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-- Ableton for producing
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quote:

Originally posted by Massive84 Hey Airbase. Two more questions. How is the automation in Ableton? does it work as fast as Reason? One of the reasons i don't wanne switch to Logic is because there the automation is a bit pain and annoying imo. Second thing i really dislike in Logic and really is a MUST for me in any sequencer is an easy sampler like the NN-19. Where i can (for example) pitch, release and open single samples easy and fast, does Ableton have something like that as well? I really want to switch to VST but i need these 2 things.

i love logic mate. i recently switched from reason to logic, and i found it much more easier than i thought, although my brother helped me a lot in it, in the beginning. i completely disagree with you about track automationing and about the sampler thing in logic. mate, track automationing is 1 click in logic, i really like it, just compare logic's automationing with the track automation in cubase which can be really a nightmare, especially on the insert effects side. logic also has a really nice sampler called exs24, i really like it aswell, but if you dont like it, you can even use battery or something other for it. and of course logic has a really clean mixer, which is a huge advantage compared to reason.

all in all i really like logic, but in the future i think i will try ableton live aswell, since i heard really good things about it

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Originally posted by Mycron i love logic mate. i recently switched from reason to logic, and i found it much more easier than i thought, although my brother helped me a lot in it, in the beginning. i completely disagree with you about track automationing and about the sampler thing in logic. mate, track automationing is 1 click in logic, i really like it, just compare logic's automationing with the track automation in cubase which can be really a nightmare, especially on the insert effects side. logic also has a really nice sampler called exs24, i really like it aswell, but if you dont like it, you can even use battery or something other for it. and of course logic has a really clean mixer, which is a huge advantage compared to reason. all in all i really like logic, but in the future i think i will try ableton live aswell, since i heard really good things about it

i know and i agree with you on all parts.

Logic beats Reason in many ways, the effects (so many reverbs and delays) the mixer, sound quality etc.

I do miss a NN-19 thing in it though. But i just can't seem to adept to Logic. Sean tyas spent many hours teaching me the software hehe. And i know the basics now a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Massive84 i know and i agree with you on all parts. Logic beats Reason in many ways, the effects (so many reverbs and delays) the mixer, sound quality etc. I do miss a NN-19 thing in it though. But i just can't seem to adept to Logic. Sean tyas spent many hours teaching me the software hehe. And i know the basics now a bit.

yeah, mate

my brother & sean tyas helped me in learning logic aswell

definitely try it mate, is rocking in my opinion!

Does anyone else having problems with selecting a number of midi/audio-clips and copy/move them in the sequencer? For me its freezing fore some seconds when i have began to drag it.

When I open up my Z3ta+_Virus the computer keyboard stops work in live, does anyone else got this problem?

I like Live alot, but my cpu can't handle as much vst's than cubase did, I suppose, and there is some other small problems, but I'll look at V.5 demo.

yeah, the z3ta screws up the keyboard for Ableton. I think it will be fixed in Ableton 5. Only way to go around it at the moment is by alt-tabbing to another window on your computer and then back, and it should work again until you start working with z3ta again.

What the fuck... does every thread on here have to turn into a "what's your favourite sequencer" discussion?

I myself have been getting fed up with other sequencers and have been thinking of trying Ableton, but nobody can tell me anything conclusive about it.

To the people reading this thread who actually use Ableton Live and know what they're doing with it, I would very much appreciate a few comments from you guys:

- What can Ableton do that Cubase (or any other sequencer) can't?
- What can't Ableton do that those other sequencers can?
- Can anybody actually confirm the claims about Live's CPU usage, i.e. by doing a controlled test using the same VSTs, presets, effects and MIDI data in both Live and Cubase?
- Related: is it possible that these CPU claims relate more to the mixer than the VST performance itself, which wouldn't amount to much if one were using a hardware mixer?
- Any chance we could get even a pros/cons list (even just a couple of items) for Ableton?

I've always been led to believe that Ableton really is in fact a mostly sample/loop-based program for throwing together elements of an already-finished track and mixing them up in new ways. I'd really appreciate hearing the skinny on what it's like to produce in Ableton from scratch. NOT on using it as a trivial ReWire plugin from Reason or some junk, or as a miniscule component attached to Fruityloops, but as an ACTUAL production system.

These are ableton 4 pros and cons imo:

Pros:
- one window interface, no need to switch between hundreds of windows like in cubase
- loop based approach, samples and midi parts both can be stretched which automatically creates multiple copies of it, no need to copy and paste like in most sequencers
- great browser, you can quickly find your samples and vsts, you can even create favorite folders and access them with one click of a button
- great automation, looks like completely taken from logic, but I still think logic's is better hehe
- good plugins, the included plugins are very nice, no need for third party
- QWERTY keyboard as MIDI keyboard: this is great for producers on the road
- easy mapping of MIDI controller: you just turn on MIDI mode and can quikly map your MIDI to most parameters
- color coding: each time you create a new track, ableton automatically creates a new color for the track, makes it easier on the eyes
- straighforward piano roll: even though it's not that powerful, it is very easy to use, basically one tool does all (draws notes, selects notes, etc), no need to constantly switch between tools like in cubase's piano roll
- renders great loops: in v5 you could start using freeze, but in v4 most people will have to render tracks at one point due to CPU overloads. However, ableton creates perfectly looping and loud WAVs
- good time stretch: even better in v5
- fast when it comes to recording audio input
- no midi routing: cubase has nice routing with ability for multi out vsts. Ableton doesn't (if I am correct )
- clear envelopes function: you just click one button and all the envelopes are reset back to 0, very cool
- comes with two cool samplers (simpler and i forget the name of the second one hehe): simpler is very cool, has all the basic functions and is good on cpu. if you plan on creating drums/percussion where each sound resides on an individual track, then just create multiple instances of Simpler. If you want to save further CPU, use only a single instance of that other sampler which has multi slots for samples. It's kind of like battery.
- easy on eyes plugin interfaces: very nicely layed out interfaces of the included plugs. not cluttered like some other VSTs
- session mode: quickly sketch out the progression of the song by activating clips in the session mode. Actually, for me it is not very usefull but for others it might be.


CONS:
- screwy zoom: the zoom is kind of hard to get used to, would be better imo if it had something like cubase or logic
- not enough room for the sequencer: if anybody used logic, it would be great if ableton had that auto zoom function. Right now you have to expand or collapse each track manually, and if you expand few tracks you start to run out of screen space. You will notice that the if you have the browser pannel and plugin/audio pannel open with the sequencer pannel, you don't have much room left for sequencer. Therefore, you will notice the need to constantly colapse the tracks and the pannels to have a good visual overview of the song.
- lots of keybord+mouse combinations: you will notice that you have to use lots of mouse+keyboard shortcuts, which is not too bad in some instances, but I find it was implemented too much (over the top). Sometimes you forget which combination does what hehe
- No audio pool: there is no audio pool like in cubase or logic. Therefore, after you insert the sample into the sequencer, it gets lost alot of the times. You have to browse through 40 tracks to find out where that sample is. Would be nice if each sample used in the song would be listed in some section, like in cubase's audio pool.
- plugin pannel at the bottom hides things: if you have like 4 or more plugs, some will become hidden. You then have to drag with the mouse in this strange position to find the remaining plugs. Weird. Simple scroll bar would have done the job.
- Navigating in the song: when jumping around the song to play different parts it becomes a bit time consumming. Instead of clicking with the mouse on the ruler like in other sequencers, you again have to use keyboard-mouse combinations to do it. Plus, it works a bit different. Hard to explain but you will see for yourself when you try it.
- not meant for dual monitors
- high cpu usage: v4 does have high cpu usage, you will have most of the time constantly render to loops/audio. But then it is also is easy on the eyes to delete the midi tracks and just leave the audio tracks with the loops. However, you then loose the midi data or you have to create another project with midi data and then switch to it when you want to work with midi again to tweak or change things. The freeze in v5 might be the solution for that but I don't hear good opinions about it.
- no redner and add to project function: logic has that function which is very convinient, in ableton you have to look yourself for the wav after it was rendered
- one window layout: it is both pro and con, in some instances it helps and in other it doesn't
- no builtin audio editor: you have to edit in another program
- moving midi/audio parts screws up envelopes: you you move parts new envelope points are created which really buggs me
- previewing samples in the browser changes their temp to match the project. This is nice when dealing with loops but I find alot of the times FX samples and other samples which you want to play at the original tmpo are automatically adjusted to the project's tempo, making it sound weird.
- missing some plugs: v4 doesn't have some needed plugs like arp or flanger but v5 does so can't complain here
- slow with hard drive streaming: after using couple of audio files in the song, clicks and glitches might start happening. This is because the hard drive is not fast enough to process ableton's requests. There is a solution, you can load up each sample into RAM but your RAM will quickly be filled up.
- constant switching between plugin window/audio window/ and midi window: the same pannel is used for all of these. You have to constantly switch between these windows ( shift+tab)
- no shortcut mapping
- no screensets: well, this is not needed because like I said Ableton uses the "one-window-approach". But, sometimes this one window approach gets on my nerves hehe


I think this is about all I can think of right now. Maybe I will add some more later.
At the end of the day you just have to try it for yourself and see if it suits you. For me, logic still is better because I have set it up exactly how I wanted and created environment that suits me very well. I would rank Ableton Live just after logic on my list of sequencers. The workflow in ableton is also very nice but I was able to achieve even faster workflow with logic due to the ability to configure it to the max.

btw. if you find some mistakes then correct me, i am not perfect you know

im gonna check live 5 out once its final

not really interested in the beta atm.

quote:

Originally posted by superddman These are ableton 4 pros and cons imo:

Wow, that definitely summed it up! Thanks a lot for the info, appreciate you taking the time to make that post.

One of these days I am going to get myself a nice fancy G5 and Logic Pro, but for now I'm stuck with the software that's available on PC.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Wow, that definitely summed it up! Thanks a lot for the info, appreciate you taking the time to make that post. One of these days I am going to get myself a nice fancy G5 and Logic Pro, but for now I'm stuck with the software that's available on PC.

np, just had some time at work hehe

you should try out logic before completely switching to it. You don't want to spend all that money for something you dont like.

Also, I thought I could compare a step-by-step workflow for some simple tasks between ableton live and logic. Take into consideration that shortcuts/screensets were used in logic.

Creating lead patten.
Logic:
1) file-new project
2) double click on the arrange to create AudioInst (MIDI) track
3) right click with the mouse, holding drag in the arrange window to create a MIDI part
4) holding down left mouse button on the mixer strip (when you select a track in the arrange view, a corresponding mixer strip shows up on the left side) , insert vst into this AudioInst track. This shows the VST window automatically.
5) using left/right keyboard buttons scroll through the presets to find the desired one.
6) Close the VST window
7) Double click on the MIDI part to open up piano roll
8) Right click with the mouse to draw some notes
9) Press L to turn on the looping mode (this is amazing feature. You just activate it and the midi part loops forever or until you place another midi part)
10) On the ruler, highligh the portion that you want to loop (taking into consideration that loop mode is activated)
11) Press spacebar to play.


Ableton:
1) File-new. 4 tracks will be automatically created. 2 audio and 2 midi. However, lets assume we have used up these automatically created tracks and need one more. ( I could set up Logic to also insert tracks automatically)
2) Using some keyboard+mouse combo (sorry, i forget) , create a new MIDI track
3) The track should be selected already. Highligh a portion on the track that you would like the midi part to take up.
4) Click Shift+M (if I remember correctly). This will create a midi part in the previously highlighted area.
5) switch to the VST browser and find the VST to use and drag the VST from the browser onto the track. This should automatically open up the plugin section at the bottom
6) select the preset section on the plugin, and using up/down arrows navigate through the patches to select desired patch
7) double click on the midi part to open the piano roll at the bottom
8) double click to draw each note
9) drag the midi part to make it as long as you want.
10) using the loop section borders, select the section that you want to play (taking into consideration that loop mode is activated)
11) Press spacebar to play


WOW!!! it looks like it is the same amount of steps if I didn't miss anything. hehe, nice finding.

We should do a race and see who is faster, logic user or ableton live user.

In some areas logic is better and in others ableton. Depends on the task.

However, for me overall, logic is faster. I got to think of some other common tasks that could be compared

Hmm, Logic sounds a lot like Cubase actually. I haven't had a chance to actually try it (don't know how I would ever get that chance without actually getting the rig and the software), but in all honesty it's not even the interface that I care about. It's the speed, stability, and one of the most glaring problems with Cubase, MIDI timing. God help you if you're a Cubase user and you want to connect it to any MIDI hardware. Logic is known quite well for its extremely tight MIDI timing, and that alone warrants consideration.

Ableton's also supposed to be good - a lot of people who have problems with Cubase's MIDI timing report no problems with Ableton. The downside is that Ableton rapes the CPU, and I'm already pushing my limits.

Speaking of Logic and Ableton automatically creating tracks, do either/both of these programs let you create templates? One of the things I like about Cubase is that for new projects I can just open a template with my usual drumkit, instruments, routings, effects, mastering plugins, fader levels etc. all in place. That shaves off a good hour or two of monkey work, so when I have an idea in my ahead I can get it down quickly before I forget it.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Speaking of Logic and Ableton automatically creating tracks, do either/both of these programs let you create templates? One of the things I like about Cubase is that for new projects I can just open a template with my usual drumkit, instruments, routings, effects, mastering plugins, fader levels etc. all in place. That shaves off a good hour or two of monkey work, so when I have an idea in my ahead I can get it down quickly before I forget it.

I don't believe there are templates in ableton but you could just create a template project and always start with that

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Hmm, Logic sounds a lot like Cubase actually.

I would have to disagree with this. I have tried both and for me logic and cubase are very different.

I've heard comments about Abletons audio quality. In cubase and logic etc... you are working with true 16 or 24 bit audio files. Apparently Abletun uses granular re-synthesis to achieve its speed of playback and workflow and this can impact on the audio quality somewhat.

Anyone got any info on this?

quote:

Originally posted by Axolotyl I've heard comments about Abletons audio quality. In cubase and logic etc... you are working with true 16 or 24 bit audio files. Apparently Abletun uses granular re-synthesis to achieve its speed of playback and workflow and this can impact on the audio quality somewhat. Anyone got any info on this?

hmm, interesting, I would also like to find out if this is true.

quote:

Originally posted by superddman hmm, interesting, I would also like to find out if this is true.

I'd guess that this only happens if you have "warp mode" activated on your audio clips. Warp mode lets you choose between 4 different types of timestretching & pitch shifting algorithm. If you have warp mode switched off, Ableton will just play the original unaltered audio clip.

But of course I could be completely wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMaul I'd guess that this only happens if you have "warp mode" activated on your audio clips. Warp mode lets you choose between 4 different types of timestretching & pitch shifting algorithm. If you have warp mode switched off, Ableton will just play the original unaltered audio clip. But of course I could be completely wrong.

nope, you're right on target. the time stretching in Ableton is pretty good for most intents and purposes, but if i'm actually producing a track that has parts that need to be timestretched (usually vocals), I often do it in an audio editing program. this could change with Live 5 though, which has a great sounding "complex" warp mode. even though it takes up a bunch of CPU, it's bound to change the way I work with the program.

quote:

Originally posted by Axolotyl I've heard comments about Abletons audio quality. In cubase and logic etc... you are working with true 16 or 24 bit audio files. Apparently Abletun uses granular re-synthesis to achieve its speed of playback and workflow and this can impact on the audio quality somewhat. Anyone got any info on this?

yep...that's true..there was a few topics on their forum about that and none of the admin denied..they admited acctually that the audio quality it is a little bit poor comparing to other seq.i played a little bit with 5 but didnt test the audio quality...it is working great and it is true that the new feat save your CPU.

Weird...audio quality sounds similar in my rig between Cubase and Live 4.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut One of these days I am going to get myself a nice fancy G5 and Logic Pro, but for now I'm stuck with the software that's available on PC.

I think that you could try logic on your PC via Linux.
There is an emulator for linux that can emulate Mac OSX.
The problem cames with the hardware, i don't know how that work but I'll gonna try it sometime.

quote:

Originally posted by Airbase yeah, the z3ta screws up the keyboard for Ableton. I think it will be fixed in Ableton 5. Only way to go around it at the moment is by alt-tabbing to another window on your computer and then back, and it should work again until you start working with z3ta again.

Thanks for the tip Jezper.
I consider to not use the z3ta in ableton, it drains alot of cpu.

Would i be wrong in saying that Mixmeister is basiclly the same concept as albeton. And for that matter although not as accirate Acid ?

Obviously albeton is way more advanced in terms of what u can do, but is the basic concept of an "automated mixing" the same ?

using the term Auotmated losely btw hehe

A question about ableton, when i import a Vocal, when i align it up to the kick etc is automatically in time with the kick etc?

thanks

Well, you can mix tracks with Acid as well, thats about as far as it goes. There is so much else you can do in Ableton, and so much else you can do in Acid. I use them rewired.

quote:

Originally posted by Project 7 A question about ableton, when i import a Vocal, when i align it up to the kick etc is automatically in time with the kick etc? thanks

disable WARP and enable again...and your loop/sample will be on the same bpm as your master tempo.

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