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-- Short sighted Pit Bull ban about to pass
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Originally posted by crazedcanuck So why not sweeping legislation to cover all dog owners? Focusing on Pitbulls, which is simply a general term cover a ton of similar looking breeds, is pure folley, and isn't going to solve anything. I've had 3 attacks involving members of my family. The dog that attacked my little sister was a cocker spaniel, and the two dogs that attacked my dad years ago were golden retrievers. The one that attacked my sister ripped her lips right off her face. luckily she was 6 and surgery reattached them without any noticeable scarring today. These two breeds are hunting breeds, and as domesticated as they are, are just as inclined to violence as any other breed, if not moreso. Don't pick on one segment of the population, demand responsibility from all dog owners. It's the only way to change the culture of irresponsibility regarding dog ownership. Rather than legislate leash and muzzle laws for ALL dogs in large population centres, they go for the quick fix.

Funny how you guys fight like children back and forth, yet avoid making any real points.

Why isn't something that attacks the root of the problem, like the points suggested in my above post, being discussed by you guys?

Because it's the rational and best thing to do. Covering a breed here or there isn't pro-active, it's reactionary. People want laws that will help avoid future attacks, regardless of the breed. Bylaws that punish people after the fact do nothing to save those who may be attacked by ANY dog in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by crazedcanuck Funny how you guys fight like children back and forth, yet avoid making any real points. Why isn't something that attacks the root of the problem, like the points suggested in my above post, being discussed by you guys? Because it's the rational and best thing to do. Covering a breed here or there isn't pro-active, it's reactionary. People want laws that will help avoid future attacks, regardless of the breed. Bylaws that punish people after the fact do nothing to save those who may be attacked by ANY dog in the future.

I agree....this "reactionary" approach is what I dissagree with...If there wasn't a pitbull ban than I can see one jumping over a fence & attacking a person for instance...While that pitbull has its jaws gnawing on some part of your body, you walk over & knock on the door waiting for the owner to come to the door...IF he/she comes to the door then do you kindly ask them to remove their dog off your person??? well its too late...you've bled to death....OR if you survive then you have to deal with the scars....THATS what you have to deal with AFTER the fact...So if you REMOVE the danger then there is no risk AT ALL...

Yes other dogs bite but NOT ( I think) as ferocious as pitbulls.Maybe Rhotty's & Bull mastifs act the same but, unfortunatly, they aren't banned either.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 So you are telling me that this doesnt hold true with golden retrievers? My aunt's dog Lad would probably have to be shot multiple times as well.

Well Julian Fantino had a news conference several weeks back & I don't think he mentioned that street gangs/thugs are using Golden Retrievers as weapons and that retrievers aren't affected by pepper spray OR that won't die when shot.And I would think that, being the Chief of Police, he would probably have statistics available to him, if there was a rash of attacking retrievers AND that he would have added them to the list.......RIGHT???

Pitbulls jumping over fences just to attack you... man, and you were telling others not to go to extremes? Stop being such a hypocrit.

I don't know if you were aware of this but Pitbulls are not the most agile of dogs

quote:

Originally posted by loca Pitbulls jumping over fences just to attack you... man, and you were telling others not to go to extremes? Stop being such a hypocrit. I don't know if you were aware of this but Pitbulls are not the most agile of dogs

Ok then....what if they charge through a screen door...that if they already have dug a hole under their yard...WHATEVER...I'm using POSSIBLE examples


hypocrit (actually spelt hipocrite)? oh....ok

quote:

Originally posted by RobbyG. Ok then....what if they charge through a screen door...that if they already have dug a hole under their yard...WHATEVER...I'm using POSSIBLE examples , hypocrit (actually spelt hipocrite)? oh....ok

Boy don't correct me on my spelling when you get it completely wrong too okay? It's actually spelt hypocrite (source), so please

Either ways the point you used earlier was just as bad as the "well chihuahuas bite too, you gonna ban them?" point. So, yes, hypocrite.
And i'll thank you not to use caps, i can see perfectly well without them
So since we're using possible examples here, how about i use one on you? What if (you never know right? possible examples!) a labrador/mutt/shepherd/doberman/rottweiler dug a hole under its yard and/or charged through a screen door at you, and viciously attacked you!
Well... those breeds of dogs should be banned too right? Crazed Cannuck and i have already proven that goldens attack, but i suppose now you'll want proof all the others do too

quote:

Originally posted by loca Boy don't correct me on my spelling when you get it completely wrong too okay? It's actually spelt hypocrite (source), so please

oops

quote:

Originally posted by loca Boy don't correct me on my spelling when you get it completely wrong too okay? It's actually spelt hypocrite (source), so please Either ways the point you used earlier was just as bad as the "well chihuahuas bite too, you gonna ban them?" point. So, yes, hypocrite. And i'll thank you not to use caps, i can see perfectly well without them So since we're using possible examples here, how about i use one on you? What if (you never know right? possible examples!) a labrador/mutt/shepherd/doberman/rottweiler dug a hole under its yard and/or charged through a screen door at you, and viciously attacked you! Well... those breeds of dogs should be banned too right? Crazed Cannuck and i have already proven that goldens attack, but i suppose now you'll want proof all the others do too

Look.....all kidding aside....Pit Bulls, once they bite & get a hold of you, will not let go...As Mark T wrote, its "hard wired" into their brains & part of the breed's "make-up" even if they have been raised properly...Julian Fantino says: "Toronto police Chief Julian Fantino told the committee he supports the ban because his officers are regularly confronted by pit bulls that must be shot.

"And even at that, there's multiple shots that have to be fired," Fantino said. "In reality, they have been trained to attack and are being actively used as weapons."
source


Here Fantino is testifying at a Legislative committee another source


Now do u doubt the sincerity of Julian Fantino with his concern for this particular breed?


Respectfully yours

RobbyG.

quote:

Originally posted by RobbyG. Look.....all kidding aside....Pit Bulls, once they bite & get a hold of you, will not let go...As Mark T wrote, its "hard wired" into their brains & part of the breed's "make-up" even if they have been raised properly...Julian Fantino says: "Toronto police Chief Julian Fantino told the committee he supports the ban because his officers are regularly confronted by pit bulls that must be shot. "And even at that, there's multiple shots that have to be fired," Fantino said. "In reality, they have been trained to attack and are being actively used as weapons." source Here Fantino is testifying at a Legislative committee another source Now do u doubt the sincerity of Julian Fantino with his concern for this particular breed? Respectfully yours RobbyG.

I never disagreed that the breed in itself, when trained to attack (as pointed out by Mr Fantino), is extremely dangerous. Of that i have no doubt. It is true that pitbulls for some reason were blessed (or cursed) with a capability to lock their jaws when attacking.

What i am saying is that i believe it is possible to allow these dogs to coexist in communities if they are trained properly. Any dog that is trained to be an attack dog is dangerous, but again, this is because of owners. The dogs themselves should not be blamed for poor training.

I'm not much of a pitbull fan myself having been confronted by one on the streets of Plymouth one night where the dog was left roaming alone, with no muzzle and no owner in sight. Believe me, i was scared! But i do think that if properly contained - muzzle when outside of the house or around people who are not the owners - they would be fine. I have yet to see a dog being able to bite off it's own muzzle.

I just don't think banning the breed altogether is the right solution.

quote:

Originally posted by loca I never disagreed that the breed in itself, when trained to attack (as pointed out by Mr Fantino), is extremely dangerous. Of that i have no doubt. It is true that pitbulls for some reason were blessed (or cursed) with a capability to lock their jaws when attacking. What i am saying is that i believe it is possible to allow these dogs to coexist in communities if they are trained properly. Any dog that is trained to be an attack dog is dangerous, but again, this is because of owners. The dogs themselves should not be blamed for poor training. I'm not much of a pitbull fan myself having been confronted by one on the streets of Plymouth one night where the dog was left roaming alone, with no muzzle and no owner in sight. Believe me, i was scared! But i do think that if properly contained - muzzle when outside of the house or around people who are not the owners - they would be fine. I have yet to see a dog being able to bite off it's own muzzle. I just don't think banning the breed altogether is the right solution.

Well I think you have the most sensible post here...hopefully after all is said & done that it saves one person from the trauma of a dog attack or bite....we'll have to wait & see

If they ban pitbulls, those who would want to train dogs to attack will just focus on another breed.

and what other breeds will have the same inability to halt it's own attackue to the way it's brain functions and will require multiple gunshot wounds to be subdued?

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT and what other breeds will have the same inability to halt it's own attackue to the way it's brain functions and will require multiple gunshot wounds to be subdued?

The jaw issue may be pit-bull centric (although I'm sure other breeds are capable), however the killer instinct is hardly their domain alone.

Many an enraged dog, regardless of breed, wouldn't give-up the attack.

Basically, you have to ask yourself if banning 1 breed is going to save any lives. It isn't. It is only going to punish irresponsible owners of that 1 breed.

Due to population growth, especially in Urban centres like large populations, the comfort space for people, let alone animals, has disapeared. What we need is sweeping legislation and bylaws that will provide a buffer zone between all dogs, and people. The only ones who can actively enforce and sort of buffer are dog owners, not bylaw officers.

The culture needs to change, and a band-aid solution like a ban isn't going to solve anything.

quote:

Originally posted by RobbyG. Fantino mentioned that Pitt Bulls are used as weapons by thugs.The problem is that those dogs aren't affected by Pepper spray & need a whole clip from a cops gun to kill those dogs...I dunno about a Rhotty or a Bull Mastif if those breeds can "take" that... I'm not a dog lover & after getting bit twice as a kid (once in the face)...if "removing" a breed that can rip my face to pieces & NOT die from several gun shots, then BAN away

i AGREE WITH YOUR COMMENT 100000%...i love dogs,but i hate pit bulls.

quote:

Originally posted by RobbyG. Fantino mentioned that Pitt Bulls are used as weapons by thugs.The problem is that those dogs aren't affected by Pepper spray & need a whole clip from a cops gun to kill those dogs...I dunno about a Rhotty or a Bull Mastif if those breeds can "take" that... I'm not a dog lover & after getting bit twice as a kid (once in the face)...if "removing" a breed that can rip my face to pieces & NOT die from several gun shots, then BAN away

i AGREE WITH YOUR COMMENT 100000%...i love dogs,but i hate pit bulls.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

WOW....you posted it twice....I'm honored


I have a question to dog owners here about the muzzle guards...Can they stay on securily? Will an adult dog, who's never worn one all its life, be comfortable with one on? Are there different types/styles?


Just wondering

It's awe-inspiring how much debate this issue has sparked. There's nothing to debate, people - this "ban" is utter nonsense. Not only does it fail to even address the real problem let alone solve it, but from a legal perspective it's completely unenforceable and will no doubt end up within a few years as another quirky archaic law that provides a constant nuisance to law-abiding citizens while doing nothing to deter the criminally negligent. (Sort of like the majority of our traffic laws).


Make no mistake, this is Nimby territory; a few old cranks imposing their will on the majority. Just another proof positive sign that democracy has kicked the bucket here.

you know...while I've been operating under the assumption that the ban is better than nothing...but it really does seem almost pointless, except that if they intentionally loosely enforce it, at least there's a bylaw on the books with which to prosecute/fine/whatever those particularly bad offenders.

selection application of the law really isn't a good idea though.

so what's the solution other than increasing owner punishment...the idea is that the dangerous type of "pit bulls" need to be more tightly controlled...so how?

maybe treat it like driving

ie courses, education and regulation.

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