont go where you want them to when you want them to. If you happen to be going somewhere at the time they are scheduled then you are right, the service is not bad.

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the question remains...who's going to pay for it? Options: - The various levels of gov't - and they can't just allocate the hundreds of millions it will take to build subways in Toronto...remember, the rest of the country hates us already, lol. Besides, those are 10+ year projects, *at least*, and therefore don't address today's issues.

Who gives a shit. This is why we need a government with balls who will put the money where its needed

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- The taxpayers - the Liberals, at any level, will be ripped by all of you Liberal haters if they jack taxes to pay for TTC improvments.

the feds have a $9 billion surplus. No need to raise any taxes at all!

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- Private sector involvement - I've been suggesting this for a while, most recently in the thread with the TTC "pipe dream" map that I posted not too long ago. But I see that some people (yourself included) were upset at Rogers getting naming rights to the dome...how would you feel about a slew of corporate involvement with TTC stations, subway cars, etc? I'm all for it...

privitized lines does not mean you have to call it the bell route and the trojan station. This is not how privatization works elsewhere. But yes, i think non unionized private lines are the way to go.

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[Tolls downtown are not the answer...I definitely agree there...all it does is tax the middle and lower class while the wealthy who can afford it will continue to do so. Most car owners aren't poor anyway...will tolls *really* reduce traffic by *that* much? I don't think so.

Well at least we agree here

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Originally posted by loca Yah i'm looking into that... it's $40/wk though... gah. To think i used to complain about the puny 14 Euros i had to pay for a week bus/tram/subway pass.

They are raising all Go train fares by 15 cents in march now as well.

I think i will stick to driving thanks

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Originally posted by loca Yah i'm looking into that... it's $40/wk though... gah. To think i used to complain about the puny 14 Euros i had to pay for a week bus/tram/subway pass.

well if u spend 9/day, and if u travel 5 days out of the week, then i wouldnt even hesitate

its still cheaper than the ttc and yrt monthly pass combined

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the feds have a $9 billion surplus. No need to raise any taxes at all!

That's the official Lieberal figure. The actual surplus is billions more than that.


In addition, it doesn't include the EI surplus.

Nor does it include the hidden foundation money (another ~$9 billion?).



Federal taxes are way too high AND they're not spending enough on things we need.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 They are raising all Go train fares by 15 cents in march now as well. I think i will stick to driving thanks

Sadly, much like gasoline, those who rely on GO won't care, because 90% of the riders in the rush have common destinations: Downtown in the morning, Home at night.

What a life that must be. Sit on the train for 45 minutes, walk into a freakishly large office tower, sit for 8 hours, board a train, sit for ANOTHER 45 minutes, go home.

YAY! I wanna be a office worker!

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf That's the official Lieberal figure. The actual surplus is billions more than that. In addition, it doesn't include the EI surplus. Nor does it include the hidden foundation money (another ~$9 billion?). Federal taxes are way too high AND they're not spending enough on things we need.

dude just to clarify something, the EI surplus is a myth. because at the end of every year the surplus is added to the federal surpluses and gets spent... so there's actually no cumulative surplus like everyone thinks (the 40+ billions people are talking about).

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