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- Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont.
-- Ontarians are sheep
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quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker The Bombardier deal is a great example of this.

when the old PC's chose Montreal and Bombardier in the infamous 1986 CF-18 deal, the West responded with Reform, and the PC's were decimated

now that the Lieberals have done almost the same thing to Ontario, how will Ontario respond? Will they be punished at all? How many Torontonians even know what happened in this case???

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker The Bombardier deal is a great example of this.

and that 1B$ fund for the auto industry is another great example.

quote:

Originally posted by malek and that 1B$ fund for the auto industry is another great example.

which the Ontario government pays a big chunk of (half I think)...

...but yeah, the CPC (rightly) wants to eliminate corporate welfare

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf when the old PC's chose Montreal and Bombardier in the infamous 1986 CF-18 deal, the West responded with Reform, and the PC's were decimated now that the Lieberals have done almost the same thing to Ontario, how will Ontario respond? Will they be punished at all? How many Torontonians even know what happened in this case???

the PC chose Bombardier because its ownership was Canadian, the firm based in Winnipeg wasn't.

It makes sense to favor Canadian firms when possible in defense matters.

But hey, hicks in the west don't get it.

If you think that the CPC would not have done the same thing for Bombardier you're plain wrong or they would be super crazy. (actually they promised to keep Bombardier's deal intact if they're elected).

Every major plane builder in the world have recieved massive public investments for RnD.

Just think about Airbus, Boeing and Embraer.

Why would we let down our only plane builder?

Those jobs created aren't minimum wage either, its high tech, its well paid and its a big plus for the country!

quote:

Originally posted by malek the PC chose Bombardier because its ownership was Canadian, the firm based in Winnipeg wasn't.

nonsense....Mulroney chose Bombarider to get votes in Quebec. The Bombardier bid was HIGHER... yet it still won!

quote:

It makes sense to favor Canadian firms when possible in defense matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Aerospace

hardly a foreign firm... the other countries involved in the company are also part of NATO, so we share miiltary systems anyway!

quote:

But hey, hicks in the west don't get it.

probably lost in translation.... we don't speak Ribbit 'round here

quote:

Originally posted by malek If you think that the CPC would not have done the same thing for Bombardier you're plain wrong or they would be super crazy. (actually they promised to keep Bombardier's deal intact if they're elected). Every major plane builder in the world have recieved massive public investments for RnD. Just think about Airbus, Boeing and Embraer. Why would we let down our only plane builder? Those jobs created aren't minimum wage either, its high tech, its well paid and its a big plus for the country!

I would empathize, except that Bombardier has always HEAVILY supported the Lieberals with donations (in the millions).... and that party is flushing this country down the toilet.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf I would empathize, except that Bombardier has always HEAVILY supported the Lieberals with donations (in the millions).... and that party is flushing this country down the toilet.

nonesense... you're telling me that Bombardier didn't support the CPC after getting those contracts???

did you just shoot yourself in the foot?

we both know that firms support whichever party is in power, no matter who it is.

Bristol is British owned, check wikipedia

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf we don't speak Ribbit 'round here

Reminds me of that Swampthing tune from the mid 1990s.

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Originally posted by malek nonesense... you're telling me that Bombardier didn't support the CPC after getting those contracts??? did you just shoot yourself in the foot?

I don't deny that they gave money to the old PC Party...but that's my point - the PC Party was wiped out (in part to losing the West)

also, the amount given to the old PC Party pales in comparison to the amount given to the Lieberals

the CPC never received any money from Bombardier

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we both know that firms support whichever party is in power, no matter who it is.

well election financing laws have changed radically since then.. limits on corporate donations, etc.

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Bristol is British owned, check wikipedia

...this is British North America

anyway, it's no longer British-owned... and even when it was, it seems to have been an independant division

and like I said, all NATO coutries share military systems with each other... ironically, all except France

this is obviously going nowhere.

but what the heck:

of course Bombardier haven't given anything to the CPC, it was just formed, its young and have never taken power yet. They'll give its share when they'll win the elections.


So let me get this right, who's fault is it that the laws have been changed about coporate donations. the CPC or Bombardier?


hahah British NA my ass, you're just trying to evade the real point, Bombardier won it because its Canadian owned (those votes were already won in Quebec).

Maybe France has a good reason not to share its information, who knows, who cares ??

quote:

Originally posted by malek Bombardier won it because its Canadian owned

No.

Bombardier won becuase the Liberals are trying to win support in Quebec after stealing Quebecer's taxes and using them to prop up the Quebec Liberal party.

Ontario had contracters who were cheaper and just as able to do the work - but Ontario polled higher in support of the Liberal Party prior to the decision - so Mr. Martin and his Cabinet decied to support the Quebec bid with loan guarantees and financing to influence (or "buy") votes within Quebec.

quote:

Originally posted by malek of course Bombardier haven't given anything to the CPC, it was just formed, its young and have never taken power yet. They'll give its share when they'll win the elections.

they can't legally get donations from Bombardier at the national party level... corporate donations are still allowed at the constituancy level... I think there's a $1,000 cap

quote:

So let me get this right, who's fault is it that the laws have been changed about coporate donations. the CPC or Bombardier?

Actually it was Chretien, for the sole reason of sticking it to Martin (who got more than $10 million in corporate donations in 2003).

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hahah British NA my ass, you're just trying to evade the real point, Bombardier won it because its Canadian owned (those votes were already won in Quebec).

the work would have been done in Winnipeg

quote:

Maybe France has a good reason not to share its information, who knows, who cares ??

quote:

In February 1966, France withdrew from the common NATO military command, but remained within the organization. De Gaulle, haunted by the memories of 1940, wanted France to remain the master of the decisions affecting it, unlike in the 1930s, when France had to follow in step with the British ally. those Anglo pigs, fighting to save France.. how dare they! Again, though, the move was seen as further evidence of de Gaulle's hypocrisy; critics charged he was content for France to be protected by NATO, while publicly snubbing the alliance. typical French

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker No. Bombardier won becuase the Liberals are trying to win support in Quebec after stealing Quebecer's taxes and using them to prop up the Quebec Liberal party. Ontario had contracters who were cheaper and just as able to do the work - but Ontario polled higher in support of the Liberal Party prior to the decision - so Mr. Martin and his Cabinet decied to support the Quebec bid with loan guarantees and financing to influence (or "buy") votes within Quebec.

you're mixing things up.

We're talking about the 1987 CF18 contracts.

Montreal won over Toronto because Montreal's employees gave back 120M$ worth of benefits, which the Toronto employees voted against.

Thats the main reason why Montreal was chosen, its Bombardier who said it.

quote:

Originally posted by malek We're talking about the 1987 CF18 contracts.

Actually no - YOU ARE MIXING THINGS UP.

In this thread I brought up the airplane contracts - and if you were current in the news you'd see that Bombardier had contracts to build a new jetliner where the contracts for manufactuer were awarded to Quebec corporations (with Federal loan guarantees and grants) rahter than Ontario.

Pick up a newspaper once and a while - it pays.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...?query=aircraft

AGAIN you choose to be antagonistic, uninformed and belligerent - rather than open, considerate and helpful.

quote:

Originally posted by malek you're mixing things up. We're talking about the 1987 CF18 contracts. Montreal won over Toronto because Montreal's employees gave back 120M$ worth of benefits, which the Toronto employees voted against. Thats the main reason why Montreal was chosen, its Bombardier who said it.

Also millions in subsidies from the Quebec government.

But check this out:

quote:

Bombardier also announced the British government will contribute about $420 million Cdn to support component manufacturing for the new jet at the company�s plant in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...d=1115977573613


Ironic.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker Actually no - YOU ARE MIXING THINGS UP. In this thread I brought up the airplane contracts - and if you were current in the news you'd see that Bombardier had contracts to build a new jetliner where the contracts for manufactuer were awarded to Quebec corporations (with Federal loan guarantees and grants) rahter than Ontario. Pick up a newspaper once and a while - it pays. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...?query=aircraft AGAIN you choose to be antagonistic, uninformed and belligerent - rather than open, considerate and helpful.

chill dood.. we were also talking about the 1986 deal... and he did make a couple of good points (the union deal, etc.)

although I do think overall that he's wrong on this, he's one of the better informed, well read and intelligent posters on this board..... not bad for a Quebecois

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker The Bombardier deal is a great example of this.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...?query=aircraft

The above article is NOT 1986 - IT IS MAY 13 2005!

The two of you can both debate 20 year old decisions at much as you want - I prefer to discuss CURRENT gov't policy/decisions.

The aircraft manufacture in Quebec is a collaborated effort to buy votes in the province of Quebec (in case there is a federal election).

Ontario has a $25 billion tax deficit with the Federal Gov't, stolen taxpayer funds going to Liberal coffers in the province of Quebec, and now a $1 billion Canadian tax-payer funded aircraft contract going to facilities outside of Montreal. This is unacceptable IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker Ontario has a $25 billion tax deficit with the Federal Gov't, stolen taxpayer funds going to Liberal coffers in the province of Quebec, and now a $1 billion Canadian tax-payer funded aircraft contract going to facilities outside of Montreal. This is unacceptable IMO.

Yes, unacceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker Reminds me of that Swampthing tune from the mid 1990s.

you are thinking treefrog by hope in 1993.

lol

As long as Ontario blindly votes Liberal the Liberals will take us for granted and keep screwing us (and the rest of the country) over.

It's time for them to be punished for their corruption. I'd like to see the same thing (or worse) happen to them as what happened to the old PC party when they pulled stunts that were farless damaging than what we have here. Lets face it, ANY party left in power for 13 years +++ is going to stink of corruption. We should have 4 or 8 year term limits.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker Ontario has a $25 billion tax deficit with the Federal Gov't, stolen taxpayer funds going to Liberal coffers in the province of Quebec, and now a $1 billion Canadian tax-payer funded aircraft contract going to facilities outside of Montreal. This is unacceptable IMO.

I don't want to refute your numbers, because i'm not informed about Ontario's posture.

I will give you an example for Quebec. It sends 41B$ a year to Ottawa for all kind of stuff from revenue taxes, gaz tax, EI premiums, etc.

And Quebec recieves 9.1B$ a year in direct transfers (equalization, paiments to individuals, etc.)

Does that make a 32B$ tax deficit for Quebec? no way, there's the debt paiement and some services recieved by Quebec from the federal govt (although fewer and fewer of them).

The real issue (and money siphon), is Ottawa's overhead.

If other Provinces would join the fight for their constitutional rights like Quebec does, Ottawa would back off and there will be:

1-less of overlapping by the Federal, less overhead.
2-less money sent to the Federal, Provinces would keep their monies and would spend it as they see fit.
3-less chaos in our (dying) federation.
4-and the bonus, less separatists, not only in Quebec.

quote:

Originally posted by malek If other Provinces would join the fight for their constitutional rights like Quebec does, Ottawa would back off and there will be: 1-less of overlapping by the Federal, less overhead. 2-less money sent to the Federal, Provinces would keep their monies and would spend it as they see fit. 3-less chaos in our (dying) federation. 4-and the bonus, less separatists, not only in Quebec.

Yup, the fiscal imbalance is the biggest issue in Canada (after corruption/ethics), and has been for a while.

The federal government gets too much in taxes, and gets too involved in provincial matters, while ignoring federal matters (defence, etc.). The provinces meanwhile are starved for cash.

Sadly, most Ontarians are completely ignorant of the subject.

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